Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

CreativeSen

Bambi wrote: »

Just the usual guff but the NTA have no business trying to stop developments just on spec.

Im sure the local SF Councillor will be the first person in line to complain and cry foul when they have to:
- demolish the retail unit to make room for construction of Metro North
- spend an extra few 100k to move metro north to accommodate the retail unit
- the slow down of construction because of quick handed objections from people like them

Whats needed is joint up planning between central govt, local authorities, communities, independent researchers and associated agencies like the NTA.

I say well done to the NTA for this objection as it will hopefully force a conversation that must be had about what MN will look like at a local level.

I also say well done to the Sinn Fein for their ability to create a headline out of nothing.

Dyr

CreativeSen wrote: »

Im sure the local SF Councillor will be the first person in line to complain and cry foul when they have to:
- demolish the retail unit to make room for construction of Metro North
- spend an extra few 100k to move metro north to accommodate the retail unit
- the slow down of construction because of quick handed objections from people like them

Whats needed is joint up planning between central govt, local authorities, communities, independent researchers and associated agencies like the NTA.

I say well done to the NTA for this objection as it will hopefully force a conversation that must be had about what MN will look like at a local level.

I also say well done to the Sinn Fein for their ability to create a headline out of nothing.

Oh right, its a SF thing, it will console you to know that the local FF councillor is just as vocal.

And they're absolutely right, the NTA can't freeze everything in amber for a unicorn project that's been stuck in the pipeline for over a decade just on the off chance it actually happens.

In fact, there was planning permission for a far bigger shopping centre on that site granted before Metro North was even a thing so it's really just the NTA trying to pull a fast one, while ignoring the prime space across the road that was specifically kept undeveloped just for their Metro station

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

Oh right, its a SF thing, it will console you to know that the local FF councillor is just as vocal.

And they're absolutely right, the NTA can't freeze everything in amber for a unicorn project that's been stuck in the pipeline for over a decade just on the off chance it actually happens.

In fact, there was planning permission for a far bigger shopping centre on that site granted before Metro North was even a thing so it's really just the NTA trying to pull a fast one, while ignoring the prime space across the road that was specifically kept undeveloped just for their Metro station

But if they didn't, well we'd have more of this kind of thing:
http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/22/most-popular-liffey-cycle-route-option-may-be-blocked-by-planned-building/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-liffey-bridge-put-on-hold-due-to-dart-underground-1.2712750

If people want to get angry at someone, direct it at Shane Ross and Paschal Donohue, because then we might actually get progress on Metro North.

Also, it's worth noting that officially New Metro North is progressing, so it is most certainly not 'frozen in amber'. Officially.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

But if they didn't, well we'd have more of this kind of thing:
http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/22/most-popular-liffey-cycle-route-option-may-be-blocked-by-planned-building/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/new-liffey-bridge-put-on-hold-due-to-dart-underground-1.2712750

If people want to get angry at someone, direct it at Shane Ross and Paschal Donohue, because then we might actually get progress on Metro North.

Also, it's worth noting that officially New Metro North is progressing, so it is most certainly not 'frozen in amber'. Officially.

In much the same way as glaciers and continents can be said to be moving

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In much the same way as glaciers and continents can be said to be moving

I'm talking about from the perspective of protecting land/real estate for future construction. The project is definitely ongoing from that POV - a Railway Order is due to be lodged sometime next year, for example, the public consultation for the new plans will happen next year too.

What can the NTA be expected to do here? They've been told by the government that construction will begin in 2021, and they've already started the tender process. I don't know the exact timeline, but I'd imagine they can't start actually CPO-ing things until further on in the project.

Don't get me wrong, I wish Metro North was starting construction tomorrow, using the original, still existing Railway Order and permission, but I genuinely don't know why anyone would think NTA shouldn't be blocking construction on land that they will need to CPO down the line?

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm talking about from the perspective of protecting land/real estate for future construction. The project is definitely ongoing from that POV - a Railway Order is due to be lodged sometime next year, for example, the public consultation for the new plans will happen next year too.

What can the NTA be expected to do here? They've been told by the government that construction will begin in 2021, and they've already started the tender process. I don't know the exact timeline, but I'd imagine they can't start actually CPO-ing things until further on in the project.

Don't get me wrong, I wish Metro North was starting construction tomorrow, using the original, still existing Railway Order and permission, but I genuinely don't know why anyone would think NTA shouldn't be blocking construction on land that they will need to CPO down the line?

Weren't we due an announcement in October or November?

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Weren't we due an announcement in October or November?

