Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

Ah. You're making the classic internet mistake of assuming that I'm in favour of the thing that I'm pointing out potential benefits of. I'm definitely not, I think 90m needs to happen.

Ah I see.

MJohnston wrote: »

As for what other savings there are - well there are minor things, such as less fitout for stations with shorter platforms, but there are other more major things like the fact that the trains purchased will be 30m shorter.

The fit out, i.e. a steel bench or two, when you are already ordering hundreds of said benches is hardly even worth a mention on such a large project. That is even if there is a point on putting in benches if 90 second frequency is planned.

The train thing is like a cinema supermarket chian saying well we won't need to buy check out machines if we only build a store two thirds the size.

cgcsb

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

NTA are launching this project today at 2pm, they'll outline specific details on the proposed route.

oo goody. As an enginerd the Charlemont tie in will excite me no end.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

The fit out, i.e. a steel bench or two, when you are already ordering hundreds of said benches is hardly even worth a mention on such a large project. That is even if there is a point on putting in benches if 90 second frequency is planned.

The train thing is like a cinema supermarket chian saying well we won't need to buy check out machines if we only build a store two thirds the size.

Well look, I absolutely know that shorter trains are a long term failure of a decision, but the fact is that if they're 30m shorter it will be cheaper, and I suppose the point is that in Ireland, sometimes cheaper is the only way to get things actually started.

Put it this way, if the choice is between 90m platforms and trains and the Metro gets built on schedule, or 60m platforms and trains and the Metro gets built on the same schedule, then 90m platforms are an absolute no-brainer.

But more realistically, our choice is between 90m platforms and trains and the Metro gets delayed again (or what I'd call DART Undergrounded) because of cost reasons, or 60m platforms and trains and the Metro gets built. I don't like it, I think it's very short-sighted, but I'd still rather have a Metro than not.

Idbatterim

Hang on. Going with 60m trams isn’t an issue initially. Of course that is an easy “upgrade” down the tracks and it will obviously cost less initially. But they can stick the 60m platform “savings” where the sun don’t shine. Its not like it’s linear. We will build a 60m v 90m platforms and the scheme price falls accordingly by 33% etc. as cgcsb points out, I’d love to know where there get their 80,000,000 from, because that massive figure seems to have been plucked out of thin air. Of course if you are massively going to cut capacity, the figure would need to be “high” to justify it in the first place. I don’t buy it at all! All will be revealed at two pm. Fully expecting it to be the usual Irish joke. Cent “wise”, hundreds of millions foolish. No interest in value, just cost ...

Lord Glentoran

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

NTA are launching this project today at 2pm, they'll outline specific details on the proposed route.

Ah a good ole Launch. Nothing like an actual public transport system. Maybe there will be a Lunch as well. That, along with the paper printed or presentation slides made, will be the most tangible result from said Launch until this side of the crack of Doom.

God knows how many Launches there have been since the late seventies, while most crashed to ground without making orbit. Still, its a handy way of pretending that something is happening without the inconvenience of lifting shovels or *gasp* spending money.

Equium

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Ah a good ole Launch. Nothing like an actual public transport system. Maybe there will be a Lunch as well. That, along with the paper printed or presentation slides made, will be the most tangible result from said Launch until this side of the crack of Doom.

God knows how many Launches there have been since the late seventies, while most crashed to ground without making orbit. Still, its a handy way of pretending that something is happening without the inconvenience of lifting shovels or *gasp* spending money.

I feel that it is important to note that there are many excellent engineers, architects and planners performing great work behind the scenes within agencies such as the NTA and TII. A lot of them are just as frustrated as the general public that, due mostly to political decisions beyond their control, their ideas, plans and designs have been discarded and very little infrastructure actually built.

Heartbreak Hank

marno21 wrote: »

Keep an eye on www.metrolink.ie - it looks rearing to go

It's live!

MJohnston

So there is a Mater stop - is it just not where the station box was? And confirmation that they're planning on retaining all of the Charlemont to Sandyford stops after the upgrade. It's going to take a while to dig into all this info.

Stephen Strange

3000 spaces at Estuary Park and Ride is good news. Obviously it could have been better, but it could very easily have been a lot less.

bk

As far as I can tell from the map, the station boxes look to be about 90 meters, phew!

MJohnston

Confirmation of the Green Line tie-in being south of Charlemont, north of Ranelagh:

yabadabado

Stephen Strange wrote: »

3000 spaces at Estuary Park and Ride is good news. Obviously it could have been better, but it could very easily have been a lot less.

Should be at least double that. Would there be much room for further PnR after the initial 3000k is built.

Stephen Strange

Although it's not mentioned, a further p&r could be fairly easily added at Dardistown, accessible from Junction 4 of the M50.

MrMorooka

How it will work with Luas Green Line:

The route exits Charlemont Station and rises to connect to the existing Luas Green
Line to facilitate through running of Metro services onwards to Sandyford. Direct passenger
interchange with Luas Green Line services between Broombridge and Charlemont, will be
provided at Charlemont Station.
From Charlemont Station, MetroLink will run along the existing Luas Green Line through
Ranelagh, Beechwood, Cowper, Milltown, Windy Arbour, Dundrum, Balally, Kilmacud,
Stillorgan and Sandyford. The existing Green Line will be upgraded to facilitate fully
segregated Metro services which will include junction modifications where the existing
Luas line crosses Dunville Avenue and St. Raphael’s Road. Metrolink services will turn back at
Sandyford with Luas services continuing onwards to Brides Glen.

