Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

roadmaster

with the the current development in cherrywood and the huge pressure it will bring on public transport is there a reason the metro is not brought to there to help with future demand?

citizen6

Hello all. Excuse my ignorance - can anyone help with these questions?

Could the TBMs be launched from the Ballymun Rd side of Albert College Park, even if there is no stop located there?

Would it be more beneficial to DCU staff/students to move the Collins Ave stop into Albert College Park, immediately west of the tennis courts?

If TBMs are not launched from Na Fianna, could the Griffith metro stop be moved 150m south to the Home Farm soccer pitch. Home Farm have most of their pitches elsewhere and would lose this one for a shorter time if TBMs are not launched from here.

And further to Roadmaster's post above, is there any reason Metros couldn't run (at Luas speed) from Sandyford to Cherrywood?

sameoldname

citizen6 wrote: »

Hello all. Excuse my ignorance - can anyone help with these questions?

Could the TBMs be launched from the Ballymun Rd side of Albert College Park, even if there is no stop located there?

By having the launching point for the TBM's at the same location as a station box you reduce the amount of digging needed to be done. If you move the launching point to another location you still need to dig the station box so 2 holes instead of one large one.

citizen6 wrote: »

Would it be more beneficial to DCU staff/students to move the Collins Ave stop into Albert College Park, immediately west of the tennis courts?

No idea, but it's not being built solely for DCU. Probably has more to do with catchment area and distance between stops.

citizen6 wrote: »

If TBMs are not launched from Na Fianna, could the Griffith metro stop be moved 150m south to the Home Farm soccer pitch. Home Farm have most of their pitches elsewhere and would lose this one for a shorter time if TBMs are not launched from here.

That puts it very close to the planned Whitworth stop and thus reduces the catchment area.

citizen6 wrote: »

And further to Roadmaster's post above, is there any reason Metros couldn't run (at Luas speed) from Sandyford to Cherrywood?

There are a good few level crossings and some curves are extremely tight. Better suited for Trams really. I'm not sure either if that section has the clearance for the wider Metro trains.

Lord Glentoran

roadmaster wrote: »

with the the current development in cherrywood and the huge pressure it will bring on public transport is there a reason the metro is not brought to there to help with future demand?

It isn't impossible - the trackbed of the old mainline between Stillorgan, Foxrock and Carrickmines is mostly clear of obstruction. I can't see how the Luas section between Sandyford and the 'Racecourse' platform would work for Metro.

Stephen15

roadmaster wrote: »

with the the current development in cherrywood and the huge pressure it will bring on public transport is there a reason the metro is not brought to there to help with future demand?

The line from Sandyford to Brides Glen has many tight curves and open level crossings which would be unsuitable towards high frequency HFV metro operation. If you made the line to Brides Glen metro you would have to go for the 60m LVF option severely reducing capacity on the Metro.

To sum up the line from Sandyford to Charlemount has been built with metro in mind where as the line South of Sandyford has been with trams in mind. Also there are many suburban tram systems in other European cities which work very connecting to higher capacity metro and rail systems.

jd

citizen6 wrote: »

Would it be more beneficial to DCU staff/students to move the Collins Ave stop into Albert College Park, immediately west of the tennis courts?

It's quite probable there will be a high frequency orbital bus route using Collins Ave after the Bus Connects project, so you wouldn't want the metro stop too far from it.

marno21

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It isn't impossible - the trackbed of the old mainline between Stillorgan, Foxrock and Carrickmines is mostly clear of obstruction. I can't see how the Luas section between Sandyford and the 'Racecourse' platform would work for Metro.

Several houses and tennis courts along the route beside Leopardstown Racecourse.

The fact that there are tennis courts along the route gives an indication as to the type of residents along the route, which makes it highly unlikely that it'll ever be a working railway again

citizen6

jd wrote: »

It's quite probable there will be a high frequency orbital bus route using Collins Ave after the Bus Connects project, so you wouldn't want the metro stop too far from it.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

sameoldname wrote: »

By having the launching point for the TBM's at the same location as a station box you reduce the amount of digging needed to be done. If you move the launching point to another location you still need to dig the station box so 2 holes instead of one large one.



No idea, but it's not being built solely for DCU. Probably has more to do with catchment area and distance between stops.



That puts it very close to the planned Whitworth stop and thus reduces the catchment area.



There are a good few level crossings and some curves are extremely tight. Better suited for Trams really. I'm not sure either if that section has the clearance for the wider Metro trains.

Thanks for the response. Catchment area issue aside (and it's only 150m of a difference), it looks to me that the construction site for a standard station box would fit on the Hoem Farm soccer pitch site and not affect Na Fianna. If so, moving TBM portal to the pitches on west side of Albert College Park would eliminate the affect on Na Fianna pitches. I think the Albert College Park pitches would be less of a loss to the community overall than the Na Fianna ones.

sameoldname

citizen6 wrote: »

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.