I think people were expecting them to actually outline something in the capital investment plan or whatever it was called, but of course, here we are, we may not even have a government next week.

Dyr

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In much the same way as glaciers and continents can be said to be moving

I don't think continents or glaciers ever reverse or suddenly start moving towards certain consitiuencies

Sam Russell

Bambi wrote: »

Looks like the NTA are trying to put the kibosh on a Lidl being built in Ballymun, presumably to try keep the whole site greenfield for Metro North. Despite being made aware at every stage of the process what was being planned

Sorry lads you have to stick or twist, can't just sit there trying to hold all the cards forever.

There is a Lidl 2 km from Ballymun - one in Santry and one in Finglass - both 2 km from Ballymun. There are also Aldi stores a similar distance.

They should have the plans drawn for the Metro by now, are they due to build it soon - real soon.

marno21

Latest from Sean de Rossa

Shane Ross wrote:

The NTA and Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) have commenced preparatory work on the planning and design of new Metro North and a dedicated project Steering Group has been established which is meeting on a regular basis. The design and planning work being undertaken at present on the new Metro North project, will continue to use the most up-to-date information available on population and employment projections to ensure that the final design and service pattern is correctly calibrated to fully meet the transport needs of the corridor, to ensure that due consideration is given to Fingal County Council development objectives while noting that zoning decisions are a matter for council members. The NTA, in collaboration with TII, is undertaking an option analysis and selection study of possible metro alignments and station locations. Arising from this work a final route and station configuration will be established. It is my understanding that the NTA and TII expect that this process will be complete by the end of 2017, after which a public consultation process will be undertaken in 2018.

2018 will finally see some movement here.

monument

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a Lidl 2 km from Ballymun - one in Santry and one in Finglass - both 2 km from Ballymun. There are also Aldi stores a similar distance.

They should have the plans drawn for the Metro by now, are they due to build it soon - real soon.

2km is a long enough distance to be walking with shopping bags, but Lidl in Santry is just about 2km to the junction of Santry Ave and Main Street, Ballymun.

The Lidl in Finglas is nearly 4km from the Main Street in Ballymun.

Ballymun has a high level of car-less households, and the cycling and public transport options between Ballymun and Santry of Finglas aren’t great.

Given the width of the streetscape and and the lack of building directly beside the street between the arts centre and the old shopping centre, I can’t see why Metro would need the land planned for Lidl.

Ballymun needs a local large supermarket and hopefully local jobs. Is it really right to block that when we’re not talking about a confined route or site?

Maybe the NTA are planning to keep all the current bus and traffic lanes and still have metro at grade?

jd

monument wrote: »

I can’t see why Metro would need the land planned for Lidl.

Maybe they are looking at a route like this

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

Latest from Sean de Rossa



2018 will finally see some movement here.

Sadly that just seems like word salad regurgitation from stuff we already knew

Grandeeod

MJohnston wrote: »

Sadly that just seems like word salad regurgitation from stuff we already knew

And already done many moons ago.

2018 (unless were at the polls in a few weeks) will be a complete rehash of nearly 10 years ago. If we do go to the polls and FF lead the next Government, expect them to reinvent the wheel yet again. More studies/consultations etc. etc. blah blah blah. Then we'll have a new generation in here getting all excited about a metro and having not a clue about what went before while still nothing happens.

Idbatterim

Can I make an observation to them? The project could be made cheaper if we had 10m long trams and platforms...

Idbatterim

Grandeeod wrote: »

And already done many moons ago.

2018 (unless were at the polls in a few weeks) will be a complete rehash of nearly 10 years ago. If we do go to the polls and FF lead the next Government, expect them to reinvent the wheel yet again. More studies/consultations etc. etc. blah blah blah. Then we'll have a new generation in here getting all excited about a metro and having not a clue about what went before while still nothing happens.

ah come in now grandeeod. Isn't that a bit harsh? They are coming up with an inferior scheme that will cost more. The geniuses are reinventing the wheel ... credit where credit is due ..

CatInABox

Metro North project to include Luas Green Line instead of that being a separate project, according to the latest reports.

The lack of Metro North progress is also holding back plans for a pedestrianised Stephens Green.


I don't normally quote full articles, but I'll make an exception in this case, what with it being the first "news" about the revised plan. If everyone could click the above times link to give the the views, that'd be great, thanks! Also, Mods, if full articles aren't allowed, please edit it out, or let me know and I'll do it.

A revised route for Metro North, from Swords to St Stephen’s Green, will be announced early next year and is expected to include an extension linking it with the Luas green line.

