Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Dr_Bill

D.L.R. wrote: »

DU was a crossrail scale project. 200m platforms, 5 massive underground stations.

We never properly considered a light rail metro version. Smaller (faster) trains, smaller stations, smaller tunnels.

There is another way to look at it thou, while the demand may not be currently present, it makes sense to futureproof that initial investment.

Imagine if Ireland took the initiative to install high-speed 300km Ice Train style infrastructure. What would that do for the country? How would it change the whole dynamic?

Imagine living in Cork/Limerick/Galway/Sligo and being able to work in Dublin and be home within an hour? Imagine if it was a regular, reliable service?

Darn sure there would be less talk about rent pressure zones, M50 jam ups etc and more talk about how great it is able to watch the sun go down along the Wild Atlantic Way.

That's how you spread the economic recovery to the rest of the country, you give the people a choice.

Kermit.de.frog

M50 would be grand with 2 lanes and roundabouts.

The mentality has not changed.

What is sad is that so many leave Dublin for a life abroad because they know there is no initiative in the city or ambition.

People think it is just economics, it isn't. I guess most aspire to live in a city that is more than an Irish Sheffield.

Stupidity has the city in a very bad place. There is nothing going for Dublin, let's be honest. I think anyone with an ounce of sense would get out.

Nothing exciting here. Has to be Georgian and cater to drunks. That's the level.

What we are left with is a dull, boring, depressing small time city. Go figure.

loyatemu

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

In a way, I have to agree with this.

We need to look at what is the main benefit of the DU? It was the 'Intercorrector' aspect, allowing trains to move from Hueston to the Northern Line.

Great. So why include so many intermediate stations in between Huston and the Northern Line? This is the over-engineered part.

I would argue that one intermediate station - connecting with the Metro - is enough.

I agree the plan was over engineered. Not because of the tunnel, but because there were too many stations. They were massive stations too.

DARTUnderground needs underground stations below Hueston, and at where the line will interconnect with the Metro.

It they deliver this, then it would be fine.

this is nonsense - the stations proposed were at Spencer Dock (where there's already a station, and its a major employment centre), Pearse (a no-brainer), SSG (connection with Metro), Christchurch and Heuston.

The only really optional station there is Christchurch, but it make sense to put a station in a heavily-populated area of the inner city.

plodder

I don't think DU was over engineered. I think Irish Rail have not done a great job in selling the project, and dubbing it (originally) merely an "interconnector" was the kiss of death. It has a lot of similarities with the so-called 'stammstrecke' ie. core tunnel, in German cities like Munich. It might surprise a lot of people in Munich to know that core of the network below supporting several s-bahn lines is a tunnel just like DU. To support that level of traffic requires big stations, and to interconnect with multiple metro (u-bahn) lines, you need more than one or two stations, to say nothing of those stations being destinations in themselves.

The Munich stammstrecke was engineered to a higher standard than DU (eg platforms on both sides of the trains in the big stations), and has stood the test of time. Planned for 250k passengers per day, it now carries over 800k and they are planning a second tunnel. I'd call that planning ahead rather than over engineering. It'd take several decades to get anything like the map below for Dublin, but then again it has taken 4 decades for Munich to get there.

bk

D.L.R. wrote: »

DU was a crossrail scale project. 200m platforms, 5 massive underground stations.

We never properly considered a light rail metro version. Smaller (faster) trains, smaller stations, smaller tunnels.

Yes, I did mention this idea a few months ago and got eaten alive

A Metro line starting deep in the newly developing Port area, along a similar alignment as DU and then out towards Lucan maybe.

Probably cost a billion less, serve as many people and serve areas not currently served by train.

Yes it would mean some people would need to change trains to complete their journey. Much as they do today, but to bus/luas.

LeinsterDub

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Imagine if Ireland took the initiative to install high-speed 300km Ice Train style infrastructure. What would that do for the country?

Apart from bankrupting it I assume you mean?

