Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

CatInABox

D Trent wrote: »

There's a mistake there

Response deadline 31-7-2017.
Or have I got that wrong ???

It's not wrong. The tender has already been awarded to a company(which does alright work, as far as I can see), so I'd assume that the everything had to be in by then, and that it took this long to award it.

D Trent

Ah I see thanks.

lateconnection

Ok, long post, sorry, but here goes...
Over the past few weeks, I have done a lot of looking through various files on the net and stuff to do with MN, because I just haven't been able to get my head around why the govt won't just build the original MN. The planning permission is valid until 2021, all design work is done, no need to go through ABP all over again etc. It would seem to anyone that it would be a no brainer to build the original. Yes, it costs more, however it has a greater degree of segregation and no at grade running through Ballymun and has better city centre stop options.

Other than political indifference and funding issues, I couldn't find any other obvious reasons as to why we couldn't just build the original MN.

Until last week, when I found something interesting.

I have gone through the original MN railway order documents by using the library section of the TII website and the Wayback Machine, and I have discovered that there is one significant thing that is impeding the construction of original MN: Luas Cross City.

Take a look at this drawing for the original MN station at Stephen's Green: http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/17-LMN000TO107016A.pdf

Look closely at the drawing and you will see there is something that says "outline of proposed underground structure". Look at the area of the green near the Fusilier's Arch and around the top of Grafton Street. The Luas Cross City tracks run right over the proposed underground structure for the ticket hall of the station. Of course, to build the underground station, they need to dig down in the area that is the outline of the underground structure. Of course, now the new LCC tracks are impeding them from doing that. Because in order to excavate the underground structure, they would need to remove the new LCC tracks and power wires and then reinstate them once work is done, 5-6 years later.


If they did this, it would of course delay the opening of Luas Cross City by 5-6 years. They aren't just suddenly going to close a brand new Luas line for 5-6 years to build MN. Of course, they could if they wanted, but it would make them look like idiots after having spent 368m on it and having to take up brand new tracks and remove new overhead wires to build MN.


It's the same story at the sites needed for the O' Connell Bridge station, the Luas Cross City tracks run right over the areas that they need to excavate the station boxes in. Here are the OCB station drawings:

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/07-LMN000TO107006A.pdf
http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/railway-orders/eis-metro-north/12-LMN000TO107011A.

Notice in the drawings that it says "outline of future Luas BX Line", because back in 2009-10, it was always assumed that MN would be built before LCC. Obviously, a lot changed due to funding issues that stopped MN from progressing, and the Luas was built first.

However, from looking at what I have found, I can see why they now want to build a station at Stephen's Green East rather than the site originally proposed. LCC impedes them from building it in the original location

I am not saying that this is the only reason why original MN isn't being built, but any redesign must be future-proof.

Idbatterim

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Some comments from the Taoiseach on Metro North today following Luas Cross City launch.

Luas Cross City officially launched today and it will 'improve our quality of life' - Leo Varadkar

If they cared enough they would build original scheme. They more than anyone know how important timing is. We have pp now and perfect timing! The stars have aligned!

Idbatterim

If the above is true. Luas cross city has become an even bigger joke in my opinion!

Metro north is a game changer. Luas cross city is a very slow, very expensive and very disruptive.

Is there any other city in the world of over a million, that funnels everything down one corridor?

MJohnston

The fact that the Metro North alignment drawings contain the Luas route, and that the Luas Cross City alignment drawings contain outlines of the Metro North underground sections, suggests to me that they weren't planning on doing a full excavation in order to hollow out the MN station structures.

Otherwise this would have been a kind of incompetent planning by RPA/TII that I actually don't believe they've shown before - as opposed to the various other entities involved with infrastructure construction like the government or DCC. The timeline of MN and BXD was never properly solidified, but I'd think it insane if the RPA didn't put plans in place for BXD to come first, and how that would impact MN construction.

xper

MJohnston wrote: »

The fact that the Metro North alignment drawings contain the Luas route, and that the Luas Cross City alignment drawings contain outlines of the Metro North underground sections, suggests to me that they weren't planning on doing a full excavation in order to hollow out the MN station structures.

