Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

salmocab

Im happy enough with everything today.
Just on the naFianna thing, they are right to be getting themselves setup for getting something out of this. The project is more important to the city than one GAA club but to the members it isnt. I can imagine a deal where they get a proper temporary home nearby maybe on a school ground or an empty site with proper facilities put in maybe a temporary bar and changing etc with an astro pitch then when construction is finished they get their grounds back all redeveloped to top standards new pitches and clubhouse etc. The temporary home pitch could then be given to a school or even naFianna could keep it.

Amirani

P_1 wrote: »

Closer to 5, maybe 10 if you want to ramble about in the park itself.

Only quibble I'd have with the route is it not connecting to the northern line at Donabate.

Though I can only imagine how much fun the Green Line is going to be during construction.

Yeah, I considered this today - would benefit Malahide/Portmarnock area too. Hopefully BusConnects can cover this by having sufficiently frequent and reliable orbital routes connecting Metro and Northern Line (though this is probably less likely to benefit Donabate).

Khuitlio

I wonder if they could move the O'Connell Street Station to the site of the proposed Dublin Central Shopping Centre? Would surely prevent a lot of disruption to O'Connell Street and the Luas?

bk

There are two school of thoughts on this topic. Do you put stations in the middle of where their is already high demand or do you put them 5 minutes walk away in close areas with high development potential and hope that the walk between the station and demand location creates a newly expanded area.

Henry St and Grafton St are already maxed out in terms of retail. Put the Metro at Tara and SSG East could help develop the whole area east of Grafton St and putting it at North O'Connell St could help develop the whole of O'Connell St as a new retail street (Clerys redevelopment, Arnotts redevelopments, Dr Quirkeys development, etc.).

Green Party: Ossian Smyth

I met the project director this evening and asked him your questions. The general sense I got was that they are at an early stage with many important decisions not yet made (like driverless trains and station length)

Every station will be cut and cover (no mining). In 2021 they plan to launch 2 TBMs at Fosterstown and simultaneously 2 TBMs at Griffith Park. Exit points will be Griffith Park and Charlemont. They have to tunnel under the East end of Trinity College to connect Tara St and St Stephen's Green. (I remember TCD raising objections to tunneling under historic buildings last time around but the East buildings are more recent)

Will passengers from south of Sandyford have to transfer to metro - how will this work?
Yes- everyone has to get off and change train.

Is the Whitworth station planned as an interchange with Irish Rail or not? If so, are CIE actually engaged with this idea?
Yes - it's an interchange with both heavy rail lines

If platform length is 60m - will further excavation be needed to increase to 90m, or will that be there from the start?
They haven't decided how long the platforms will be - this is to be determined during the public consultation. The station plans have been prepared onn the basis of 90m platforms.

Where will the current section of Green Line at Charlemont end?
Green line will be in two segments : Bride's Glen to Sandyford and Charlemont to Broombridge.

How many park and ride facilities are incorporated into this plan?
One 3,000 space P&R at M1/Estuary

Also Griffith Ave may be used post Bus Connects as an artery for a high frequency orbital bus route - maybe it makes more sense to have a station there rather than Griffith Park?
They consider the walk from Griffith Park to Griffith Ave to be short.

Is the Northwood Stop still on the Old Ballymun Road, or has it been moved west of the Ballymun Road?
East of Ballymun Rd

Why has the line shifted from Drumcondra westwards to Whitworth Road?
To connect with both Kildare and Maynooth lines.

Is the rolling stock to be 100% low floor (like the Luas)?
To be determined in consultation

What will happen to the existing Green line both north and south of the Metro alignment? Will the metro be fully separated from the Luas at both sides?
Yes fully separated - two independent segments

What scope/provisions are there for future extensions to both the metro and Luas systems once this is complete?
Scope for longer trams and higher frequencies on Luas lines.

What is the rough schedule for the project, in terms of planning, funding becoming available, construction starting, modifications to the Green line, and opening?
Construction and Tunnel to start in 2021 - complete by 2027 (cough, cough)

What is the expected frequency of the metro?
Every 2 mins

Are there provisions for automated trains?
To be determined during public consultation. (this seems like a very sensitive topic for the project team)

pphpd?
15k pphpd based on 60m trains with 2min headway

Will it have direct access onto and off the m1 and will a fully a fully integrated ticketing setup, as in I go online buy a ticket for p+r which includes journey into cc and back, on the metro, be available?
Yes

What will Mater box be used for?
Apparently it's not a box but just a retaining wall which cost millions.

