Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Idbatterim

At this point. Given the bs about na Fianna. Wouldn’t ditching that location now. Make sense? It’s a battle that’s not worth fighting in my opinion ... this could be like the water charges, brought down over something pathetic...

They’ll probably be dissapiunted when they find out they won’t be lavished with compensation for their “plight” ...

tom1ie

Grandeeod wrote: »

While there is a lot of anger here, your insightful post, which I agree with, will fly over too many heads. Nobody likes to accept that this kind of political chicanery goes on. But when you stand in the corridors of Leinster House and listen to these eejits, it all makes sense.

The Primetime piece tonight was diabolical, yet predictable. Until the return of a brazen, informed and and very vocal rail lobby, the voices here will never be heard and idiot opinions from so called economists and professors already proved wrong, will never be discredited. Get off your phones, tablets, laptops and PCs lads. Organize yourselves and provide an informed alternative source of info.

Listen I agree that this could be a sherade and Leo et all have the potential to turn around in 5 years time and say, well at least we tried!

But we do need a strong established voice to be carrying the metrolink torch, and I personally think the only political party with a track record on this is the green party. I will be sending an e mail to eamon Ryan conveying my thoughts which I will share here.
Also whatever happened to platform 11? If ever we needed the rail pressure group its now.
If this metro bashing continues much longer, which it will, local politicians will be swayed, and with the minority government, metrolink will be shelved again.

Idbatterim

We can post here as much as we like. Lads setting up a website costs near nothing. Wouldn’t that and social media pressure via fb paid ads, put the pressure on? Rte are a farce. Goes to show you the power of the media... we need more than a few of us on this forum just all agreeing with each other ... and rightfully condemning the idiots at every level here and in rte. See in a balanced “debate” there wouldn’t even be an argument, hands down people would see the merits of metro link. Look at this hack job by the clowns in montrose though !!! Arghhhhhh!!!!

Imagine putting Facebook ads up in north Dublin. Rightfully pointing out the atrocious transport in the area. Years of neglect. Failure from politicians. To deliver. House price rides from the nearby new Luas line...

pmcc1

Doesn’t anyone expect that the works site intended for the Na Fianna grounds will simply be moved 100m South to the Whitehall College of Further Education’s Football field? It’s a roughly equivalent size, and the CD ETB will be a lot easier for the NTA to push around than all those well-connected Na Fianners.
Location link:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3732143,-6.2646788,294m/data=!3m1!1e3
[Apologies if this has already been covered on this thread]

CarlosHarpic

"whatever happened to platform 11?"

They told the truth. Played hardball and got the results.

No one liked it, but there are commuter trains in the PPT and the WRC is dead.

The hardball tactics worked. Because the truth is always the truth.

strassenwo!f

They're not Platform 11 anymore. It's now 'rail' something, but the full name eludes me. You'd probably find them on Google.

I am still struggling with several aspects of this project, though I am broadly in favour. On the northern section, between let's say Swords and St. Stephen's Green, my impression is that it's longer than the former metronorth route, though I am open to correction on that.

It's also very close, at Whitworth Road, to the LUAS green line at Cabra, and I wonder if there mightn't be considerable overlap of catchment areas, which wouldn't have been a problem with the former route, which would have gone almost halfway between the northside DART and the LUAS along the Broadstone alignment.

In short, I'm not really getting how the advantages of the northside portion of this new plan outperform the advantages of the old metro north plan.

bk

pmcc1 wrote: »

Doesn’t anyone expect that the works site intended for the Na Fianna grounds will simply be moved 100m South to the Whitehall College of Further Education’s Football field? It’s a roughly equivalent size, and the CD ETB will be a lot easier for the NTA to push around than all those well-connected Na Fianners.
Location link:
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3732143,-6.2646788,294m/data=!3m1!1e3
[Apologies if this has already been covered on this thread]

The field south of Na Fianna is actually owned by Home Farm Football Club and it is also been taken as part of these works.

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In short, I'm not really getting how the advantages of the northside portion of this new plan outperform the advantages of the old metro north plan.

It will be able to interconnect with two rail lines at Whitworth Road, the Maynooth line and the Hazelhatch - PPT - Connolly/Docklands line.