A planned tunnel for Metro North between Dublin City University and St Stephen’s Green will now continue south to intersect the Luas tracks, which would be upgraded to a Metro line. Passengers will be able to board at stops in south Dublin and disembark at Drumcondra, DCU, the airport or Swords without changing.

As well as providing a fast north-south link, the extra capacity of a Metro line would allow for new housing and office development along the route. The Luas green line is operating at capacity at peaks times and the service will need to be extended as development continues along the line in areas such as Sandyford and Cherrywood.

Mark Gleeson, a spokesman for Rail Users Ireland, a lobby group, welcomed the plans. “The green line Luas should have been built to Dart or Metro standard originally. From day one the green line has struggled to keep pace with passenger demand,” he said.

The National Transport Authority confirmed that a revised route would be identified by the end of this year and that this would be followed by public consultation at the start of next year. “To work the alignment into a consultation, documents, maps, and graphics will clearly take a bit of time and work,” Dermot O’Gara, a spokesman for the authority, said.

As part of the revised plans, aimed at reducing disruption and costs, transport planners have begun looking at a reduced number of underground stops. Part of the work is understood to be investigating building a Metro station using the roadway at St Stephen’s Green East, rather than the previous plan of digging up the park on the Grafton Street side.

As the changes are yet to be confirmed, the project is delaying pedestrianisation of the corner of St Stephen’s Green at Grafton Street.

Transport planners for the Metro route are following the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy, published in 2015. It had outlined the need for more capacity on the Luas green line, and this was addressed last month when funding was announced for more longer trams

Mr Gleeson said he was concerned that cost-cutting on the Metro project, such as reducing the lengths of underground platforms from 90m to 60m, would limit the capacity of the route.

“We can always get more trains but the tunnels and stations can’t be altered,” he said.

He added that there was a “once in a lifetime option” to make provisions for a branch line to be built later towards Harold’s Cross and Tallaght, as envisaged by plans drawn up in 2001. He said that plans for a further alignment from Swords towards the Dublin-Belfast rail line should also go ahead.

MJohnston

Including the Green Line upgrade in it is a good idea - it's a relatively cheap subsection compared to the overall Metro North project, and it suddenly makes it palatable to all those precious southside voters. I'm sure if Shane Ross gets to announce a Stepaside Metro station, he'll be all over it...

Idbatterim

They must really be crossing their fingers and hoping for another recession so they can get out of building it!

I hope the new cRoss city is so mobbed from Saturday, that it will put end to the bull**** of 60m platforms on metro north!

Speaking of the green line. I really hope they get working on extending it to bray and the extending the new broombridge line out to past the m50 with a big park and ride. I'd really question any more Luas on street lines!!!

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Including the Green Line upgrade in it is a good idea - it's a relatively cheap subsection compared to the overall Metro North project, and it suddenly makes it palatable to all those precious southside voters. I'm sure if Shane Ross gets to announce a Stepaside Metro station, he'll be all over it...

I'd rather they included the relatively cheap subsection from DCU past Ballymun. I've no idea how they think this fudge will work.

wakka12

CatInABox wrote: »

Metro North project to include Luas Green Line instead of that being a separate project, according to the latest reports.

The lack of Metro North progress is also holding back plans for a pedestrianised Stephens Green.


I don't normally quote full articles, but I'll make an exception in this case, what with it being the first "news" about the revised plan. If everyone could click the above times link to give the the views, that'd be great, thanks! Also, Mods, if full articles aren't allowed, please edit it out, or let me know and I'll do it.

That render of pedestrianised stephens green looks lovely

wakka12

Idbatterim wrote: »

They must really be flveissing fingers and hoping for another recession so they can get out of building it!

I hope the new cRoss city is so mobbed from Saturday, that it will put end to the bulk**** of 60m platforms on metro north!

Speaking of the green line. I really hope they get working on extending it to bray and the extending the new broombridge line out to past the m50 with a big park and ride. I'd really question any more Luas on street lines!!!

Gosh luas green line will be absolutely maddd at rush hour if the entirety of bray is added
But I guess luas is a good amenity for everyone connected to it as its barely ever busy during non peak hours. I actually think luas does its job very well outside peak hours and is very handy

wakka12

Mark gleeson seems to be the only one with his head screwed on right, a little forward thinking and concern for the future implications is good to see

strassenwo!f

Yes, Mr Gleeson is wonderful, I'm told.