FreudianSlippers

There remains zero reason this couldn't start this year.

wakka12

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

M50 would be grand with 2 lanes and roundabouts.

The mentality has not changed.

What is sad is that so many leave Dublin for a life abroad because they know there is no initiative in the city or ambition.

People think it is just economics, it isn't. I guess most aspire to live in a city that is more than an Irish Sheffield.

Stupidity has the city in a very bad place. There is nothing going for Dublin, let's be honest. I think anyone with an ounce of sense would get out.

Nothing exciting here. Has to be Georgian and cater to drunks. That's the level.

What we are left with is a dull, boring, depressing small time city. Go figure.

Well maybe you're expecting too much from a city of its size? Dublins far from perfect but imo it has plenty of good things going for it. Theres a lot of worse places to live than dublin

Kermit.de.frog

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There remains zero reason this couldn't start this year.

Narrow and small mindedness unfortunately. Penny pinching.

It's an inferiority complex.

Kermit.de.frog

wakka12 wrote: »

Well maybe you're expecting too much from a city of its size? Dublins far from perfect but imo it has plenty of good things going for it. Theres a lot of worse places to live than dublin

Lot's of cities of similar populations to Dublin have FAR superior infrastructure.

I think it is a post colonial inferiority complex.

How else do you explain this mindless and ruiness desire to protect "Georgian Dublin" - the same Georgian Dublin that is derelict and falling to the ground!?

Dublin is not exciting because it does not think big enough.

*woman on the news* - DON'T PUT THAT ON O'CONNELL ST - "This is not Dubai"

wakka12

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Lot's of cities of similar populations to Dublin have FAR superior infrastructure.

I think it is a post colonial inferiority complex.

How else do you explain this mindless and ruiness desire to protect "Georgian Dublin" - the same Georgian Dublin that is derelict and falling to the ground!?

Dublin is not exciting because it does not think big enough.

*woman on the news* - DON'T PUT THAT ON O'CONNELL ST - "This is not Dubai"

Whats wrong with protecting georgian dublin? Are you seriously advocating for demolition of it? If you are just criticising the ban on high-rises in historical areas, saying that that is ruinness then I agree to an extent though
I don't think ugly modern redbrick infill the council seem to love is any more sensitive to historical fabric than an interesting contemporary cutting edge tall building , but at least the latter has merit in of itself and the city is developing then

Dr_Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Apart from bankrupting it I assume you mean?

Unfortunately we don't need infrastructure spending to achieve that, we have a government who are very capable of achieving that all on their own.

LeinsterDub

Dr_Bill wrote: »

Unfortunately we don't need infrastructure spending to achieve that, we have a government who are very capable of achieving that all on their own.

What's the relevance of this to your pipe dream proposal?

Dr_Bill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What's the relevance of this to your pipe dream proposal?

The government can realistically expect to tackle these issues by running more buses and trains, nor is forcing the travelling public into their cars the solution ask any commuter if they enjoy sitting in their car every morning for an hour or more on the M11, M7, M3, M4 & M1!!

A hyperloop would be a pipe dream, high speed actually represents a practical solution.

I'd be interested to read your proposal rather than call my suggestion a "pipe dream"

bk

I have to say, having travelled all over the world, Dublin is actually a really nice city, with an awful lot going for it.

Big enough that there is plenty of night life, culture and things to do, big concerts, etc. but not so big that it is super overcrowded like London, etc. Also great that you can drive 30 minutes out of the city and end up hiking in the beauty of Wicklow.

Also way friendlier then most big cities and relatively low crime levels.

Also great jobs here, with lots of big IT and financial companies and thus great opportunities to have a good job and stay in Ireland.

Of course not everything is perfect here, we fall behind some of the best cities in Europe, in particular with regards to transport and housing. However it should be kept in mind that those cities are probably the best cities in the world, so we are comparing ourselves to a very high bar. Also needs to be kept in mind that we have only had independence for a relatively short period of time and have had money for even shorter period of time.