Otherwise this would have been a kind of incompetent planning by RPA/TII that I actually don't believe they've shown before - as opposed to the various other entities involved with infrastructure construction like the government or DCC. The timeline of MN and BXD was never properly solidified, but I'd think it insane if the RPA didn't put plans in place for BXD to come first, and how that would impact MN construction.

Planners plan for what they are told to plan for. They didn't waste money and time creating a plan for BXD to come before MN because they were being told to plan for both and that MN would be first. Then Crash-Banks-IMF and the politicians turn around and say MN is shelved and proceed with BXD. Yes, it was pointed out at the time that this compromised the MN construction plan. No one gave a f**k.
I am sure that a revised construction plan could be devised to build the original MN with BXD in place since the final product of both plans were designed to exist alongside each other and engineers are clever feckers generally but the space restrictions, safety concerns and other compromises would undoubtedly add significant time and costs above the original plan.
Anyway its moot, it'll be NMN or nothing

MJohnston

xper wrote: »

Yes, it was pointed out at the time that this compromised the MN construction plan. No one gave a f**k.

Have you got a link to any articles about that? It's something I'm not willing to buy just offhand.

annfield1978

Tenders for Consultancy Services for New Metro North were submitted last Friday

Dardania

Nah, it can still be built in the original location:

AngryLips

I would be surprised to see stops like Cowper continuing to exist in a metro-ised green line. Also, converting most of Green line to Metro would leave what's left in a bit of a limbo IMO: a city centre section that stretches from Broombridge to Ranelagh, effectively servicing distances that would be considered walkable by many. It would drive discussion on extending green line to other parts of north and south city I think. Maybe Green line to UCD would be good.

D14Rugby

AngryLips wrote: »

I would be surprised to see stops like Cowper continuing to exist in a metro-ised green line. Also, converting most of Green line to Metro would leave what's left in a bit of a limbo IMO: a city centre section that stretches from Broombridge to Ranelagh, effectively servicing distances that would be considered walkable by many. It would drive discussion on extending green line to other parts of north and south city I think. Maybe Green line to UCD would be good.

Was thinking this the other day. In order to avoid the cross city becoming a bit of a waste if you extend the metro down whats currently the green line you'd have to extend the remaining bit of the line either further south or north with south west being the obvious choice.
UCD is pretty much on the green line already its a 10 min walk to the campus from the milltown or windy arbour stop

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

Tenders for Consultancy Services for New Metro North were submitted last Friday

Is this in relation to this tender? https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

AngryLips

D14Rugby wrote: »

Was thinking this the other day. In order to avoid the cross city becoming a bit of a waste if you extend the metro down whats currently the green line you'd have to extend the remaining bit of the line either further south or north with south west being the obvious choice.
UCD is pretty much on the green line already its a 10 min walk to the campus from the milltown or windy arbour stop

I wonder if there's a Ranelagh-Rathmines-Harold's Cross alignment they could use somewhere.

marno21

The current city centre setup as of this morning shows how important it is that Metro North is progressed immediately. Thankfully, we have a Taoiseach in place that seems interested in progressing it than talking down about how costly infrastructure is unless it involves bypassing several one horse towns on the road between Longford and Westport.

Luas expansions are all well and good but Luas BXD shows us that they can only go so far and the massive capacity constraints aren't going to go away. Time to think beyond watered down Luas schemes and onto projects like this. We badly need a cross party agreed follow up to Transport 21 because at present if FF come back in and decide not to proceed with Leo's brainchild Metro North we are back to square one. The world isn't going to wait around for Ireland to quit this nonsense.