How are they electrifying the tunnel, will it be overhead wires or 3rd rail?
Not yet decided - to be discussed in consultation.

What is the planned frequency at rush hour
Every 2 mins

When is public face to face consultation?
Starts 27th March to 11 May in 7 locations.

Supplier of trains?
Not yet known.

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

In no surprise, Irish Times are leading with stories about homes being demolished and Na Fianna's pitches

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-metro-may-require-homes-to-be-demolished-1.3437105

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-pledge-to-na-fianna-as-work-on-metro-link-will-hit-pitches-1.3437035

Given Pascal Donohue's previous DU issues due to East Wall constituents complaining, this may be an interesting one

While this is not the Conspiracy Theory forum, I won't be surprised if these are the start of issues that will delay and ultimately kill off the Metro concept for yet another few years and with political agreement. This isn't blind cynicism Marno. It's based on history. An 18 year history since Metro was first suggested by an actual Government. I want it so much. But doubt it for lots of reasons. Try and understand that not all doubters are random and recent naysayers. Some of us have been around this thing a long time. Until a TBM is underground, we won't count any chickens.

Grandeeod

Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

I met the project director this evening and asked him your questions. The general sense I got was that they are at an early stage with many important decisions not yet made (like driverless trains and station length)

Every station will be cut and cover (no mining). In 2021 they plan to launch 2 TBMs at Fosterbrook and simultaneously 2 TBMs at Griffith Park. Exit points will be Griffith Park and Charlemont. They have to tunnel under the East end of Trinity College to connect Tara St and St Stephen's Green. (I remember TCD raising objections to tunneling under historic buildings last time around but the East buildings are more recent)

Will passengers from south of Sandyford have to transfer to metro - how will this work?
Yes- everyone has to get off and change train.

Is the Whitworth station planned as an interchange with Irish Rail or not? If so, are CIE actually engaged with this idea?
Yes - it's an interchange with both heavy rail lines

If platform length is 60m - will further excavation be needed to increase to 90m, or will that be there from the start?
They haven't decided how long the platforms will be - this is to be determined during the public consultation. The station plans have been prepared onn the basis of 90m platforms.

Where will the current section of Green Line at Charlemont end?
Green line will be in two segments : Bride's Glen to Sandyford and Charlemont to Broombridge.

How many park and ride facilities are incorporated into this plan?
One 3,000 space P&R at M1/Estuary

Also Griffith Ave may be used post Bus Connects as an artery for a high frequency orbital bus route - maybe it makes more sense to have a station there rather than Griffith Park?
They consider the walk from Griffith Park to Griffith Ave to be short.

Is the Northwood Stop still on the Old Ballymun Road, or has it been moved west of the Ballymun Road?
East of Ballymun Rd

Why has the line shifted from Drumcondra westwards to Whitworth Road?
To connect with both Kildare and Maynooth lines.

Is the rolling stock to be 100% low floor (like the Luas)?
To be determined in consultation

What will happen to the existing Green line both north and south of the Metro alignment? Will the metro be fully separated from the Luas at both sides?
Yes fully separated - two independent segments

What scope/provisions are there for future extensions to both the metro and Luas systems once this is complete?
Scope for longer trams and higher frequencies on Luas lines.

What is the rough schedule for the project, in terms of planning, funding becoming available, construction starting, modifications to the Green line, and opening?
Construction and Tunnel to start in 2021 - complete by 2027 (cough, cough)

What is the expected frequency of the metro?
Every 2 mins

Are there provisions for automated trains?
To be determined during public consultation. (this seems like a very sensitive topic for the project team)

pphpd?
15k pphd based on 60m trains with 2min headway

Will it have direct access onto and off the m1 and will a fully a fully integrated ticketing setup, as in I go online buy a ticket for p+r which includes journey into cc and back, on the metro, be available?
Yes

What will Mater box be used for?
Apparently it's not a box but just a retaining wall which cost millions.

How are they electrifying the tunnel, will it be overhead wires or 3rd rail?
Not yet decided - to be discussed in consultation.

What is the planned frequency at rush hour
Every 2 mins

When is public face to face consultation?
Starts 27th March to 11 May in 7 locations.

Supplier of trains?
Not yet known.

Many thanks. I bet I feel as disillusioned as you. But once again cheers for getting the answers that many here needed.