We still have a lot to do, but has to be remembered that we also have come from having almost nothing to being a relatively wealthy Europe city in just 30 years, that has been simply amazing.

But that also comes with growing pain and we still have a lot to fix, but we shouldn't forget how much has been achieved.

bk

Dr_Bill wrote: »

The government can realistically expect to tackle these issues by running more buses and trains, nor is forcing the travelling public into their cars the solution ask any commuter if they enjoy sitting in their car every morning for an hour or more on the M11, M7, M3, M4 & M1!!

A hyperloop would be a pipe dream, high speed actually represents a practical solution.

I'd be interested to read your proposal rather than call my suggestion a "pipe dream"

I'm afraid your proposal is totally a pipe dream. Ireland simply doesn't have big enough cities or far enough distances to make high speed rail economically feasible.

A high speed rail would cost in the region of 12 billion Euro. And no, it wouldn't mean people would be able to commute from Cork, etc. Just go look at the price of High speed rail tickets around Europe, over €100 would be normal per trip cost, so no, no one would be commuting daily by High Speed Rail and thus it would do little or nothing to help with the housing crisis.

If you want to make the journey time between the cities faster, simply subsidise an air route between them, along with some modifications to the airports. Same journey time for a fraction of the cost.

No, better to spend less then half of that money on building Metro North and DART Underground and then building high density apartments near the stations. That is what will actually help our housing crisis.

CarlosHarpic

plodder wrote: »

I don't think DU was over engineered. I think Irish Rail have not done a great job in selling the project, and dubbing it (originally) merely an "interconnector" was the kiss of death.

I agree with this completely. They were also not even properly explaining what it was to the public or media. They were perfectly happy with the common misconception that it was a tunnel connecting Huston to Connolly. I know many pro rail people who were against it based exclusively on the lack of information on what the tunnel was really for.

For a long time too I thought it was just a tunnel. It was not untill proper information was literally prised out of IE senior enginners did anyone wake up to what they were really up to. By then, their cryptic Interconnector had basically killed itself off.

CarlosHarpic

D.L.R. wrote: »

DU was a crossrail scale project. 200m platforms, 5 massive underground stations.

We never properly considered a light rail metro version. Smaller (faster) trains, smaller stations, smaller tunnels.

an orbital central metro just connecting everything in the city centre would be good

wakka12

Yeh calling it an interconnector really makes little of its importance . And I think they should not attach the dart name to it either, as people immediately associate it as merely a (very expensive ) extension of the current coastal dart line

It should have its own metro name like metro north

LeinsterDub

Dr_Bill wrote: »

I'd be interested to read your proposal rather than call my suggestion a "pipe dream"

See BK's post . He's basically nailed it.

murphaph

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

In a way, I have to agree with this.

We need to look at what is the main benefit of the DU? It was the 'Intercorrector' aspect, allowing trains to move from Hueston to the Northern Line.

Great. So why include so many intermediate stations in between Huston and the Northern Line? This is the over-engineered part.

I would argue that one intermediate station - connecting with the Metro - is enough.

I agree the plan was over engineered. Not because of the tunnel, but because there were too many stations. They were massive stations too.

DARTUnderground needs underground stations below Hueston, and at where the line will interconnect with the Metro.

It they deliver this, then it would be fine.

Then mind boggles when I read this. Omitting a bunch of stations where most people want to go!

murphaph

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh calling it an interconnector really makes little of its importance . And I think they should not attach the dart name to it either, as people immediately associate it as merely a (very expensive ) extension of the current coastal dart line

It should have its own metro name like metro north

Irish Rail don't do much right but they recognised a long time ago that the project needed a better name and came up with Dart Underground, which is exactly what it would be.

MJohnston

Lads...isn't there a DART Underground thread?

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Yes, I did mention this idea a few months ago and got eaten alive

A Metro line starting deep in the newly developing Port area, along a similar alignment as DU and then out towards Lucan maybe.

Probably cost a billion less, serve as many people and serve areas not currently served by train.

