Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

tobsey

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You're quite right. There is no space.

However, on one side there is a canal, which could be closed for a period of time without causing any inconvenience to boat or other traffic, and on the other side there is a road which is not a major artery into the city and could perhaps be temporarily closed.

It shouldn't be a major engineering challenge to create a PPT station in that area with access to a metro stop positioned between the PPT and Maynooth lines.

In other words, it might be possible to make space in that area.

Do you know what the line is like at that point. It’s about 4m below whitworth road. How exactly do you propose to make a station at that point? You need a platform on both sides of the tracks and some form of entry and exit. How’s that going to work? Closing the canal and/or whitworth road for a period wouldn’t achieve anything. And whitworth road is absolutely a major route into the city centre. Anyone heading from finglas road or botanic toad to the south east of the city use it. It’s grid locked every morning and evening to prove it.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You're quite right. There is no space.

However, on one side there is a canal, which could be closed for a period of time without causing any inconvenience to boat or other traffic, and on the other side there is a road which is not a major artery into the city and could perhaps be temporarily closed.

It shouldn't be a major engineering challenge to create a PPT station in that area with access to a metro stop positioned between the PPT and Maynooth lines.

In other words, it might be possible to make space in that area.

No no no, you're basing this crazy idea on satellite photos obviously, and no actual knowledge of the layout of the area. A PPT line station there would have to permanently close the canal, not temporarily.

strassenwo!f

Sam Russell wrote: »

They are saving costs by tunneling under roads, and by using simple station designs. Shorter would not be cheaper. Coupled with the Dart expansion, it is a good plan.

Unfortunately they will run into a few NIMBY GAA supporters.

Broadly I have no issue with the route on the northside of the city, and you're probably right that it is a good plan.

I am working my working my way through the relevant pages suggested by the poster jd, above, and I am concerned that the section on pages 343-346 (overlap of station catchment, section 8.3.1.2) appears to only be concerned with possible overlap of the Whitworth Road station with the metro stations at Griffith Park and the Mater.

It appears to take no account of the LUAS green line which is just a few hundred metres away at the Cabra stop. Given that the most popular destination on any public transport service, in any city, is the city centre, it is disappointing that the LUAS catchment in that area does not seem to have been considered.

In effect, with the Whitworth Road station and the Cabra LUAS stop, there will be two very decent rail lines heading from Phibsboro into and out of the city centre, but a large gap between Whitworth Road and Connolly where there is a large catchment with no rapid and very regular connection with the key parts of the city.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Broadly I have no issue with the route on the northside of the city, and you're probably right that it is a good plan.

I am working my working my way through the relevant pages suggested by the poster jd, above, and I am concerned that the section on pages 343-346 (overlap of station catchment, section 8.3.1.2) appears to only be concerned with possible overlap of the Whitworth Road station with the metro stations at Griffith Park and the Mater.

It appears to take no account of the LUAS green line which is just a few hundred metres away at the Cabra stop. Given that the most popular destination on any public transport service, in any city, is the city centre, it is disappointing that the LUAS catchment in that area does not seem to have been considered.

In effect, with the Whitworth Road station and the Cabra LUAS stop, there will be two very decent rail lines heading from Phibsboro into and out of the city centre, but a large gap between Whitworth Road and Connolly where there is a large catchment with no rapid and very regular connection with the key parts of the city.

But we've talked about this several times before - the Luas and the Metro lines serve very different catchment areas before and after Whitworth. Interchanges are good to have. etc. etc.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

No no no, you're basing this crazy idea on satellite photos obviously, and no actual knowledge of the layout of the area. A PPT line station there would have to permanently close the canal, not temporarily.

Not at all, I know that area very well.

There are currently two very high walls, probably 8 metres high, either side of the line. You'd close the road and the canal, probably for around 6 months to a year, and you'd build a structure which would have platforms on both sides and a roof over those platforms.

On one side the path beside the canal, or even a bit of the canal itself, would flow. On the other side, traffic would flow over the roof along Whitworth Road.

