Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It makes no sense to continue metro north all the way to Sandyford.
It should stop at charlemont. If southsiders want to go to the northside/airport, they get off the luas at charlemont and get on metro north. Otherwise they stay on the existing luas.
This would be by far the easiest and cheapest approach with minimal impact on the existing green luas line.

It makes no sense to stop Metro North at Charlemont.

It should continue to Sandyford.

See, I can make statements without any backup in them too!

donvito99

Shurimgreat wrote: »

It makes no sense to continue metro north all the way to Sandyford.
It should stop at charlemont. If southsiders want to go to the northside/airport, they get off the luas at charlemont and get on metro north. Otherwise they stay on the existing luas.
This would be by far the easiest and cheapest approach with minimal impact on the existing green luas line.

When you read this it's easier to understand how we came to have a low capacity, sub standard solution occupying a former heavy rail alignment.

AngryLips

ted1 wrote: »

That’s a half arsed approach. The LUAS is full from sandyford, there a couple of thousand homes being added in cherrywood. The line is ready to be upgraded to metro and it makes perfect sense to bring it to sandyford.

Well it’s full now, until the trams are extended. Also, a metro to Sandyford is going to be a fat lot of use to anyone living in Cherrywood

donvito99

AngryLips wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

That’s a half arsed approach. The LUAS is full from sandyford, there a couple of thousand homes being added in cherrywood. The line is ready to be upgraded to metro and it makes perfect sense to bring it to sandyford.

Well it’s full now, until the trams are extended. Also, a metro to Sandyford is going to be a fat lot of use to anyone living in Cherrywood

Are passengers from cherrywood going to be banned from walking across a platform and getting on a metro?

MJohnston

AngryLips wrote: »

Well it’s full now, until the trams are extended. Also, a metro to Sandyford is going to be a fat lot of use to anyone living in Cherrywood

Luas usage there will continue to grow even after the trams are extended and frequency increased. People living in Cherrywood will simply transfer from the Luas to the Metro at Sandyford, what's wrong with that?

CatInABox

AngryLips wrote: »

Well it’s full now, until the trams are extended. Also, a metro to Sandyford is going to be a fat lot of use to anyone living in Cherrywood

Yes, but all those extra people in Cherrywood will get onto the Luas, meaning that it'll be full by the time it gets to Sandyford. Anyone past that stop wouldn't be able to get on, therefore capacity improvements are needed, and solved by turning Sandyford onwards into a metro.

ted1

AngryLips wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

That’s a half arsed approach. The LUAS is full from sandyford, there a couple of thousand homes being added in cherrywood. The line is ready to be upgraded to metro and it makes perfect sense to bring it to sandyford.

Well it’s full now, until the trams are extended. Also, a metro to Sandyford is going to be a fat lot of use to anyone living in Cherrywood

They can change , the LUAS will also be starting in Bray

Shurimgreat

ted1 wrote: »

That’s a half arsed approach. The LUAS is full from sandyford, there a couple of thousand homes being added in cherrywood. The line is ready to be upgraded to metro and it makes perfect sense to bring it to sandyford.

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning. They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.
A person from cherrywood would have to travel on three different trams to get to the city centre and beyond under your suggestion.
With my proposal they would stay on the one tram all the way to the city centre, with only those heading on metro north having to get off once.

holidaysong

Is the proposed DCU at Collins Ave. Junction stop at the Ballymun end of Collins Ave or at the Whitehall junction?

Anita Blow

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning. They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.

Why would they have to get off at Charlemont if they want to continue into the city centre? Metro will stop at SSG, Tara & O'Connell St

ted1

Where the third one coming from ?

The frequency will be higher, as will the speed so after taking in the change there wouldn’t be any delay.

Ever metro system in the world has changes. In many cities it’s not uncommon to get three different metros to get to where you want to go.

Shurimgreat

CatInABox wrote: »

Yes, but all those extra people in Cherrywood will get onto the Luas, meaning that it'll be full by the time it gets to Sandyford. Anyone past that stop wouldn't be able to get on, therefore capacity improvements are needed, and solved by turning Sandyford onwards into a metro.

The hundreds if not thousands of people going from Bray, Cherrywood and all the stops up to Sandyford would need to travel on three different trams if they want to make it to the city centre. The mind boggles at the utter stupidity of this.

fionnsci

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning. They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.
A person from cherrywood would have to travel on three different trams to get to the city centre and beyond under your suggestion.
With my proposal they would stay on the one tram all the way to the city centre, with only those heading on metro north having to get off once.

