Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

bk

Ernest wrote: »

This already well-circulated chart of traffic/people densities does not detract in any way from my point that "creating" bus corridors and on-street tram lines merely takes away existing street/road resource.

What you mean is that is takes away road space for the small minority (20%) of people who get into the city by car.

While of course ignoring the fact that it greatly improves the road space available to the vast majority of people who get into the city by bus, tram, walking and cycling (80%).

Ernest wrote: »

Even this chart demonstrates that the most efficient mass transit mode is that provided by off-street rail - either heavy rail (eg Dart) or light rail (trams, like Luas, running off-street like such as is being mooted for Metro North and being implemented in Luas Cross-City, north of Broadstone.)

I'm of course a big fan of MN and DU, but the point I'm making, even in cities like London, with amazing underground systems, they are still removing cars from the city centers (e.g. congestion charging) to make more room for buses, trams, cycling and walking.

I think a lot of motorists think, ah build underground rail, so those nasty public transport users are out of my way and I can continue to drive into the city.

I see the opinion being expressed all the time and it just isn't going to work that way.

First of all it will take decades to built MN and DU and we need to solve the congestion problems today and that means removing cars and giving more street space to buses, trams and cycling.

Also once MN/DU are built, they won't cover the whole city, so you will still need the road space for buses and trams for people coming in from all the other areas.

The reality is their simply is no space for cars which are by far the least effective form of transport in our cities. This isn't unusual you see it in pretty much every single European city, even one with great undergrounds.

Dyr

the funny thing about dublin is the pedestrians are usually the ones who get squeezed to make space

Bray Head

Out of curiosity, is there any corridor which manages this hypothetical bus traffic of 9,000 per hour in Dublin at the moment? That's about 100 fully loaded double deckers. So one going each way just over every minute.

Does anywhere reach this at the moment? Say 8am - 9am on OCS, Con Colbert rd or the N11 at Donnybrook?


The biggest impediment to this kind of flow would be lack of priority at junctions and high dwell times due to single doors and pay-the-driver.

bk

According to the traffic count on the quays prior to the recent changes, the quays do.

118 buses an hour at Bachelors Walk, averaging 75 passengers per bus (note some DB buses can take up to 120) gives you just under 9,000.

The same count found just 610 cars across what was then two lanes! Showing how inefficient cars are. There were actually 542 cyclists counted!!

LeinsterDub

ClovenHoof wrote: »

ERSI came put against the Dublin Metro today.

So that's the final nail in the coffin as the politicians and senior civil servants now have the "bad cop" to justify scrapping it.

They didn't really. Listen to the link above. They just said they need to build the density to support it.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

I think a lot of motorists think, ah build underground rail, so those nasty public transport users are out of my way and I can continue to drive into the city.

actually what they think is "if there was an underground, all these other jerks in cars might use that and leave the roads clear for me"

Grandeeod

ClovenHoof wrote: »

ERSI came put against the Dublin Metro today.

So that's the final nail in the coffin as the politicians and senior civil servants now have the "bad cop" to justify scrapping it.

As far back as 2003, The ERSI were more in favor of extra bus capacity rather that a Metro project. They weren't mad about the luas either despite it being near completion at the time.

Fast forward to 2009/10 and they were still questioning the worthiness of a Metro solution. Now in 2017, they hold a similar opinion hidden behind density and the fact that it won't solve Dublin's traffic problem on it's own. But we know that already. The ESRI seem to favor spending the money on a wider variety of PT projects.

marno21

Shane Ross wrote:

Funding of over €700 million has been allocated under the Government's Capital Plan for planning, design and to begin construction of new Metro North. Funding in the initial years of the Capital Plan is for planning and design work with construction to commence in 2021 with passenger services starting in 2027.

The NTA and Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) have commenced preparatory work on the planning and design of new Metro North and a dedicated project Steering Group has been established which is meeting on a regular basis. The NTA, in collaboration with TII, is undertaking an option analysis and selection study of possible metro alignments and station locations. Arising from this work a final route and station configuration will be established. It is my understanding that the NTA and TII expect that this process will be complete by the end of 2017, after which a public consultation process will be undertaken in 2018.