Per the old alignment it would have only interconnected with one of the lines at Drumcondra. Whitworth Road interchange is key to making the DART Expansion (DU lite) plan work.

tom1ie

https://www.railusers.ie

That's them. I'll see if they've any plans on kicking up a fuss and maybe a bit of positivity in the media while they're at it.

Grandeeod

tom1ie wrote: »

https://www.railusers.ie

That's them. I'll see if they've any plans on kicking up a fuss and maybe a bit of positivity in the media while they're at it.

The name was changed around 2006/7. Since then the people involved have changed too and they are nowhere near as effective as the original crew. A pity really.

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

https://www.railusers.ie

That's them. I'll see if they've any plans on kicking up a fuss and maybe a bit of positivity in the media while they're at it.

Looking at their website, they look as if it has not been updated since 2008.

I do not think there is much going on there.

CarlosHarpic

My advice would be not to fight Barrett, Na Fianna, McCarthy and the Meeja. They will only turn it around to suit themselves. This is what Official Ireland wants you do to.

Instead, I would target politicians and councillors along the route and portray them as "metro killers" if they do not come out suporting the project. If they are not from Dublin then portray them as feckless bogmen who hate the jackeens or, can't grasp urban life. Leaftlets with this dropped in letter boxes.

I'm serious. Going to Public Meetings and Saturday morning TD clinics is pointless.

Attack the head of the snake. Because the fangs are there.

Sam Russell

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

My advice would be not to fight Barrett, Na Fianna, McCarthy and the Meeja. They will only turn it around to suit themselves. This is what Official Ireland wants you do to.

McCarthy and Barrett have past history of objection to all projects that are not road or cost a bit of investment. McCarthy refers Metrolink as a Luas line, despite the fact that it is not, and that it only serves one suburb but fails to name it. Is it Swords, or Ballymun, or Sandyford, or Dundrum, or Ranelagh, or Galsnevin, or even the airport. He could not have meant the airport because that only handles 30 million of passengers a year and only 50,000 workers that go there everyday.

He clearly has not read much, if any, of the collection of documents released at the announcement of Metrolink. He said that a 'bus' connects to the airport fron Vincents (I presume he means St Vincent's University Hospital) in 22 minutes - the same time for the Metro. He failed to point out that the 'bus' actually is timetabled for 45 mins for that journey, and traffic delays frequently mean a 30 min extra. He also failed to point out that the 'bus' goes every 30 mins with a capacity for 68 seats.

Barrett referred to a 27 page cost-benefit analysis. He never mentioned to tonne of other documentation released, nor did he explain how a cost-benefit analysis could be produced when the route is still only the 'preferred route'. He also predicted that the trains would be empty, just like the Luas ones are. He also appeared very agitated for some reason.

The two of them have been commentators that have been 'agin everything' for decades and anyway are due to leave the stage before the first shovel goes in the Na Fianna pitch to make room for the TBM.

I will be going to the consultation next Wednesday to see what they say. I will have my questions ready.

ignorance is strength

Apparently Colm McCarthy and Sean Barrett were drinking buddies.

“Colm McCarthy was the dean of the so-called ‘Doheny and Nesbitt School of Economics’, where he delivered nightly lectures in the company of Sean Barrett, Moore McDowell, the late Paul Tansey and others.”

What justification can there be for giving such prominence to two equally-aligned economists?

And as is always the way with superficial Prime Time, we never really reached a conclusion. Different positions were presented, but they were never brought into conflict with each other. Regardless of your prior opinion, you could have finished watching that episode and felt yourself vindicated.

tom1ie

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

My advice would be not to fight Barrett, Na Fianna, McCarthy and the Meeja. They will only turn it around to suit themselves. This is what Official Ireland wants you do to.

Instead, I would target politicians and councillors along the route and portray them as "metro killers" if they do not come out suporting the project. If they are not from Dublin then portray them as feckless bogmen who hate the jackeens or, can't grasp urban life. Leaftlets with this dropped in letter boxes.

I'm serious. Going to Public Meetings and Saturday morning TD clinics is pointless.

Attack the head of the snake. Because the fangs are there.

But surely the head of the snake is the part that's getting all the media attention, Barrett and McCarthy. These are the guys that need to be tackled.

Khuitlio

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment but if anyone has the time to write up a template complaint re PrimeTime's false balance and 'Fake News' I'd be very happy to send in a copy.