Yes it would mean some people would need to change trains to complete their journey. Much as they do today, but to bus/luas.

The thing you'd have trains coming in off the Northern Line with the Interconnector those trains could be held up due to getting stuck behind other trains unless four tracking is complete by then you could looking at potential delays. Also frequency would be only be 1 train every ten minutes as that is all the line North of the tunnel can handle without four tracking and the current DART stations North of Connolly require anyway. But one train every ten minutes in the tunnel is an under utilisation of such an expensive project.

Building it as a Metro would make far more sense. I wouldn't go for low capacity light rail similar to the Luas but rather a Metro perhaps even a driverless one with high platforms and metro characteristics.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I have to say, having travelled all over the world, Dublin is actually a really nice city, with an awful lot going for it.

Big enough that there is plenty of night life, culture and things to do, big concerts, etc. but not so big that it is super overcrowded like London, etc. Also great that you can drive 30 minutes out of the city and end up hiking in the beauty of Wicklow.

Also way friendlier then most big cities and relatively low crime levels.

Also great jobs here, with lots of big IT and financial companies and thus great opportunities to have a good job and stay in Ireland.

Of course not everything is perfect here, we fall behind some of the best cities in Europe, in particular with regards to transport and housing. However it should be kept in mind that those cities are probably the best cities in the world, so we are comparing ourselves to a very high bar. Also needs to be kept in mind that we have only had independence for a relatively short period of time and have had money for even shorter period of time.

We still have a lot to do, but has to be remembered that we also have come from having almost nothing to being a relatively wealthy Europe city in just 30 years, that has been simply amazing.

But that also comes with growing pain and we still have a lot to fix, but we shouldn't forget how much has been achieved.

I'd have disagree to an extent. I do recognise that Dublin is not a dump like some make it out to be but to say it's a really nice place would be stretch for me. I have travelled myself and there are worse cities but plenty more better ones.

I feel most on the continent are safer not necessarily because they are but they have a safer vibe to them especially at night when I feel that Dublin has a bad vibe at night and unless your going a pub/club there is nothing else to do at night. I guess it could be more of a weather thing.

I also think that Dublin has a city centre that's unpleasant for pedestrians with narrow footpaths in places and large amounts of buses and cars whizzing by. I would like to see more pedrianised space they really need to get this College Green Plaza built for once and all and then I would agree that Dublin is a really nice city.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

Then mind boggles when I read this. Omitting a bunch of stations where most people want to go!

murphaph wrote: »

Irish Rail don't do much right but they recognised a long time ago that the project needed a better name and came up with Dart Underground, which is exactly what it would be.

There's a new broom in town. We are old an old broom. This is the first internet version of it. There will be lots more to come. It will suit the powers that be.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I feel most on the continent are safer not necessarily because they are but they have a safer vibe to them especially at night when I feel that Dublin has a bad vibe at night and unless your going a pub/club there is nothing else to do at night. I guess it could be more of a weather thing.

At night in Dublin you just have some drunk people that are easily avoided and you be perfectly fine.

I've seen and been a victim of actual crime a lot more in other European cities then I've ever been in Dublin. As in bag snatching, pickpocketing, etc.

My OH use to walk home from work at 3am on her own around Parnell St almost every night, never a problem. Not many cities you can really say that for.

I agree that the onstreet drunkenness and junkies make it perhaps feel more dangerous then it actually is. Other cities take a zero tolerance of that sort of thing, police would round you up and lock you up for doing the same in Eastern Europe. So they might feel safer, but they actually can have more serious organised crime issues that aren't as obvious unless you live there.

BTW there is plenty to do in Dublin in the evenings other then pub/clubs. Though you are right not much else to do after 11 and yes weather plays a very big part in that.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also think that Dublin has a city centre that's unpleasant for pedestrians with narrow footpaths in places and large amounts of buses and cars whizzing by. I would like to see more pedrianised space they really need to get this College Green Plaza built for once and all and then I would agree that Dublin is a really nice city.