It'd be a big like any underground station, where traffic or rivers continue doing their stuff overhead. The only difference would be that passengers would not be looking at a ceiling as they wait on the platforms, they'd be looking at the sky. It shouldn't be difficult.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Not at all, I know that area very well.

There are currently two very high walls, probably 8 metres high, either side of the line. You'd close the road and the canal, probably for around 6 months to a year, and you'd build a structure which would have platforms on both sides and a roof over those platforms.

On one side the path beside the canal, or even a bit of the canal itself, would flow. On the other side, traffic would flow over the roof along Whitworth Road.

It'd be a big like any underground station, where traffic or rivers continue doing their stuff overhead. The only difference would be that passengers would not be looking at a ceiling as they wait on the platforms, they'd be looking at the sky. It shouldn't be difficult.

That's all very nice, but where are you magicking the room for the platforms from? There's no room for platforms!

marno21

A positive article on Metrolink from the Fingal Independent with no mention of GAA clubs or swimming pools

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/clarity-on-route-and-timelines-hailed-by-council-chief-36744736.html

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

McCarthy and Barrett have past history of objection to all projects that are not road or cost a bit of investment. McCarthy refers Metrolink as a Luas line, despite the fact that it is not, and that it only serves one suburb but fails to name it. Is it Swords, or Ballymun, or Sandyford, or Dundrum, or Ranelagh, or Galsnevin, or even the airport. He could not have meant the airport because that only handles 30 million of passengers a year and only 50,000 workers that go there everyday.

Interesting as to how he used the argument of spending €700m to provide one line to the suburb of Bride's Glen. Which has nowhere near the population of Swords.

So much misinformation on it. Colm McCarthy firing out misinformed soundbites none of which were corrected. The fact that there were 5 anti Metro speakers (two economists, an ex Dublin footballer, an architect who hosts a television programme, a resident of Glasnevin who founded a GAA club) vs. two pro Metro speakers (the PR fella from Dublin Chamber and the head of the organisation that will operate the line). There was no representation from TII who will actually build the project. TII badly need a figurehead like Barry Kenny who will take up these media opportunities and explain why exactly this is being done for those who are misinformed. Sean O'Neill seems to be in this role but he is never invited on any platforms to discuss individual projects, it usually seems to be about road trivia or TII as a whole.

donvito99

Like many here I'm not impressed with the NTA's promotion of this project.

This is still an expensive airport link, or another line to the southside in the minds of too many people.

Engineering reports, alignment studies and drab PDFs with dinky symbols and statistics are not consumable and people will still be in the dark as to the enormous benefits of Metro unless it is spelt out to them.

What this project needs is vocal support from people who realise they will use it and benefit from it and that it is money well spent.

Take a look at the above. Auckland, a city comparable in population to Dublin proposing a LRT link between the airport and the city.

1. It sets out the existing problem.

2. It proposes a clear and understandable solution to Joe-frustrated-commuter.

3. It does this in less than four minutes. It can be watched and shared on Facebook while waiting with dozens of others on a packed Luas platform for a packed tram to arrive, for example.

In less than four minutes it should be possible in a 'glossy' video to;

- Identify the present public transport options in the North City, Airport and Swords. Highlight the very real grid lock in Dublin, showing buses bumper to bumper, held up by the recently opened Luas at College Green - a highly publicised and well known example of multiple unsegregated modes of transportation in conflict, right in the heart of the city centre.

- Identify the inadequate capacity of the Luas Green line. Emphasise packed trams arriving at packed platforms on an old heavy rail alignment. Show new units being built in Cherrywood...

- Identify the present public transport options on the DART and future proposed expansion to the Maynooth and Kildare lines particularly. Show how and where these lines intersect

And then, in a fly through type graphic;

- Demonstrate how the Metro naturally and inexpensively ties into the Green line, the DART at Tara Street, the other two DARTs at Whitworth Road, the Airport, Swords and allude to the ease with which an extension to the Northern Line at Donabate is made, like Luas extensions have in the past.