Basically, Luas will only run Broombridge-Charlemont and Sandyford-Brides Glen. Luas does the slow suburban and on-street city street bit, Metro takes over the inbetween bit on the fast railway alignment, which makes sense.

Wonder if all the trams being ordered for the Green Line will even be needed?

marno21

In the Infographic

"Connecting to the DART System at Tara Street and the Maynooth and Kildare lines at Glasnevin"

Good.

Idbatterim

MrMorooka wrote: »

How it will work with Luas Green Line:



Basically, Luas will only run Broombridge-Charlemont and Sandyford-Brides Glen. Luas does the slow suburban and on-street city street bit, Metro takes over the inbetween bit on the fast railway alignment, which makes sense.

Wonder if all the trams being ordered for the Green Line will even be needed?

surely they could be used on extensions or to increase length of the red line trams?

MrMorooka

Idbatterim wrote: »

surely they could be used on extensions or to increase length of the red line trams?

It's a slightly facetious question, I'm sure use will be found for them, extensions to Finglas/Poolbeg/Bray/Lucan might happen.

murpho999

MrMorooka wrote: »

How it will work with Luas Green Line:



Basically, Luas will only run Broombridge-Charlemont and Sandyford-Brides Glen. Luas does the slow suburban and on-street city street bit, Metro takes over the inbetween bit on the fast railway alignment, which makes sense.

Wonder if all the trams being ordered for the Green Line will even be needed?

I get the impression that the luas will run as it does now and metro sharing an upgraded line. Not very clear though.

MrMorooka

murpho999 wrote: »

I get the impression that the luas will run as it does now and metro sharing an upgraded line. Not very clear though.

Based on tweets, I don't think it's shared. I'm sure it will become clear.

https://twitter.com/PTHosford/status/976829793432997888

marno21

The Metro and Luas will not be sharing any lines. This has been said repeatedly, it's simply not feasible.

Please let this be the last time it has to be said on here

bk

Looks like they are looking at three options for trains:

LFV menas Low Floor Vehicle, like the Luas. HFV is high floor vehicle, like DART.

Scenario 1: 60m LFV – Driver Controlled
Using passenger capacity figures received from vehicle manufacturers as part of the TII NMN Vehicle Configuration study, a sample 2.65m wide, 64m long low-floor vehicle has a capacity of approx. 440 pa ssengers (at 4 passengers per m2). Adjusted for 60m, this figure reduces to 413 and at 30 TPH, this provides an estimated system capacity of 12,390 passengers per direction per hour (PPDPH)

Scenario 2: 60m HFV – Fully Automatic
Using the Copenhagen trainsets as an example, a 60m cabinless vehicle has a capacity of approx. 450 passengers (at 4 passengers per m2). At 40 TPH, this provides an estimated system capacity of 18,000 PPDPH

Scenario 3: 90m LFV – Driver Controlled
Using passenger capacity figures as derived for the original Metro North project by Jacobs, a 2.4m wide, 90m long low-floor vehicle has a capacity of approx. 674 passengers (at 4 passengers per m2). A change in vehicle width to 2.65m was estimated to provide an increase in capacity of approx. 10.4%, resulting in a figure of 744 passengers. At 30 TPH, this provides an estimated system capacity of 22,320 PPDPH

They don't seem to have studied the fourth obvious config, 90m HFV, fully automated, which by my reckoning would give you the highest throughput of 27,000 PPDPH

I kind of feel they are pushing for 90m LFV with driver option.

bk

murpho999 wrote: »

I get the impression that the luas will run as it does now and metro sharing an upgraded line. Not very clear though.

The documents make it very clear, that they won't be sharing a line, under all scenarios, you will have an interchange at Sandymount.

It seems, the new trains will be wider then Luas, no matter which scenario is gone with.

Van.Bosch

No huge clangers identified so far? Seems to tick a lot of boxes for me.

bk

Van.Bosch wrote: »

No huge clangers identified so far? Seems to tick a lot of boxes for me.

Well they seem to be leaning towards 60m long, low floor, driver operated, which would reduce the capacity and frequency quite a bit versus high floor automated.

bk

I'd also say that the location at Upper O'Connell Street isn't the best in terms of interchange with the red luas line and Connolly/Busaras.

cgcsb

Stephen's Green West station seem very remote from existing luas and proposed future DART underground station.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Well they seem to be leaning towards 60m long, low floor, driver operated, which would reduce the capacity and frequency quite a bit versus high floor automated.

I wouldn't say this is much of an issue as long as the station boxes have 90m platform capability.

Fleet can always be upgraded going forward. If there's an issue with 60m stock being over capacity from day 1 then the line itself won't be long becoming overcapacity.

cgcsb

The sun paper gives us an image that also includes proposed DART stops:

https://www.thesun.ie/news/2343754/dublin-metro-finalised-plans-revealed-by-irish-transport-chiefs-which-will-see-26km-route-connecting-swords-to-sandyford/

crucially it includes new DART stations at Heuston West and Cabra as predicted on boards. Also the layout of the lines does give a little hint about proposed service pattern i.e. Hazelhatch to GCD and Maynooth to Docks.

bk

marno21 wrote: »

I wouldn't say this is much of an issue as long as the station boxes have 90m platform capability.

Fleet can always be upgraded going forward. If there's an issue with 60m stock being over capacity from day 1 then the line itself won't be long becoming overcapacity.

It seems driver operated LFV means you are limited to a frequency of every two minutes. While a HFV driverless can go to a frequency of every 90 seconds. So a 90m HFV automated would give you significantly more capacity then a 90m LFV driver train.

Bray Head

The station boxes all seem too look about 100m long.