I agree, I suppose if your only experience of Dublin is visiting and seeing the core city center, then it would look pretty bad. But actually living here you see the nice leafy suburban towns that make for great places to live.

I agree with what you are saying above about the core city center, which is why I'm a big fan of improving it and making it a more liveable city center like you see in other European cities. Get rid of cars/taxis, reduce buses, more trams/metros, wider footpaths and way more pedestrianisation, more cycling, etc. I do think Dublin has great potential to be a great European city. Though lots to do.

wakka12

bk wrote: »

At night in Dublin you just have some drunk people that are easily avoided and you be perfectly fine.

I've seen and been a victim of actual crime a lot more in other European cities then I've ever been in Dublin. As in bag snatching, pickpocketing, etc.

My OH use to walk home from work at 3am on her own around Parnell St almost every night, never a problem. Not many cities you can really say that for.

I agree that the onstreet drunkenness and junkies make it perhaps feel more dangerous then it actually is. Other cities take a zero tolerance of that sort of thing, police would round you up and lock you up for doing the same in Eastern Europe. So they might feel safer, but they actually can have more serious organised crime issues that aren't as obvious unless you live there.

BTW there is plenty to do in Dublin in the evenings other then pub/clubs. Though you are right not much else to do after 11 and yes weather plays a very big part in that.



I agree, I suppose if your only experience of Dublin is visiting and seeing the core city center, then it would look pretty bad. But actually living here you see the nice leafy suburban towns that make for great places to live.

I agree with what you are saying above about the core city center, which is why I'm a big fan of improving it and making it a more liveable city center like you see in other European cities. Get rid of cars/taxis, reduce buses, more trams/metros, wider footpaths and way more pedestrianisation, more cycling, etc. I do think Dublin has great potential to be a great European city. Though lots to do.

College Green is like the last major piece of puzzle for pedestrianisation. Everywhere is nicer without cars but college green is a busy and important part o f the city that massively suffers from not being pedestrianised. For instance the quays and oconnell street would obviously be lovely if pedestrian but I think they're fine with cars on them too. College green will make the entire city feel a lot more pedestrianised as it will be a plaza that links up important pedestrian areas trinity, grafton quarter, temple bar(along with the new central bank redevelopment and hawkins appolo house plaza) and then other important areas too like oconnell street and the rest of dame street

marno21

Lads can we continue DART Underground chat in the DART Expansion thread.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

At night in Dublin you just have some drunk people that are easily avoided and you be perfectly fine.

I've seen and been a victim of actual crime a lot more in other European cities then I've ever been in Dublin. As in bag snatching, pickpocketing, etc.

My OH use to walk home from work at 3am on her own around Parnell St almost every night, never a problem. Not many cities you can really say that for.

I agree that the onstreet drunkenness and junkies make it perhaps feel more dangerous then it actually is. Other cities take a zero tolerance of that sort of thing, police would round you up and lock you up for doing the same in Eastern Europe. So they might feel safer, but they actually can have more serious organised crime issues that aren't as obvious unless you live there.

BTW there is plenty to do in Dublin in the evenings other then pub/clubs. Though you are right not much else to do after 11 and yes weather plays a very big part in that.

I agree, I suppose if your only experience of Dublin is visiting and seeing the core city center, then it would look pretty bad. But actually living here you see the nice leafy suburban towns that make for great places to live.

I agree with some of what you are saying but there does seem to a bad vibe at night. I have come home from the theatre/cinema/meal out a number of times recently at about 10 at night and it feels maybe not unsafe but certainly unpleasant at that time to the point where you just want to get your bus and leave ASAP.

The vibe I get in Dublin is one which I may actually be hurt as a result of an attack whereas in other cities it's a vibe of getting pickpocketed or bag snatched which I regard as more minor than actually getting hurt.

The only places open are bars and 24h shops in other cities you get clothes shops that open late until 10, 11 at night especially in the summer. All in all its not very family friendly at night other cities have family friendly at night. Public transport also plays a part as buses should be running later or even 24h.