Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Stephen Strange

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads a big hypothetical here, but if you could turn back the clock, would it have made sense for the government to purchase the appollo and college house and department of health block to have the next metro stop after SSG there? then connect it to OCS by underground walkway tunnels with travelators.

connected to tara street by again underground pedestrian tunnel, could that have saved a fortune on MN and DU?

sell off the site when construction is complete or develop it themselves...

As far as I am aware, the Government do own the Dept of Health (Hawkins House) site. I think it is the OPW that are developing it in a joint project with the owners of Apollo House. It wouldn't have been a bad idea to put a stop there!

Idbatterim

this is the thing though, I actually dont even know where to start as I am writing this! the bloody lying snakes will need justification for binning the better scheme with planning, I dont see how they cant go with the 90m platforms again and agreed with surface running in ballymun.

Tying it into the green line from the get go, might give them the cover they need, to say it is different enough to the original scheme and gives this big benefit from the get go..

Because all they care about here is optics!

Ill tell you what, with the lottery like odds of the original scheme now going ahead! IF IF they make it driverless, it would be one massive improvement on the original scheme!!!

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is the thing though, I actually dont even know where to start as I am writing this! the bloody lying snakes will need justification for binning the better scheme with planning, I dont see how they cant go with the 90m platforms again and agreed with surface running in ballymun.

Tying it into the green line from the get go, might give them the cover they need, to say it is different enough to the original scheme and gives this big benefit from the get go..

Because all they care about here is optics!

Ill tell you what, with the lottery like odds of the original scheme now going ahead! IF IF they make it driverless, it would be one massive improvement on the original scheme!!!

I don't buy all the talk that Original Metro North should have gone ahead or was superior.

For example, O'Connell Bridge station was a hugely expensive concept and offered poor interchange for the price. Tiger era excess imo. You could build two stations at the Spire and Tara for that money, which is a far better transport solution.

Then it duplicated the green line as a result of brainless, confused planning. And now with Cross City in place, I can't see them building directly underneath a live city centre tram line right along its length, not when it can be avoided.

It terminated in the city centre, again bad planning. This new design may include Metro South too, which is far more desirable.

The spread of stations wasn't great. O'Connell Bridge to SSG was too large a gap imo. Hopefully that'll be improved.

Original MN was not flawless. If we had actually built it 5 years ago, great, but we didn't so there's a window to look again before we go ahead.

(they better actually build it this time though.....)

Idbatterim

D.L.R. wrote: »

I don't buy all the talk that the original Metro North should have gone ahead or was superior.

For example, O'Connell Bridge station was a hugely expensive concept and offered poor interchange for the price. Tiger era excess imo. You could build two stations at the Spire and Tara for that money, which is a far better transport solution.

Then the line duplicated the green tram line as a result of brainless planning. And now with Cross City in place, I can't see how they build directly underneath a live tram line through the busiest part of town when its not necessary.

It terminated in the city centre, again bad planning. This new design may include Metro South too, which is far more desirable.

Original MN was not flawless. If we had actually built it 5 years ago, great, but we didn't so there's a window to look again before we go ahead.

(they better actually build it this time though.....)

a few things, if the new metro new, wasnt going to be delayed years and we erode what we are getting on inflation, I might agree with you. Say a one year delay, 18 months max. We know the insane difficulty and length of time to get a project through planning here. also the metro north route will have to pretty much take nearly the exact same route as the pathetic cross city line. Maybe one good thing to come out of it, is that the cross city line could be axed when it opens, or devise a way that trams do not have to run over OCB...

Why would you build a station at the spire and Tara street? if they are so hell bent on cost, can they not just link OCS with a pedestrian tunnel with travelators? The walks in cities on the continent in stations can be sizeable! it looks to me, to be 400m as the crow flies from Tara Street to Spire...

(they better actually build it this time though.....)

agreed, the thing is, I dont see how they can get away without doing it this time, barring an economic collapse, this is a FG scheme, after all the f**cking around, what would they say if recession hits the next time and their current prudent "proposal" has to be shelved, when things pick back up, that their own budget project was "celtic tiger excess"? this scheme will be it in my opinion. But it is a disgrace the way it has played out...

MJohnston

@mods could we maybe keep this thread for specific project updates and questions about the ongoing project, with a separate thread for chat about the old MN project and general complaints about infrastructure? Some of the arguments are a bit repetitive.

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

@mods could we maybe keep this thread for specific project updates and questions about the ongoing project, with a separate thread for chat about the old MN project and general complaints about infrastructure? Some of the arguments are a bit repetitive.

I'll look into it over the weekend.

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

a few things, if the new metro new, wasnt going to be delayed years and we erode what we are getting on inflation, I might agree with you. Say a one year delay, 18 months max. We know the insane difficulty and length of time to get a project through planning here. also the metro north route will have to pretty much take nearly the exact same route as the pathetic cross city line. Maybe one good thing to come out of it, is that the cross city line could be axed when it opens, or devise a way that trams do not have to run over OCB...