Latest from Minister Ross.

Van.Bosch

Only in Ireland could we have a “new” metro when the original wasn’t even started!

wakka12

marno21 wrote: »

Latest from Minister Ross.

Well thats very encouraging at least! seems like this might actually happen now

Grandeeod

wakka12 wrote: »

Well thats very encouraging at least! seems like this might actually happen now

I could pick many other similar statements from previous ministers over the last 12 years. It means nothing. In fact this latest statement means less than statements made by Noel Dempsey circa 2009/10. If we were going with the original MN plan and starting construction next year, I'd be more confident. But this new Metro North or Dublin Metro is a reinvention of the wheel that will inevitably not get built due to lack of money or a change in Government.

Chivito550

I'm really confused. Didn't we already have New Metro North announced in 2015?

Does that not make this New New Metro North?

AlmightyCushion

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm really confused. Didn't we already have New Metro North announced in 2015?

Does that not make this New New Metro North?

I think this one is called I can't believe it's not new metro north.

bk

Chivito550 wrote: »

I'm really confused. Didn't we already have New Metro North announced in 2015?

Does that not make this New New Metro North?

The original Metro North was fully planned in detail and ready to go. But then the recession hit and it never went ahead.

There was some talk in 2015 about a "new" Metro North, maybe some reports and studies done into it, but no actual real detailed plans. What seems to be happening now is the real detailed plans for this project. Route selection, design, etc.

plodder

I wonder how much of the €700 million will be spent on "redesign" work that basically gets us back to where we were before the original Metro North was cancelled. Sometimes I think (cynically) the various design consultancies that do this work, are just as happy if nothing actually gets built. It just keeps getting redesigned.

ClovenHoof

Grandeeod wrote: »

I could pick many other similar statements from previous ministers over the last 12 years. It means nothing. In fact this latest statement means less than statements made by Noel Dempsey circa 2009/10. If we were going with the original MN plan and starting construction next year, I'd be more confident. But this new Metro North or Dublin Metro is a reinvention of the wheel that will inevitably not get built due to lack of money or a change in Government.

The Steering Group.. ie another Quango.

Sam Russell

I have been thinking that maybe they could divide MN into three sections and do the easy bits first.

Consider the Swords Airport bit as phase one and the Airport to Phibsboro or wherever it goes underground as phase two, and the underground bit as phase three. The depot would be at the airport or nearby and the Airport station would be part of phase one.

The Clongriffin Spur could be included in phase one as well, and could be Dart or Metro.

Just a thought.

CreativeSen

The 2015 report on Metro North concludes that the best option (economic, value for money, greatest impact on commuters) is the Light Rail 7 option or "Optimized Metro North". The report, to be fair to it, is pretty comprehensive and goes into some great detail on why Optimized Metro North as opposed Metro North, Dart Spur, Luas extension or new bus corridors would have a greater impact. Some of the arguments are very compelling.

My only concern is the lack of connectivity to the other networks. Optimized Metro North is designed to work with the the future transport network in the Dublin Area. It connects with Commuter Rail at Drumcondra and LUAS at O Connell St and St Stephens Green. It does not connect with Intercity or DART as they are currently designed.

The assumption is made in the study that it will connect with DART services in St Stephens Green when the Underground DART is built. Will the Underground DART be built?

Sam Russell

CreativeSen wrote: »

The 2015 report on Metro North concludes that the best option (economic, value for money, greatest impact on commuters) is the Light Rail 7 option or "Optimized Metro North". The report, to be fair to it, is pretty comprehensive and goes into some great detail on why Optimized Metro North as opposed Metro North, Dart Spur, Luas extension or new bus corridors would have a greater impact. Some of the arguments are very compelling.

My only concern is the lack of connectivity to the other networks. Optimized Metro North is designed to work with the the future transport network in the Dublin Area. It connects with Commuter Rail at Drumcondra and LUAS at O Connell St and St Stephens Green. It does not connect with Intercity or DART as they are currently designed.

The assumption is made in the study that it will connect with DART services in St Stephens Green when the Underground DART is built. Will the Underground DART be built?

Of course if they electrified the Connolly to Maynooth line, Drumcondra would be a Dart Station.