He was on here, for years, almost everyday, telling us everyday that there should be an interchange the metro and some cross-city lineat the top of Grafton Street. Now, apparently, there's a new idea

Muahahaha

That idea of placing a station on SSG east doesnt sound like a good plan to me. The top of Grafton St has heavier footfall and it makes more sense to place it there IMO. Even if it means digging up the park. We are only going to do this once so getting it right is imperative. As is having 90m platforms from day one.

strassenwo!f

Muahahaha wrote: »

That idea of placing a station on SSG east doesnt sound like a good plan to me. The top of Grafton St has heavier footfall and it makes more sense to place it there IMO. Even if it means digging up the park. We are only going to do this once so getting it right is imperative. As is having 90m platforms from day one.

I agree with most of this, and I would question why it would be necessary to even dig up sections of the park. There's a lot of space between the current LUAS tracks and the Hotel/St. Stephen's Green Centre/RCSI.

Even if the original plan (which I do not favour) for the interconnector were implemented, with a station on St. Stephen's Green North and North King Street, it would have to be quite remote from a metro station on St. Stephen's Green East, and thus provide quite poor intechange opportunities.

An alternative station for the interconnector, which might provide better interchange opportunities with a metro station at St. Stephen's Green East, would have to involve an even greater curve than was originally proposed for the interconnector between Pearse Station and St. Stephen's Green in the plan which was given approval but was allowed to lapse.

I would very seriously question the wisdom of connecting this Swords metro line to St. Stephen's Green with the Green LUAS, and upgrading that line. A certain amount - which I do not have the resources to quantify - of the pressure on both the red and green lines comes from the fact that their catchment areas are considerably larger than they would be in other cities of a similar size to Dublin, with several tram/metro lines effectively competing against each other.

If Dublin ever builds a metro line between Swords and St. Stephen's Green, I would be very much in favour of continuing the metro route from Swords towards the South-East of the city, perhaps Harold's Cross - Kimmage - Walkinstown on one branch and Rathmines - Rathgar - Terenure - Rathfarnham on another.

It has already been pretty much established that there is no suitable overground route for a LUAS line to those areas of the city, so, in my view, if the Swords metro is to be extended, the opportunity should be grasped to serve such locations, while the TBM is in the ground.

Building that would provide a better public transport service for the areas in question, and, I believe, would also relieve pressure on the Red and Green lines.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

If Dublin ever builds a metro line between Swords and St. Stephen's Green, I would be very much in favour of continuing the metro route from Swords towards the South-East of the city, perhaps Harold's Cross - Kimmage - Walkinstown on one branch and Rathmines - Rathgar - Terenure - Rathfarnham on another.

.

I think you mean South West.

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I would very seriously question the wisdom of connecting this Swords metro line to St. Stephen's Green with the Green LUAS, and upgrading that line. A certain amount - which I do not have the resources to quantify - of the pressure on both the red and green lines comes from the fact that their catchment areas are considerably larger than they would be in other cities of a similar size to Dublin, with several tram/metro lines effectively competing against each other.

If Dublin ever builds a metro line between Swords and St. Stephen's Green, I would be very much in favour of continuing the metro route from Swords towards the South-East of the city, perhaps Harold's Cross - Kimmage - Walkinstown on one branch and Rathmines - Rathgar - Terenure - Rathfarnham on another.

And you would be dead wrong, continuing the Metro south along the green is an absolute no brainer.

For a relatively very small upgrade cost, it opens up the ability to build tens of thousands of new apartments in south Dublin very close to the line.

The housing crisis being a national issue, makes this a very easy sell and overall makes the entire Metro project a politically much easier sell.

Going South West has two major issues with it:

1) It will cost at least 10 times more then just upgrading the Green line due to far more tunnelling and underground stations.

2) The areas you mention are pretty mature areas, with little free space for new apartments to be built.

While the people living in these areas of course deserve good quality public transport too, the combination of much higher cost and very little space for population growth and thus doing little to solve the housing crisis makes it very much not a priority in comparison.

I do believe we will some day get a branch off the Metro heading South West, but it definitely doesn't make any sense to do it before upgrading the Green line.

Again I'll remind people Dublin Metro isn't about a Metro to the airport, that is just the cherry on top. It is about opening up the land in Swords allowing us to build homes for another 40,000 people there and tens of thousands of more very badly needed apartments in the south of Dublin along the Green line.

Idbatterim

when they extend the luas or metro to bray. Can they spur off another line south which is pretty much all greenfield and put in tens of thousands of apartments and houses along the line? along with park and ride off n11?

MJohnston

Idbatterim wrote: »

when they extend the luas or metro to bray. Can they spur off another line south which is pretty much all greenfield and put in tens of thousands of apartments and houses along the line? along with park and ride off n11?

South where? Into the Wicklow mountains?