Why would you build a station at the spire and Tara street? if they are so hell bent on cost, can they not just link OCS with a pedestrian tunnel with travelators? The walks in cities on the continent in stations can be sizeable! it looks to me, to be 400m as the crow flies from Tara Street to Spire...

agreed, the thing is, I dont see how they can get away without doing it this time, barring an economic collapse, this is a FG scheme, after all the f**cking around, what would they say if recession hits the next time and their current prudent "proposal" has to be shelved, when things pick back up, that their own budget project was "celtic tiger excess"? this scheme will be it in my opinion. But it is a disgrace the way it has played out...

Agree 100% about the economic cost of delaying, and the way this has played out.

I'd like to see Spire and Tara because one interchanges with both tram lines and the other creates a major city centre rail interchange. This concept wouldn't be any more expensive than the OCB station plan. You're effectively just nudging the two OCB boxes to more useful locations.

As to pedestrian underground travelators, they wouldn't be my first choice. Not very pleasant to use, avoid if possible.

MJohnston

If I remember right Spire and Tara are mutually exclusive station locations, purely down to the maximum limits of the curve of the tracks and route. You can do SSG-Tara-Mater, or SSG-Spire-Mater but not SSG-Tara-Spire-Mater.

D.L.R.

MJohnston wrote: »

If I remember right Spire and Tara are mutually exclusive station locations, purely down to the maximum limits of the curve of the tracks and route. You can do SSG-Tara-Mater, or SSG-Spire-Mater but not SSG-Tara-Spire-Mater.

I'd be interested where you heard that. Hadn't heard it spoken of.

You'd have to hit Tara at the right angle but it should be possible.

marno21

MOD:

Before I start, if you have an issue with this post please report it so the mods can discuss it. Please include a reason when reporting it. Do not discuss on thread, thanks.

Can we call a halt to the discussions regarding Metro North (the project that currently has active planning permission) and how great it would be to build it UNLESS there is any kind of announcement that it will be resurrected. We've been told repeatedly that the existing Metro North project will not be going ahead, unless that changes there is no point in talking in circles about it.

By 2018 end, New Metro North will be almost at the same stage as the existing Metro North project. For that reason, we will continue discussion on the new scheme.

There isn't a total ban on discussion on the existing Metro North project, feel free to compare both schemes when we get a firm idea of routing, frequency, etc. But discussions on whether it should be revived/how great it is/why it should be revived etc are finished. We've had those discussions and there is nothing new to add.

MJohnston

D.L.R. wrote: »

I'd be interested where you heard that. Hadn't heard it spoken of.

You'd have to hit Tara at the right angle but it should be possible.

I'm not 100% to be honest! I do think the curve would require a heavy enough speed limit that might be undesirable. An O'Connell Street Upper station might be more possible in combination with Tara.

annfield1978

Project team for NMN mobilised following appointment and work commenced

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

Project team for NMN mobilised following appointment and work commenced

Thanks for this. Can you reveal what work/how they have been "mobilised"?

D.L.R.

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not 100% to be honest! I do think the curve would require a heavy enough speed limit that might be undesirable. An O'Connell Street Upper station might be more possible in combination with Tara.

If your Tara platforms face N/NE then maybe you have problems with a curve, but otherwise no big deal. Re speed you wouldn't have issues as the trains couldn't pick up much speed between two close stations anyway.

Problem with an O'C Upper station is you lose red line interchange and its not as useful for the very busy Henry St/OCB/Temple Bar areas.

Idbatterim

By 2018 end, New Metro North will be almost at the same stage as the existing Metro North project. For that reason, we will continue discussion on the new scheme.

so new metro north will be proposed, gone through public consultation, the council, abp and possibly the courts by the end of 2018?

annfield1978

NMN to be with An Bord Pleanala in 18 months

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

NMN to be with An Bord Pleanala in 18 months

Many thanks.

If it's to be with ABP in mid 2019, then advance works and procurement of contractor in 2020 with 2021 start as programmed.

Delightful

marno21

The latest on Metro North from Shane Ross:

In relation to Metro North, funding of over €700 million has been allocated under the Government’s present Capital Plan 2016-2021 for planning, design and construction of new Metro North with construction work commencing in 2021 and passenger services starting in 2027. The estimated cost of completing the new Metro North project is €2.4 billion. The NTA, in collaboration with Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII), is undertaking an option analysis and selection study of possible metro alignments and station locations. Arising from this work a final route and station location will be established. It is my understanding that the NTA and TII expect that this process will be completed shortly, after which a public consultation process will be undertaken on the Emerging Preferred Route (EPR). It is also expected that Preliminary Design will commence early this year.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Many thanks.

If it's to be with ABP in mid 2019, then advance works and procurement of contractor in 2020 with 2021 start as programmed.

Delightful

Cynical of me perhaps but by 2021 we could have a change of government and it could go right back to the drawing board.

CatInABox

Deleted User wrote: »

Cynical of me perhaps but by 2021 we could have a change of government and it could go right back to the drawing board.