I don't think you've thought this through. We're talking about a change at Sandyford, in order to get onto a longer, wider, more frequent service (so I don't see where the mayhem is coming from) that'll serve more of the city centre and beyond.

You want the Luas to go all the way into town despite the fact that they're lower capacity and will prevent a higher capacity metro from operating on the line.

SteM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The hundreds if not thousands of people going from Bray, Cherrywood and all the stops up to Sandyford would need to travel on three different trams if they want to make it to the city centre. The mind boggles at the utter stupidity of this.

Why three different trams to get to the city centre? The metro will stop at Tara won't it? Why wouldn't they stay on the metro and get off there?

Stephen15

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning. They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.
A person from cherrywood would have to travel on three different trams to get to the city centre and beyond under your suggestion.
With my proposal they would stay on the one tram all the way to the city centre, with only those heading on metro north having to get off once.

But the Metro will serve the city centre also serving SSG, Tara Street and O'Connell Street so there won't be any need to change at Charlemont to continue to the CC.

fionnsci

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The hundreds if not thousands of people going from Bray, Cherrywood and all the stops up to Sandyford would need to travel on three different trams if they want to make it to the city centre. The mind boggles at the utter stupidity of this.

It doesn't appear you've looked at the route. Bray - Sandyford; Sandyford - SSG/Tara/OCS. Only one change.

donvito99

I'm guessing he's only just woken up or something

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Seriously.
All those people from Cherrywood and other stops will have to exit the LUAS at Sandyford and pile onto the metro. It would be mayhem in the morning.

What evidence do you have other than hyperbole that it would be "mayhem"? Is there mayhem in say New York City when passengers have to switch between different lines in a subway station? No, there isn't, in fact it's entirely routine in many other cities around the world. The Metro would have an extremely high frequency from Sandyford, and it would have a much higher capacity than a Luas tram too.

They would also have to exit the metro again at charlemont if they want to continue on to the city centre.

This is nonsense. The Metro goes into the city centre (underground) and there will be at least 3 city centre stations, I don't know where you're getting the impression that it would stop at Charlemont. Completely untrue.

A person from cherrywood would have to travel on three different trams to get to the city centre and beyond under your suggestion.

No, they wouldn't, as above. But even if it was true, again, it's completely routine for larger transport networks to require multiple transfers to complete journeys. Only in some magical fantasy land could you have an increasingly complex transport network and still serve every single person's journey with zero transfers. I mean, are you already annoyed that people have to swap from the Green Line onto the Red Line to get from Cherrywood to The Point, for example?

With my proposal they would stay on the one tram all the way to the city centre, with only those heading on metro north having to get off once.

Ah, so you don't mind transfers at all. What are you complaining about?

MJohnston

donvito99 wrote: »

I'm guessing he's only just woken up or something

Nah this user has been posting on this thread all day, ignoring responses. I'm beginning to think they're just trolling, because they can't have missed that fact the billion times it's been stated today already.

Shurimgreat

ted1 wrote: »

Where the third one coming from ?

The frequency will be higher, as will the speed so after taking in the change there wouldn’t be any delay.

Ever metro system in the world has changes. In many cities it’s not uncommon to get three different metros to get to where you want to go.

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.
Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont? What about the new Luas line north? Its all a bit light on detail. To be honest its all over the place.

Grandeeod

To stop you all arguing (its like 2006 all over again) lets wait to see what the state bodies involved in all this come up with. I'm expecting more questions than answers, but ya gotta give them a chance yet again. :rolleyes:

We are somewhere here - Tunnel portal- we don't know. Luas between SSG and Tunnel portal - we don't know. Massive inconvenience to Green line if Metro construction starts - We don't know.

We shall see.

fionnsci

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.
Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont? What about the new Luas line north? Its all a bit light on detail. To be honest its all over the place.

A valiant attempt at pivoting from "three trams to the city centre".

MJohnston

holidaysong wrote: »

Is the proposed DCU at Collins Ave. Junction stop at the Ballymun end of Collins Ave or at the Whitehall junction?

It'd have to be at the Ballymun end, as the next stop northwards is in Ballymun, and the next stop southwards is at the west side of Griffith Park. The tunnel will avoid unnecessary turns for the most part (outside of the city centre anyway, where there are different needs), so it wouldn't be curving over to Whitehall and then back again, it'll go straight north essentially.