Idbatterim

Luas expansions are all well and good but Luas BXD shows us that they can only go so far and the massive capacity constraints aren't going to go away. Time to think beyond watered down Luas schemes and onto projects like this. We badly need a cross party agreed follow up to Transport 21 because at present if FF come back in and decide not to proceed with Leo's brainchild Metro North we are back to square one. The world isn't going to wait around for Ireland to quit this nonsense.

agree with a lot of this! If FF get back in, maybe they would go with their surperior scheme that has planning! why doesnt leo put our money where his mouth is, if he is so interested in public transport. Actions speak louder than words! the case for simply going with metro north is stronger than ever, unless they are going to bring forward the start date for a new scheme massively!

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

The current city centre setup as of this morning shows how important it is that Metro North is progressed immediately. Thankfully, we have a Taoiseach in place that seems interested in progressing it than talking down about how costly infrastructure is unless it involves bypassing several one horse towns on the road between Longford and Westport.

Luas expansions are all well and good but Luas BXD shows us that they can only go so far and the massive capacity constraints aren't going to go away. Time to think beyond watered down Luas schemes and onto projects like this. We badly need a cross party agreed follow up to Transport 21 because at present if FF come back in and decide not to proceed with Leo's brainchild Metro North we are back to square one. The world isn't going to wait around for Ireland to quit this nonsense.

You are talking some sense but I feel I need to remind you that the bolded part could apply to Bertie Ahern too. He was a true blue Dub that sold his principles to stay in power. What makes you think Leo is any different? Genuine question Marno.

MJohnston

Leo and Bertie don't need to be any different, but the political environment they're operating in is very different - Leo has to satisfy a tech industry that's bursting at the seams for office and residential space, he has to combat a housing and homelessness crisis, he will need to capitalise on Brexit by maximising Dublin's future potential, and he seems like he wants to appeal more to younger voters than the older generation.

These are all reasons I see it as much more likely he'd be politically inclined to push Metro North through.

marno21

Grandeeod wrote: »

You are talking some sense but I feel I need to remind you that the bolded part could apply to Bertie Ahern too. He was a true blue Dub that sold his principles to stay in power. What makes you think Leo is any different? Genuine question Marno.

I don't think we need a true blue Dub. Enda Kenny's Government was such a disaster for infrastructure that it's easy to forget that we are actually capable of building stuff.

Speaking just from an infrastructural point of view, Bertie's Government contributed a massive amount of infrastructure to the State.

Enda built very little.

In between is what we need, we are never going to reach the days of spending 4bn a year on infrastructure, but we need to spend more than now.

These are different times, as the post that follows mine says. Leo is quite young, and will still be in politics when Metro North is scheduled to open in 2027. Bertie retired after being Taoiseach, Brian Cowen did, Enda Kenny will shortly. That doesn't apply to Leo. It may not totally bridge the gap in terms of forward thinking but it will help. Leo has given more airtime to infrastructure in the last 4 months than Enda did during his reign. I am willing to give him a chance.

CreativeSen

marno21 wrote: »

Speaking just from an infrastructural point of view, Bertie's Government contributed a massive amount of infrastructure to the State.

Enda built very little.

Does the global financial meltdown of 2008 not spark any glimmer of a memory at all? Would have been nice to have had some of that reserve put aside for when our economy did crash instead of an unnecessary M2 and an underutilized M3, an incomplete M18 and still no M20...but here we are so we may as well play with the cards we have been dealt.

My feeling is that Metro North will go ahead regardless of FF/FG swapping places. Coalition king makers will have an inordinate amount of say in this decision. I dont see the Greens or Labour blocking it. What about SF?

It would be nice to see construction starting before 2021 but i think i read somewhere that the timeline is a result of boring equipment availability that needs to be leased but is booked until then?

If construction doesnt start until 2021 is it realistic that they will have it ready by 2027....they are the experts and that is their timeline but it seems rather fast considering Luas BXD took how many years?

plodder

My recollection would be that most Taoisaigh up to LV, prioritised infrastructure in their own constituencies. I don't see much evidence of that from Leo which is to his credit. He could have pushed for the children's hospital to go to Blanch, but didn't, for example. Maybe that will help Metro North, if it's not seen as a vanity project tied to a particular minister.