- Demonstrate how Metro will carry potentially three times as many passengers as the Luas does every morning and evening

- Demonstrate the myriad of possible connections this will allow for with integrated ticketing

- Demonstrate how Dublin bus routes and other modes can be rerouted to maximum effect to feed and complement each other.

And to conclude a video;

- Show that we've been here before. We balked at increasingly more expensive projects starting in the '70s and then in the '90s and '00s.

- Show that we've embraced solutions that are inferior and more expensive in the long run i.e. Luas crawling through College Green.

- Posit that we'll still be talking about this in another 20 years time if left unbuilt.

This kind of a video could be put together by a keen amateur and likely to a better standard than the original Transport21 graphics and material that has been dusted off recently.

Or, it could be crowd funded and I'd be happy to contribute.

Essentially I think we can do more than emailing TDs and vocalising frustrations at public meetings. We understand the benefits, as well as the usual shallow criticisms and we could sell this project where the NTA has seemingly refused to. Hypothetically had such a video existed last week, it would have been trotted out on the now infamous Primetime special and we would have curtailed to a large extent the misinformation that is slowly suffocating this project.

Equium

Nail. On. The. Head.

Such a video should have been the cornerstone of the announcement of the new alignment. Videos were created for previous iterations of Metro North and for DART Underground (links below) but I don't remember if they were ever shown during news broadcasts or used as informational advertisements elsewhere. In these times of constant information bombardment, it is strange to think that we aren't seeing Metrolink video adverts pop up every time we browse YouTube, Facebook, etc.

Also, for what it is worth, I'd certainly be willing to contribute to producing a video outlining the necessity for this project.

Metro North promo: https://youtu.be/SvjvAzs8f_Q

DART Underground promo: https://youtu.be/4KJyp7GPqJ8

Grandeeod

The lack of a video presentation for metrolink in an era of easy sharing on social media is nothing short of utter ineptitude. I've included the DU one too. Both came before the explosion of social media.

Metro North. (wont embed for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvjvAzs8f_Q&t=124s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KJyp7GPqJ8

ignorance is strength

Part of the reason for the paltry CBA and absence of compelling visual accompaniments was the uncertainty about the route to be taken, which is partly because of NIMBY culture. So, the materials that will be required to defeat NIMBYists haven't yet been prepared because of NIMBYists. It's a vicious circle.

I expect they'll be provided in time. But that may be too late.

Grandeeod

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Part of the reason for the paltry CBA and absence of compelling visual accompaniments was the uncertainty about the route to be taken, which is partly because of NIMBY culture. So, the materials that will be required to defeat NIMBYists haven't yet been prepared because of NIMBYists. It's a vicious circle.

I expect they'll be provided in time. But that may be too late.

Baloney. You don't need an exact route to produce a video that outlines the importance of a project and it's benefits if delivered. Perhaps the lack of audio visual promotional material is yet another part of the Governments cost cutting measures.:rolleyes:

ignorance is strength

Grandeeod wrote: »

Baloney. You don't need an exact route to produce a video that outlines the importance of a project and it's benefits if delivered. Perhaps the lack of audio visual promotional material is yet another part of the Governments cost cutting measures.:rolleyes:

Well, the NTA is devolved from the government, and they seem not to have scrimped on engineering fees, so I doubt cost-cutting came into play.

Anne Graham, the NTA's CEO, said the uncertainty was responsible for the brief CBA: they didn't yet know the full cost and couldn't precisely calculate the benefits without knowing the route. I'm not saying they couldn't have done a promotional video; just that it's likely they haven't applied themselves to public promotion until they know what the response to the proposed route will be.

marno21

Grandeeod wrote: »

Baloney. You don't need an exact route to produce a video that outlines the importance of a project and it's benefits if delivered. Perhaps the lack of audio visual promotional material is yet another part of the Governments cost cutting measures.:rolleyes:

The AV material you posted was published well into the Metro North and DART Underground planning processes, and was released at the planning submission stage. The NTA/TII will likely publish such a video when the final route is chosen and more operational parameters are decided upon.