P_1

Also wonder if tunnelling under Leinster House might cause any issues.

LeinsterDub

P_1 wrote: »

Also wonder if tunnelling under Leinster House might cause any issues.

Given other countries experience of tunneling. No absolutely no issues.

bk

Thanks very much Ossian for answering all our questions.

I'd say those of us who care should be putting on pressure to make sure we get at least 90m station platforms and high floor driverless trains with option to extend to 90m.

Also the whole green line tie in and upgrade seems quiet wishy-washy from the plans compared to the rest of the line. Important questions need to be asked about what the disturbance to Luas will be during construction, how long and how it can be mitigated.

bk

Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

Every station will be cut and cover (no mining). In 2021 they plan to launch 2 TBMs at Fosterbrook and simultaneously 2 TBMs at Griffith Park. Exit points will be Griffith Park and Charlemont.

This tidbit is interesting. So Na Fianna were mistaken. The TBM portal is not planned to go on their grounds. That greatly reduces the disturbance to them to just a 120 meter station box. Should be only a one year or so disturbance, not 3 to 6 years they were claiming.

Seems they were crying about nothing.

Synode

What's the story with road crossings on Luas green section from Charlemont to Sandyford when upgraded to Metro. Will they remain? I'm thinking of the one from Ranelagh to Rathmines near Palmerston Road

normanoffside

Where is Fosterbrook? Google is showing me Mt Merrion?

Khuitlio

Synode wrote: »

What's the story with road crossings on Luas green section from Charlemont to Sandyford when upgraded to Metro. Will they remain? I'm thinking of the one from Ranelagh to Rathmines near Palmerston Road

All to be closed. Elevated track and stop at Stillorgan.

ricimaki

Synode wrote: »

What's the story with road crossings on Luas green section from Charlemont to Sandyford when upgraded to Metro. Will they remain? I'm thinking of the one from Ranelagh to Rathmines near Palmerston Road

Full details are here. Basically, they will all be closed, except for Stillorgan, which will have some elevated track over the road.

P_1

bk wrote: »

This tidbit is interesting. So Na Fianna were mistaken. The TBM portal is not planned to go on their grounds. That greatly reduces the disturbance to them to just a 120 meter station box. Should be only a one year or so disturbance, not 3 to 6 years they were claiming.

Seems they were crying about nothing.

I can't imagine the TBM portal starting in Griffith Park though. It's a steep valley going town to the Tolka bound by residential roads and schools. Presumably site access will have to be from Mobhi Road which means the only logical spot in that area is Na Fianna.

Kermit.de.frog

So it's basically an underground tram?

lol. I have €20 euro in my pocket - just take it and burn it...

LeinsterDub

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So it's basically an underground tram?

lol. I have €20 euro in my pocket - just take it and burn it...

The type of rolling stock hasn't been decided.

sdanseo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So it's basically an underground tram?

lol. I have €20 euro in my pocket - just take it and burn it...

Not really, Luas is max 10k ppdph, Metro is 15k as proposed and with 90m trams closer to 22k - not far off heavy rail.

Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

I met the project director this evening and asked him your questions. The general sense I got was that they are at an early stage with many important decisions not yet made (like driverless trains and station length)

Ossian, if an opportunity arises to ask further questions, I'd be interested to know how the change from Stephen's Green West to East and incorporation of Tara Street as an interchange affects the project director's thoughts on DART underground. If they are choosing this option what is the scope for DART to connect in the future, as was proposed?

oisin_reme

bk wrote: »

This tidbit is interesting. So Na Fianna were mistaken. The TBM portal is not planned to go on their grounds. That greatly reduces the disturbance to them to just a 120 meter station box. Should be only a one year or so disturbance, not 3 to 6 years they were claiming.

Seems they were crying about nothing.

Maybe it means it's at the stop which is called Griffith Park rather than within the park itself?

sdanseo

marno21 wrote: »

In no surprise, Irish Times are leading with stories about homes being demolished and Na Fianna's pitches

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-metro-may-require-homes-to-be-demolished-1.3437105

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-pledge-to-na-fianna-as-work-on-metro-link-will-hit-pitches-1.3437035

Given Pascal Donohue's previous DU issues due to East Wall constituents complaining, this may be an interesting one

Constituents near either project can do one. Their right to object needs to be mercilessly squashed for the good of the rest of the entire city.