On that note would there be any use in collectively writing a submission to the MetroLink consultation and submitting it en masse?

CarlosHarpic

ignorance is strength wrote: »

“Colm McCarthy was the dean of the so-called ‘Doheny and Nesbitt School of Economics’, where he delivered nightly lectures in the company of Sean Barrett, Moore McDowell, the late Paul Tansey and others.”

So basically a pair of establishment drink talkers are RTEs and the media's 'go to' for expert commentary.

How do we know either one of them are not the stereotypical academics on the sauce with their braincells ravaged by booze?

Also portray RTE as a nest of nepotism, paedophiles and cocaine junkies.

These types want to talk up ****, the give it to them. Destroy their fake status and moral and intellectual high ground. go right directly to the people on the ground. Use Facebook, Twiiter and YouTube. The mainstream is dead. What are up against really? Dancing with the Stars ffs.

Micheal Collins defeated the British Empire with 12 skangers.

Do it.

https://youtu.be/xPZ6eaL3S2E

jd

If the advice of those guys. Barrett and McCarthy, had been followed there would have been no Dart!

My thoughts were that perhaps the launch site of the southern pair of TBMs could be near Courtlands, with a station entrance on to Griffith Avenue




However. in the consultation document there is an option given of surfacing south of the airport, then traversing over the M50 on an elevated track, and then going underground again, with a station, at Northwood.

If they did this wouldn't the Southern pair of TBMs start here (they'd hardly have an additional pair starting at Na Fianna in this case)?

yannakis

I think there is a new development of 4-5 houses where the Northwood Station is shown - right besides the Topaz.

jd

yannakis wrote: »

I think there is a new development of 4-5 houses where the Northwood Station is shown - right besides the Topaz.

There are quite a few more houses there - Northwood Green, with some development following on. I think the point is they were considering lauching TBMs there - they could have a surface station north of Northwood Avenue before the portal. Tunnelling would take quite a bit longer, of course..

strassenwo!f

bk wrote: »

It will be able to interconnect with two rail lines at Whitworth Road, the Maynooth line and the Hazelhatch - PPT - Connolly/Docklands line.

Per the old alignment it would have only interconnected with one of the lines at Drumcondra. Whitworth Road interchange is key to making the DART Expansion (DU lite) plan work.

Yes, thanks for the answer, but you'd wonder if it wouln't be possible, or why it isn't, to do pretty much the same at Drumcondra? And if the currently proposed route is actually longer could you not save tunnelling costs by reverting to the earlier route?

I can see that the authorities would be reluctant to close off a large section of Drumcondra Road to facilitate such works, but it might be possible to compulsorily purchase one side of St. Patrick's Road (parallel to Drumcondra Road) and rejig that area to have a metro station with a connection at one end to the Maynooth line and a connection at the other to the PPT line. It would hardly be a massive operation for a few competent engineers to arrange.

There could be savings in tunnelling costs, and much of the detailed work for the original plan has been done, so there'd be no need to work out the fine details of the route for much of the northside section. You'd also end up with a more even layout for the northside DART/metro/LUAS catchment areas - under the current plans, with Whitworth Road, the Mater and the Cabra LUAS stop, the Phibsboro area is going to be totally overserved.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, thanks for the answer, but you'd wonder if it wouln't be possible, or why it isn't, to do pretty much the same at Drumcondra? And if the currently proposed route is actually longer could you not save tunnelling costs by reverting to the earlier route?

I can see that the authorities would be reluctant to close off a large section of Drumcondra Road to facilitate such works, but it might be possible to compulsorily purchase one side of St. Patrick's Road (parallel to Drumcondra Road) and rejig that area to have a metro station with a connection at one end to the Maynooth line and a connection at the other to the PPT line. It would hardly be a massive operation for a few competent engineers to arrange.

There could be savings in tunnelling costs, and much of the detailed work for the original plan has been done, so there'd be no need to work out the fine details of the route for much of the northside section. You'd also end up with a more even layout for the northside DART/metro/LUAS catchment areas - under the current plans, with Whitworth Road, the Mater and the Cabra LUAS stop, the Phibsboro area is going to be totally overserved.