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Well, the NTA is devolved from the government, and they seem not to have scrimped on engineering fees, so I doubt cost-cutting came into play.

Anne Graham, the NTA's CEO, said the uncertainty was responsible for the brief CBA: they didn't yet know the full cost and couldn't precisely calculate the benefits without knowing the route. I'm not saying they couldn't have done a promotional video; just that it's likely they haven't applied themselves to public promotion until they know what the response to the proposed route will be.

As you say, the NTA/TII are firmly clear that this is a preferred route and not the final one. The cost benefit analysis will be published when the final route and other elements of the scheme are decided, and will be published when the business case for the project is sent to DPER for approval.

The main objection to this project (besides the usual McCarthy/Barrett stuff) is the issue of Na Fianna's pitches being occupied. That issue will be resolved before the publication of the final route and the submission for planning approval. I'd imagine most Na Fianna members would be pro-Metro aside from the pitches issue, it'll vastly increase the value of their homes and increase accessibility substantially. Dermot Bannon has alluded to this in his interviews, he's pro-Metro but anti-Na Fianna pitches being torn up.

ignorance is strength

marno21 wrote: »

I'd imagine most Na Fianna members would be pro-Metro aside from the pitches issue, it'll vastly increase the value of their homes and increase accessibility substantially. Dermot Bannon has alluded to this in his interviews, he's pro-Metro but anti-Na Fianna pitches being torn up.

Don't ask me how I came across it, but this is quote from an opinion piece in the Sun: "Like many people, I rejoiced at the news of the MetroLink. Well, for a couple of hours anyway. Because fairly quickly it emerged they had screwed over my local GAA club, Na Fianna."


The worry I have, though, is that by the time Na Fianna fears have been allayed by financial inducements, the wider public will be opposed to the metro.

ignorance is strength

Another unfavourable article in the Irish Times -- Transport authority board did not review Government Metro announcement -- by Cliff Taylor, who's now written three articles on the metro and who describes himself as "metrosceptical". The headline strongly implies there was something amiss in the NTA's board not signing off on the Government's announcement, before going on to explain how it's actually a non-story and padding out the rest with previously-known information.

Grandeeod

marno21 wrote: »

The AV material you posted was published well into the Metro North and DART Underground planning processes, and was released at the planning submission stage. The NTA/TII will likely publish such a video when the final route is chosen and more operational parameters are decided upon.

So the promotional videos I (and loads of others) saw at the launch of Transport 21 in Dublin Castle in November 2005 were a mirage? The two links I posted were later versions, but contained footage from the original promos. Don't defend ineptitude Marno. When you launch something like Metrolink, you produce promotional material at the highest level. TII/NTA didn't. Full stop. I'll bring you further back in time to the original luas plans. I was involved in the production of the promo videos as I was only starting out in the industry. Based on an idea, a promotional video was made to show what luas would look like and its benefits. No internet/social media back then, so the video was shown in shopping centres at info stands circa 1995. If you are going to question me on this, know your facts.

marno21

Grandeeod wrote: »

So the promotional videos I (and loads of others) saw at the launch of Transport 21 in Dublin Castle in November 2005 were a mirage? The two links I posted were later versions, but contained footage from the original promos. Don't defend ineptitude Marno. When you launch something like Metrolink, you produce promotional material at the highest level. TII/NTA didn't. Full stop. I'll bring you further back in time to the original luas plans. I was involved in the production of the promo videos as I was only starting out in the industry. Based on an idea, a promotional video was made to show what luas would look like and its benefits. No internet/social media back then, so the video was shown in shopping centres at info stands circa 1995. If you are going to question me on this, know your facts.

I didn't realise you had such involvement, I was going by the videos above. I stand corrected, apologies.

ignorance is strength

Was this your handywork?!