Thanks for the response. Catchment area issue aside (and it's only 150m of a difference), it looks to me that the construction site for a standard station box would fit on the Hoem Farm soccer pitch site and not affect Na Fianna. If so, moving TBM portal to the pitches on west side of Albert College Park would eliminate the affect on Na Fianna pitches. I think the Albert College Park pitches would be less of a loss to the community overall than the Na Fianna ones.

While that may be, I wouldn't know as I'm not from there nor have I ever lived in that part of Dublin, your proposal is simply to get rid of a stop and leave over a 1 kilometre gap between 2 stations. I would suggest that would be, in the long-term, far more of a loss to the community than losing access to some pitches for 6 years in my opinion. Also, you're asking for another group to take the hit and I'm sure they'll be just as emotional about losing their grounds.

jd

sameoldname wrote: »

While that may be, I wouldn't know as I'm not from there nor have I ever lived in that part of Dublin, your proposal is simply to get rid of a stop and leave over a 1 kilometre gap between 2 stations. I would suggest that would be, in the long-term, far more of a loss to the community than losing access to some pitches for 6 years in my opinion. Also, you're asking for another group to take the hit and I'm sure they'll be just as emotional about losing their grounds.

I don't think he is suggesting that we lose a station. We still have the DCU station and the Griiffith station is moved slightly south. Under the current proposals Home Farm will lose their pitch for up to six years, construction of just a station box should take a lot less than that.

sameoldname

jd wrote: »

I don't think he is suggesting that we lose a station. We still have the DCU station and the Griiffith station is moved slightly south. Under the current proposals Home Farm will lose their pitch for up to six years, construction of just a station box should take a lot less than that.

Sorry, indeed you are correct. But that means removing 2 separate sets of pitches no? Also, if you put the TBM's in at Albert College Park then they lose their pitches for 6 years. Someone loses out for the 6 years regardless and now a second pitch at Home Farm would be gone for the time it takes to build the station.

sameoldname

Just thinking about why the TBM's are going to go in here. I assume it's because it's roughly middle distance of the tunnel section and that they'll send each TBM out from the centre and then turn them around at the end to drill the second tunnel and extract them through the entry point one they are finished?

I'm guessing you couldn't send them both in at Dardistown to dig one side each because there's no space at Charlemont to dig a hole to get them out and you can't pull them back through the completed tunnels? If that's the case you could do it with only 1 TBM but it'd take 12 years instead of 6!

Also, I'm figuring they won't do a Channel Tunnel style job where they get the TBM to dig down after it's finished and just bury it there.

bk

For those interested,

Here is what the interior of the Barcelona Metro looks like:



And here is what the Copenhagen one looks like:



The Copenhagen one is particularly interesting as it is an example of a HFV, driverless Metro that the Metrolink people looked at as an option for here.

And this is what the front of the train looks like with no driver cab, very cool:

MayoSalmon

jd wrote: »

I don't think he is suggesting that we lose a station. We still have the DCU station and the Griiffith station is moved slightly south. Under the current proposals Home Farm will lose their pitch for up to six years, construction of just a station box should take a lot less than that.

Home farm have another facility and look they will get very handsomely rewarded for the inconvenience I would imagine.

Take the good with the bad.

bk

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

sameoldname

bk wrote: »

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

I completely agree but how long do you think it would take them to do the work? I'm assuming the entirety of the upgraded section of Green Line would have to be closed while the works are happening and it wouldn't reopen until the entire Metro is ready to roll? Is it even politically possible?

citizen6

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

bk

sameoldname wrote: »

I completely agree but how long do you think it would take them to do the work? I'm assuming the entirety of the upgraded section of Green Line would have to be closed while the works are happening and it wouldn't reopen until the entire Metro is ready to roll? Is it even politically possible?

Good, question, I think there are ways around it. After-all the tie-in at Ranelagh is going to be WAY more disruptive.

citizen6 wrote: »

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

I think that location would be out of alignment with the stations before and after.

It is clear from the plans that were possible, they want to go straight down underneath the roads, like Mobhi Road, rather then houses.

I suspect this allows them to build it more shallow, which probably greatly reduces construction costs.

bk

bk wrote: »

Looking at the above pictures and reading about the Copenhagen Metro, there is no doubt in my mind at all that we should be going with driverless HFV.

Any idea what the Singapore MRT are using? I was there last year on business and I was very impressed with their metro. They were made by Bombardier i believe.

I only realized they were driverless when i happened to get on the first carriage and i was where the driver should be looking down the tunnel :cool:

citizen6

bk wrote: »

Good, question, I think there are ways around it. After-all the tie-in at Ranelagh is going to be WAY more disruptive.



I think that location would be out of alignment with the stations before and after.

It is clear from the plans that were possible, they want to go straight down underneath the roads, like Mobhi Road, rather then houses.

I suspect this allows them to build it more shallow, which probably greatly reduces construction costs.

The proposed tunnel route goes crosses Griffith Ave at Mobhi Rd. A stop there or 100m west on Ballymun Rd would give better connections and catchment.