Dyr

Metro: The North Remembers

Metro: North And Norther

Chivito550

bk wrote: »

The original Metro North was fully planned in detail and ready to go. But then the recession hit and it never went ahead.

There was some talk in 2015 about a "new" Metro North, maybe some reports and studies done into it, but no actual real detailed plans. What seems to be happening now is the real detailed plans for this project. Route selection, design, etc.

Plans seemed detailed enough in 2015.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metro-north-projected-to-start-running-in-12-years-time-1.2371793?mode=amp

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2372633!/image/image.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.png

CreativeSen

Chivito550 wrote: »

Plans seemed detailed enough in 2015.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metro-north-projected-to-start-running-in-12-years-time-1.2371793?mode=amp

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.2372633!/image/image.png_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.png

This is the full report

ClovenHoof

plodder wrote: »

Sometimes I think (cynically) the various design consultancies that do this work, are just as happy if nothing actually gets built. It just keeps getting redesigned.

Let's not forget the so called Environmental Editor at the Irish Times, Frank McDonald and his bizzare fetish for a war memorial devoted to imperialism, concentration camps and apartheid in Stephen Green. How that was more important than the Interconnector and Metro.

wakka12

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Let's not forget the so called Environmental Editor at the Irish Times, Frank McDonald and his bizzare fetish for a war memorial devoted to imperialism, concentration camps and apartheid in Stephen Green. How that was more important than the Interconnector and Metro.

Surely the arch would be moved somewhere else?

ClovenHoof

wakka12 wrote: »

Surely the arch would be moved somewhere else?

It was going to be put right back where it was after the project was completed. But Frank McDonald became near psychotic at it even being touched. Go look at the Irish Times archive. I recall reading his rants at the time and thinking he was either mentally unhinged or part of the "delay it, kill it" agenda.

Idbatterim

this whole thing is beyond farcical, they are now going to allow taller buildings and single aspect apartments. a decision was made to ditch this several years ago, in a very different time, growth and optimisim wise! popiulation growth is surging again ahead of their forecasts. The "irishness" of this is frankly unbelievable...

sure should we not just agree to come up with a new scheme every year based on changing figures or which way the politicial wind is blowing and never build it?!

strassenwo!f

Sam Russell wrote: »

It really depends on the number of stops. The Darts can travel at up to 100 Km/hr at least. (The earlier trains have a max of 100 k,/hr and later ones 110 km/hr)

I think 45 mins either side of the centre of the city, which gives a radius of up to 45 km. Including stops, I think 30 km is about as far as would be reasonable. Bray is 30 mins from CC, with Greystones another 7 mins or so. Maybe if the traffic was there, Wicklow could be done, but the single track renders that moot. However, Bray is slow between Dunlaoughrie and Dalkey, so not a good measure.

The problems arise from driver shift patterns and passenger patterns - there is no point in going out 30 km with an empty train after the first 10 km. Maynooth is an excellent destination.

I know I've been banned by this moderator for straying off-topic on threads related to Dublin's future public transport system, but this surely takes the biscuit.

Nary a mention of metro north in that post, or most of the previous page.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I know I've been banned by this moderator for straying off-topic on threads related to Dublin's future public transport system, but this surely takes the biscuit.

Nary a mention of metro north in that post, or most of the previous page.

Mod:
You were banned for repeated back seat modding and here you are back at it again. If you have a problem with a post - report it.

The off topic posts will be moved when I get time. Meanwhile take a 7 day holiday.

Sam Russell

Mod:
I have moved posts relating to electrification of rail around Dublin to a new thread.

Hope that helps. A few other posts were deleted as trolling or off topic.

roadmaster

Looking at the most recent map of the metro. Would they not have being better off running it to Connolly station instead of o O'Connell street. In an ideal world i would have built a new busaras in Connolly station car park. Then you would have a complete transport hub with bus,rail,luas,metro all within the same area of each other. They could sell the current busaras to help fund it and move social welfare to new offices.In the future if the DU ever gets going it could also connect in at the hub. I know by moving the metro to Connolly would not be the same as a station in o O'Connell street but its only a ten minute walk or 5 minutes by luas.