Grandeeod

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Was this your handywork?!

Not my handywork. The promo (which we saw a snippet of in that clip) was produced by O'Herlihy Communications. I was merely involved in the live action parts of it as a latter day intern. But it was brought on a roadshow around Dublin,

Stephen15

People want the Metro to be actually built not stupid mock up videos of unrealistic fantasy which the government won't build. Stop the rebranding, stop the fancy mock up videos, stop the fancy brochures, stop the pen pushing and just build the god damn Metro for once and for all. Save the videos and wooden structures for when the thing is actually under construction.

murphaph

Stephen15 wrote: »

People want the Metro to be actually built not stupid mock up videos of unrealistic fantasy which the government won't build. Stop the rebranding, stop the fancy mock up videos, stop the fancy brochures, stop the pen pushing and just build the god damn Metro for once and for all. Save the videos and wooden structures for when the thing is actually under construction.

Sorry this is naïve. Na Fianna have already mobilised to block metro if it affects them. Other affected parties will too. We've seen this before. If the various state agencies and government departments were genuinely serious about metro, they would have launched a media campaign to counter these groups.

The Irish public are a soft touch for a sob story. Tell the story of tens of thousands of hours parents spend in traffic rather than at home with their young children. That's a bigger tragedy than a few sodding pitches being unavailable for 6 years.

medoc

Wouldn’t be popular and I don’t know if it would be possible, but maybe CPO the needed pitches. Pay Na Fianna the full value then build the metro. Return the ground to normal after completion and then put it on the market. An Fianna or anyone could buy it then.

fionnsci

medoc wrote: »

Wouldn’t be popular and I don’t know if it would be possible, but maybe CPO the needed pitches. Pay Na Fianna the full value then build the metro. Return the ground to normal after completion and then put it on the market. An Fianna or anyone could buy it then.

That'd certainly be more unpopular and no more convenient an option than what they're doing currently.

CatInABox

fionnsci wrote: »

That'd certainly be more unpopular and no more convenient an option than what they're doing currently.

Yeah, that would pretty much guarantee protest marches through the city, long court cases, appeal after appeal to every body that will hear one.

No, if this is going to get built, it'll get built with the support of those along the line, even if it's very reluctant.

Sam Russell

Looking at the route and distance, it should be possible to do the tunnel in one year of actual tunnelling, with another year to tidy up, so the three year minimum quote for Na Fianna disturbance should be possible. If that was guaranteed, it would not be too bad for them, particularly if they were provided with alternative pitches.

A strong public relations in favour the project is required. To scupper the project before it even gets an actual route is ridiculous.

ignorance is strength

A stop needs to be put to the victimhood narrative that Na Fianna was allowed to peddle on Prime Time - “we risk losing a generation of players,” etc. Those who will be evicted from the apartment block and the <40 houses have much more right to feel aggrieved. Looking at Na Fianna’s training timetable and fixtures list, all underage training happens on their two artificial pitches, which have a combined area less than their main pitch. 13 of 21 match fixtures next weekend are away from Mobhi Road, and five of the eight home matches are on the pitch they will retain during the works. Use of all weather pitches in the vicinity should be easy to arrange, and if not pitches can be built. I accept that the club’s community atmosphere will be disrupted, and they should be compensated for that. But it shouldn’t allow them to exaggerate their plight.

Apparently Paschcal Donohoe is a member. I wonder if that will play a part. He seems principled, so I hope not.

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at the route and distance, it should be possible to do the tunnel in one year of actual tunnelling, with another year to tidy up, so the three year minimum quote for Na Fianna disturbance should be possible. If that was guaranteed, it would not be too bad for them, particularly if they were provided with alternative pitches.

A strong public relations in favour the project is required. To scupper the project before it even gets an actual route is ridiculous.

The material that is excavated by a TBM is it brought to the surface at short distance intervals or what does it work

D.L.R.

Just bypass the Fianna club and don't build a station there. Win win.