The unsuitability of Drumcondra is literally addressed in the portion of the post that you quoted!

jd

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, thanks for the answer, but you'd wonder if it wouln't be possible, or why it isn't, to do pretty much the same at Drumcondra? And if the currently proposed route is actually longer could you not save tunnelling costs by reverting to the earlier route?

There is quite a bit of discussion re the two stations at
http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-1/metrolink-volume-1-main-report.pdf
from 341 on (Stage 2 MCA - Main-Criterion)

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

The unsuitability of Drumcondra is literally addressed in the portion of the post that you quoted!

I'm afraid I don't follow what you're saying.

Under the original plan the metro would have been underground at Drumcondra, and would have gone under the elevated Maynooth line and under the sunken PPT line. At the time the earlier metro was planned, it was going to have escalators and stuff to facilitate connection between the underground metro and the elevated Maynooth line.

That metro station was planned to be north of the elevated Maynooth line. There was, at the time, and very understandably, little point in having a connection with the PPT line, because it wasn't being used by passenger trains and there was no prospect that it would be.

There are now passenger trains on both rail lines going through Drumcondra. My question is, why not build the metro station perpendicular to both of these lines, and between both of them, perhaps under St. Patrick's Road (if Drumcondra Road itself is not not feasible) and perhaps save money on tunnelling costs?

Grandeeod

tom1ie wrote: »

But surely the head of the snake is the part that's getting all the media attention, Barrett and McCarthy. These are the guys that need to be tackled.

You're right. You tackle them all. Politicians, TII, NTA and those like McCarthy and Barrett. From my own experiences the actual politicians are the weakest opposition as they tend to hide behind the whims of so called respected economists and spokespersons from state bodies associated with transport.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't follow what you're saying.

Under the original plan the metro would have been underground at Drumcondra, and would have gone under the elevated Maynooth line and under the sunken PPT line. At the time the earlier metro was planned, it was going to have escalators and stuff to facilitate connection between the underground metro and the elevated Maynooth line.

That metro station was planned to be north of the elevated Maynooth line. There was, at the time, and very understandably, little point in having a connection with the PPT line, because it wasn't being used by passenger trains and there was no prospect that it would be.

There are now passenger trains on both rail lines going through Drumcondra. My question is, why not build the metro station perpendicular to both of these lines, and between both of them, perhaps under St. Patrick's Road (if Drumcondra Road itself is not not feasible) and perhaps save money on tunnelling costs?

There's no room at all at Drumcondra for a station on the PPT line.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, thanks for the answer, but you'd wonder if it wouln't be possible, or why it isn't, to do pretty much the same at Drumcondra? And if the currently proposed route is actually longer could you not save tunnelling costs by reverting to the earlier route?

They are saving costs by tunneling under roads, and by using simple station designs. Shorter would not be cheaper. Coupled with the Dart expansion, it is a good plan.

Unfortunately they will run into a few NIMBY GAA supporters.

tom1ie

Grandeeod wrote: »

You're right. You tackle them all. Politicians, TII, NTA and those like McCarthy and Barrett. From my own experiences the actual politicians are the weakest opposition as they tend to hide behind the whims of so called respected economists and spokespersons from state bodies associated with transport.

I'm not saying tackle them all. I'm merely saying get competent politicians (a contradiction I know!) who are in favour of metrolink and put up an argument on national TV/radio to the likes of barret.

Grandeeod

tom1ie wrote: »

I'm not saying tackle them all. I'm merely saying get competent politicians (a contradiction I know!) who are in favour of metrolink and put up an argument on national TV/radio to the likes of barret.

Once again from experience, there will never be a politician capable of that. I think you have mentioned the Green Party before. Maybe not. Could be someone else. They had so much potential in opposition, but in Government they fell flat on their faces. I have one particular memory regarding Ciaran Cuffe completely misunderstanding the entire concept of DU before they entered Government. Some of the stuff I witnessed couldn't be made up.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

There's no room at all at Drumcondra for a station on the PPT line.

You're quite right. There is no space.

However, on one side there is a canal, which could be closed for a period of time without causing any inconvenience to boat or other traffic, and on the other side there is a road which is not a major artery into the city and could perhaps be temporarily closed.

It shouldn't be a major engineering challenge to create a PPT station in that area with access to a metro stop positioned between the PPT and Maynooth lines.

In other words, it might be possible to make space in that area.