Honestly, I don't think so. It went back to the drawing board not because of a change of government, but because of the economic conditions at the time. So long as things continue as they are, then I can see it being built, regardless of government.

Idbatterim

Deleted User wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

Many thanks.

If it's to be with ABP in mid 2019, then advance works and procurement of contractor in 2020 with 2021 start as programmed.

Delightful

Cynical of me perhaps but by 2021 we could have a change of government and it could go right back to the drawing board.

I doubt it. I don't think there can't be any more f**king around with it. If ff got in tomorrow, they might say go with their original scheme. By 2021 this new proposal will likely have planning ...

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I doubt it. I don't think there can't be any more f**king around with it. If ff got in tomorrow, they might say go with their original scheme. By 2021 this new proposal will likely have planning ...

The original is still official FF policy I think.

But don't think that's realistic now personally.

MJohnston

The longer the New Metro North plan continues to progress, the less and less likely it is that even FF would want to return to the original project. If we get to 2021 with the same government, I'd say NMN will be too far underway for anyone in politics to want to delay it.

radharc

Paschal Donohoe in today's Irish Times:

Donohoe plans to outline a capital infrastructure programme for the next 10 years in the coming weeks, that will include a number of major transport projects, including Metro North, which is due for completion in 2027.

On MN:
" It needs to be conceived as more than a city centre to airport axis" he says, adding that it should include Swords and other parts of north co. Dublin. "One of the major benefits of using such an approach is the ability it has to allow us to see land north of the airport in a different way. There's really significant development potential from a homes point of view and an office point of view, if we can link up that part of the city better."

On Dart Underground:
"The last Dart Underground project was too expensive and over engineered. I want to see something that is more affordable with the same benefit delivered in a different way. I'm confident that is can be delivered."

prunudo

radharc wrote: »

Paschal Donohoe in today's Irish Times:

Donohoe plans to outline a capital infrastructure programme for the next 10 years in the coming weeks, that will include a number of major transport projects, including Metro North, which is due for completion in 2027.

On MN:
" It needs to be conceived as more than a city centre to airport axis" he says, adding that it should include Swords and other parts of north co. Dublin. "One of the major benefits of using such an approach is the ability it has to allow us to see land north of the airport in a different way. There's really significant development potential from a homes point of view and an office point of view, if we can link up that part of the city better."

On Dart Underground:
"The last Dart Underground project was too expensive and OVER ENGINEERED. I want to see something that is more affordable with the same benefit delivered in a different way. I'm confident that is can be delivered."

I'd rather for once that they did over engineer infrastructure projects than continuously half building things only to re-design them 10 years after they've been opened because there is no room for expansion.

bk

D.L.R. wrote: »

The original is still official FF policy I think.

But don't think that's realistic now personally.

I'm sure that is simply political point scoring. I'm certain if they bothered to ask anyone in the NTA or Dept of Transport they would be told that the original plan can't go ahead now as planned and either way it would have to change.

jvan wrote: »

I'd rather for once that they did over engineer infrastructure projects than continuously half building things only to re-design them 10 years after they've been opened because there is no room for expansion.

Well their is over-engineered and then their is over-engineered.

For instance for Metro North I certainly hope that we will still end up getting 90 meter station boxes, even if they aren't used from day one. However elements of the original Metro North plan were definitely WAY over-engineered, for no obvious benefit. For instance the station under O'Connell Bridge was absolutely massive and the fact it was under the river would have made it's construction very complicated and expensive.

So I'd say there is a balance to be struck.

Kermit.de.frog

radharc wrote: »

On Dart Underground:
"The last Dart Underground project was too expensive and over engineered.."

"So here is what we are going to do, we are going to under engineer it instead..."

The attitude to infrastructure in this country is bloody depressing.

Everything has to be second rate.

MayoSalmon

radharc wrote:

On Dart Underground: "The last Dart Underground project was too expensive and over engineered. I want to see something that is more affordable with the same benefit delivered in a different way. I'm confident that is can be delivered."

Standard Irish Political viewpoint...very depressing to hear him say that but not in the least surprised.

Connecting two LUAS lines was probably viewed as over engineering back in the late 90s no doubt.

Numpties the lot of them

D.L.R.

DU was a crossrail scale project. 200m platforms, 5 massive underground stations.

We never properly considered a light rail metro version. Smaller (faster) trains, smaller stations, smaller tunnels.

CarlosHarpic

"The last Dart Underground project was too expensive and over engineered.."

In a way, I have to agree with this.

We need to look at what is the main benefit of the DU? It was the 'Intercorrector' aspect, allowing trains to move from Hueston to the Northern Line.

Great. So why include so many intermediate stations in between Huston and the Northern Line? This is the over-engineered part.

I would argue that one intermediate station - connecting with the Metro - is enough.

I agree the plan was over engineered. Not because of the tunnel, but because there were too many stations. They were massive stations too.

DARTUnderground needs underground stations below Hueston, and at where the line will interconnect with the Metro.

It they deliver this, then it would be fine.