Grandeeod

I nearly forgot. Anyone want to comment on the curve from Tara street to OCS, if the media reports are correct?

Shurimgreat

MJohnston wrote: »

What evidence do you have other than hyperbole that it would be "mayhem"? Is there mayhem in say New York City when passengers have to switch between different lines in a subway station? No, there isn't, in fact it's entirely routine in many other cities around the world. The Metro would have an extremely high frequency from Sandyford, and it would have a much higher capacity than a Luas tram too.



This is nonsense. The Metro goes into the city centre (underground) and there will be at least 3 city centre stations, I don't know where you're getting the impression that it would stop at Charlemont. Completely untrue.



No, they wouldn't, as above. But even if it was true, again, it's completely routine for larger transport networks to require multiple transfers to complete journeys. Only in some magical fantasy land could you have an increasingly complex transport network and still serve every single person's journey with zero transfers. I mean, are you already annoyed that people have to swap from the Green Line onto the Red Line to get from Cherrywood to The Point, for example?



Ah, so you don't mind transfers at all. What are you complaining about?

Spoken like a true Dublin transport planner.
New York, London, Paris are multi-dimensional lines.
LUAS/Metro North is a SINGLE Line. That means EVERYONE gets off at the one stop.
Then there is the question of space. LUAS lines will have to do a "U Turn" at Sandyford as will Metros. So two separate turning points for both. Plus platforms both ways for both. Meaning 4 platforms.

Underground works because you can put platforms and even lines at different heights. When you attempt transit stations above ground like that proposed at Sandyford you run into a myriad of problems.

As for magical fantasy land, its you who are living in it. Much like the average Dublin planner, you really haven't thought the whole thing through, the little details such as how Sandyford would work.

I despair at planners in this country. They take simple problems and turn them into the mother of all problems with the average commuter suffering.

dubhthach

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.
Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont? What about the new Luas line north? Its all a bit light on detail. To be honest its all over the place.

Who needs Dawson when you can get off at St. Stephen's Green? It's hardly any distance between the two. Likewise station on the quay at Tara Street makes up for Westmoreland stop.

The Green line will basically be refactored as two 'spurs' one from Broombridge <-> Charlemont/Harcourt Street, the other from Cherrywood (with possible future extension to Bray) <-> Sandyford.

Given there is a Luas depot at Broombridge ye'll basically have trams operating out of there going to Charlemont, likewise the existing depot at Sandyford would service the section south of there. If trams need to be moved between depots they can be done on Metro during out of hours time.

donvito99

Grandeeod wrote: »

I nearly forgot. Anyone want to comment on the curve from Tara street to OCS, if the media reports are correct?

It's not much of a turn at all from SSG East to O'CS (or even the derelict site behind the irish life building which would be a very attractive location for a station complex.)

MJohnston

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well Harcourt Street, Dawson and Westmoreland stops would be bypassed under the metro plan. A pretty big area.

A pretty big area is a bit of an exaggeration. Given the distances from Harcourt to Charlemont, or Dawson to SSG, or Westmoreland to Tara Street, people are going to walk rather than swap to a Luas for those last few metres. There's a balance between time spent transferring, and time gained on a faster mode of transport.

Do they plan to tear up the LUAS tracks after Charlemont?

What do you mean by "after Charlemont"? That's a non-specific direction.

If the tunnel portal is where we expect it to be (as I outlined with an image in a very recent post), the Metro's Charlemont station will probably be an underground one, so the Luas Charlemont stop could be retained. The Metro tunnel tracks could then merge with the existing Green Line south of Charlemont without any destruction of tracks necessary. They would install turnback switches at Charlemont for the Luas to reverse direction from Charlemont back to the city centre.

What about the new Luas line north?

What about it? It would be retained because it provides high value from Red and Green Line passengers from the North and West of the city.

Shurimgreat

fionnsci wrote: »

A valiant attempt at pivoting from "three trams to the city centre".

So they will be tearing up the Green Luas line extension to the Northside they spent hundreds of millions on in recent years?
What a complete waste of money so.

I think we can all agree the whole thing is an absolute shambles.

MJohnston

Grandeeod wrote: »

I nearly forgot. Anyone want to comment on the curve from Tara street to OCS, if the media reports are correct?

I think it's a bad idea myself (or not really a bad idea as such, just an unneeded one) , and I don't really see the necessity for OCS and Tara stations. I think OCS alone, presuming it's at lower OCS, would be very sufficient for passengers wanting to connect to Irish Rail services at Tara Street.