A straight line from Cross Guns bridge to Collins Ave/Ballymun Rd junction would run under Bons Secours hospital, so that's not an option. But a more direct tunnelling route could be possible if the stop is at Griffith Ave rather than Griffith Park. But even with the same tunnel route, I think the stop on Griffith Ave makes more sense.

sameoldname

citizen6 wrote: »

Given the location of the Whitworth Road and Collins Ave stops, wouldn't it make more sense for the intermediate stop to be at Griffith Ave? Closer to halfway between them than the proposed Griffith Park stop. Might be possible to squeeze it in on Ballymun Rd opposite Mobhi Post Office.

Stopping at Griffith Ave would allow for better bus connections as was suggested for Collins Ave. It might also allow a straighter run for the tunnelling, although I understand why they prefer to tunnel under the road than under houses.

I'm guessing it's due to cost. It's cheaper to put a station where there is already a hole for the TBM entry point.

bk

As for the idea of putting it under Albert College Park. A few other issues:

- The park has a number of playing fields used by Na Fianna (ironically), Glasnevin Soccer Club, Bohemian F.C., as well as Boules, running track, tennis courts and a playground.
- It is accessible to the public to use all of most days in a way that the Na Fianna grounds really aren't.

To be honest I think Albert College Park would be a much greater loss to the local community for 6 years then Na Fianna would be.

I think if I was Na Fianna supporter, I'd focus more on trying to get both the station and portal built on the green fields that DCU own on Griffith Avenue. I think that would receive less location objection then Albert Park, though it might ramp up the cost of the Metro, due to more difficult alignment.

Also that location would put it smack bang between both the Swords Road (600m) and Ballymun Road (500m) making it a nice interchange point for buses on both of those roads, along with the orbital route on Griffith Avenue.

citizen6

bk wrote: »

As for the idea of putting it under Albert College Park. A few other issues:

- The park has a number of playing fields used by Na Fianna (ironically), Glasnevin Soccer Club, Bohemian F.C., as well as Boules, running track, tennis courts and a playground.
- It is accessible to the public to use all of most days in a way that the Na Fianna grounds really aren't.

To be honest I think Albert College Park would be a much greater loss to the local community for 6 years then Na Fianna would be.

I think if I was Na Fianna supporter, I'd focus more on trying to get both the station and portal built on the green fields that DCU own on Griffith Avenue. I think that would receive less location objection then Albert Park, though it might ramp up the cost of the Metro, due to more difficult alignment.

Also that location would put it smack bang between both the Swords Road (600m) and Ballymun Road (500m) making it a nice interchange point for buses on both of those roads, along with the orbital route on Griffith Avenue.

Agreed, those DCU fields would be an option. Not sure if they would look to move the Collins Ave stop in that case.

Re Albert College Park, they would just need the pitches adjacent to the Ballymun Rd, not the playground, tennis courts etc.

bk

One thing though, if you look at the plan documents it is clear that they are basically running the tunnel down the length of Ballymun Road and St Mobhi Road and that it thus doesn't run under any houses.

I suspect, but don't know for certain, that this means they can build the tunnel shallow and it saves costs.

If you go slightly off this line to Griffith Avenue or the post office at Mobhi Road, then you are now going under houses and I suspect that it then forces them to tunnel much deeper along the entire length of this section and would have a big impact on costs.

So I think these other options are technically possible, but not without cost.

blanch152

sameoldname wrote: »

Just thinking about why the TBM's are going to go in here. I assume it's because it's roughly middle distance of the tunnel section and that they'll send each TBM out from the centre and then turn them around at the end to drill the second tunnel and extract them through the entry point one they are finished?

I'm guessing you couldn't send them both in at Dardistown to dig one side each because there's no space at Charlemont to dig a hole to get them out and you can't pull them back through the completed tunnels? If that's the case you could do it with only 1 TBM but it'd take 12 years instead of 6!

Also, I'm figuring they won't do a Channel Tunnel style job where they get the TBM to dig down after it's finished and just bury it there.

My understanding is that they will reuse them for Dart Underground.

Dats me

Why is there a portal going down there anyway? Would it not at the beginning and the end of the tunnel?

Stephen15

Could they not buy a tunnel boring machine from Crossrail perhaps?

P_1

Another (potentially controversial) option could be to have the TBMs start digging on Mobhi Road (around here https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lin+Kee/@53.3794609,-6.2655191,182m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e0ce385c32f:0x8044527d20c494a7!8m2!3d53.379521!4d-6.266001 )

Though that might involve CPOing about 12 houses.

yabadabado

P_1 wrote: »

Another (potentially controversial) option could be to have the TBMs start digging on Mobhi Road (around here https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lin+Kee/@53.3794609,-6.2655191,182m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x48670e0ce385c32f:0x8044527d20c494a7!8m2!3d53.379521!4d-6.266001 )

Though that might involve CPOing about 12 houses.

It's tough on the sports clubs affected but it's a much better option to use those grounds than CPO houses.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

Could they not buy a tunnel boring machine from Crossrail perhaps?

Why?

Given that the last one was dismantled and recycled I would doubt it would be much use in Dublin.

Sure usually they just get rammed into the earth when completed and buried.