Dublin needs MASSIVE (much more than just this one line) investment to grow any more. It's already a complete joke by international standards. There is no understating how utterly devoid our planning strategies are of any common sense and the idea that a major public transport initiative, 50 years late already, might be delayed by JohnJoe's ingrown toenail being aggrevated by the loss of half his back garden - for which he will be very well compensated - is the sort of thing that defines the phrase "only in Ireland".

This needs to be shovel ready sooner. Dublin needed this and more two decades ago. Every other civilised industrialised city in EUROPE has one.

The idea that it's going to take 18 months to get consultation out of the way and nearly the same again for ABP to come up with a decision is unfathomable, inexcusable, pathetic.

Kermit.de.frog

sdanseo wrote: »

Not really, Luas is max 10k ppdph, Metro is 15k as proposed and with 90m trams closer to 22k - not far off heavy rail.

I'm just one of those people where "not far off" is not good enough for something like this that has to last generations.

If we are going to do something just do it properly first time round without the penny pinching.

It makes life so much easier down the road.

Donegal Storm

Is it confirmed as twin bore then? A single bore with stacked lines would allow for much easier platform extensions in future if they are just going with 60m platforms.

sdanseo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm just one of those people where "not far off" is not good enough for something like this that has to last generations.

If we are going to do something just do it properly first time round without the penny pinching.

It makes life so much easier down the road.

90% of the build is the tunnels. Once they are done platforms and so on are expanded much more easily than having to sink more TBM shafts and wait for them to worm along.
That's why 3 years of fluffing about when the more clear cut sections such as Airport to Swords at the very least could be started almost immediately. There's really only one route and one empty space to put the Airport station, so get the damn shovels out.

That said, I agree that the lower end of these figures 12-15k ppdph is far too low. We need to be aiming for 20k. We have seen the lack of vision caused by Luas beign designed to too low a spec - especially the Green line - and you only need to walk through College Green or hell, read the news to know that it's causing absolute mayhem.

Planning to go to the Swords meeting on Tuesday. Lord help their patience if there's a Q&A. :rolleyes:

bk

oisin_reme wrote: »

Maybe it means it's at the stop which is called Griffith Park rather than within the park itself?

I just checked the plans and yes, you are correct. They are calling the station on the Na Fianna grounds Griffith Park West.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm just one of those people where "not far off" is not good enough for something like this that has to last generations.

If we are going to do something just do it properly first time round without the penny pinching.

It makes life so much easier down the road.

Each Luas line already carries more passengers a day then the DART does.

The planned Metro has vastly more capacity then DART does. What has more capacity a 180m DART every 10 minutes or a 90m Metro every 2 minutes?

Kermit.de.frog

bk wrote: »

I just checked the plans and yes, you are correct. They are calling the station on the Na Fianna grounds Griffith Park West.



Each Luas line already carries more passengers a day then the DART does.

The planned Metro has vastly more capacity then DART does. What has more capacity a 180m DART every 10 minutes or a 90m Metro every 2 minutes?

How about underground heavy rail every 2 minutes?

Idbatterim

What are the proposed hours of operation?

sdanseo

bk wrote: »

I just checked the plans and yes, you are correct. They are calling the station on the Na Fianna grounds Griffith Park West.



Each Luas line already carries more passengers a day then the DART does.

The planned Metro has vastly more capacity then DART does. What has more capacity a 180m DART every 10 minutes or a 90m Metro every 2 minutes?

The DART is high floor, configured for more standing and significantly wider than a Luas/Metro (1600mm vs 1435mm gauge) and fits around 1,000 people as opposed to 400 on a Luas or maybe 600 on a 90m Metro.

You'd only need to run one DART for every 2 or 3 trams to have the same efficiency and DART Underground is the more important project because it goes out further from the city and connects more of the commuter towns.

Amirani

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How about underground heavy rail every 2 minutes?

Way too costly, would never get the political support needed.

sdanseo

Amirani wrote: »

Way too costly, would never get the political support needed.

No more costly than building the Metro if it's done right. The highest cost of an undeground tunnel by far is the tunneling, and a track that's 17cm wider for heavy rail isn't going to increase the cost enormously.
Metro is the right choice for this route but needs to be scalable to at least 20k ppdph

The DART project still needs to happen because it connects all 4 heavy rail lines which go further out, have higher capacity and ultimately connect more people who can then complete their journeys on the core inner-city system incl. Metro/Luas/Bus.