MJohnston

CreativeSen wrote: »

Does the global financial meltdown of 2008 not spark any glimmer of a memory at all? Would have been nice to have had some of that reserve put aside for when our economy did crash instead of an unnecessary M2 and an underutilized M3, an incomplete M18 and still no M20...but here we are so we may as well play with the cards we have been dealt.

My feeling is that Metro North will go ahead regardless of FF/FG swapping places. Coalition king makers will have an inordinate amount of say in this decision. I dont see the Greens or Labour blocking it. What about SF?

It would be nice to see construction starting before 2021 but i think i read somewhere that the timeline is a result of boring equipment availability that needs to be leased but is booked until then?

If construction doesnt start until 2021 is it realistic that they will have it ready by 2027....they are the experts and that is their timeline but it seems rather fast considering Luas BXD took how many years?

Actual construction of BXD took 2 years.

CatInABox

MJohnston wrote: »

Actual construction of BXD took 2 years.

Yeah, Dublin Metro won't have the same lengthy preparatory works, no victorian basements to fill in when you're just going under them.

MJohnston

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, Dublin Metro won't have the same lengthy preparatory works, no victorian basements to fill in when you're just going under them.

I'd guess the station excavation will be the lengthier part of Metro North, but I don't know how fast the tunneling will be

marno21

CreativeSen wrote: »

Does the global financial meltdown of 2008 not spark any glimmer of a memory at all? Would have been nice to have had some of that reserve put aside for when our economy did crash instead of an unnecessary M2 and an underutilized M3, an incomplete M18 and still no M20...but here we are so we may as well play with the cards we have been dealt.

My feeling is that Metro North will go ahead regardless of FF/FG swapping places. Coalition king makers will have an inordinate amount of say in this decision. I dont see the Greens or Labour blocking it. What about SF?

It would be nice to see construction starting before 2021 but i think i read somewhere that the timeline is a result of boring equipment availability that needs to be leased but is booked until then?

If construction doesnt start until 2021 is it realistic that they will have it ready by 2027....they are the experts and that is their timeline but it seems rather fast considering Luas BXD took how many years?

I do remember the financial crisis, but:

1. In June we were told there was no money for major infrastructure projects. Now there's a number of projects back in planning since Varadkar came in. The money wasn't found down the back of the sofa. The M20, N2, several projects in Donegal amongst others are now reactivated. These could easily have been reactivated by the Kenny government and would be closer to construction.

2. At the end of Kenny's reign, there were around 14 national roads projects in planning, as part of the Capital Plan. Kenny repeatedly shot down the M20, N24 etc as they weren't in the Capital Plan. Kenny's N5 upgrade through Roscommon, not on the Capital Plan, was fully funded while he was in power.

My point is that there was no will in the previous Government to do anything regarding infrastructure due to simple short termism. The new Taoiseach appears to have a different outlook. Let's see where it goes; we haven't had any broken promises yet..

annfield1978

marno21 wrote: »

Is this in relation to this tender? https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=117081&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

Yes

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

Yes

Thanks.

jd

Bambi wrote: »

Looks like the NTA are trying to put the kibosh on a Lidl being built in Ballymun, presumably to try keep the whole site greenfield for Metro North. Despite being made aware at every stage of the process what was being planned

Sorry lads you have to stick or twist, can't just sit there trying to hold all the cards forever.

The NTA have dropped their objection to the LIDL and student accommodation.

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/12/13/nta-drops-objection-to-lidl-and-student-accommodation-in-ballymun/

Surely the release of the new preferred route is imminent.

Idbatterim

Christ. Wouldn't be surprised to see an at grade junction with the m50 if it saved money!

BonnieSituation

Idbatterim wrote: »

Christ. Wouldn't be surprised to see an at grade junction with the m50 if it saved money!

We'd never do that sort of thing now would we?