Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

cgcsb

pigtown wrote: »

The tie in works don't have to cause any disruption at all, watch this video
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=50d_1416442061

Jacking down the track with dozens of workers on top of it? In Ireland the health and safety office responsible would be executed at dawn at a ceremony on front of the GPO as an example. Japanese attitudes to health and safety are lax to say the least, people who injure themselves are regarded as being stupid and having brought shame and embarrassment on themselves and their families.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

Jacking down the track with dozens of workers on top of it? In Ireland the health and safety office responsible would be executed at dawn at a ceremony on front of the GPO as an example. Japanese attitudes to health and safety are lax to say the least, people who injure themselves are regarded as being stupid and having brought shame and embarrassment on themselves and their families.

I think that might be an Asian thing generally.

ignorance is strength

bk wrote: »

Please stop the disinformation!! Here are some facts:

- Their club house won't be effected by this.
- The second pitch they use, at Scoil Cathriona, not 5 meters behind their club house won't be effected by this.
- The half a dozen other playing pitches in the area, that they already use in the area won't be effected by this. The pitches they use at St Pats in DCU, Albert College Park, Griffith Park, St Vincents, Rosmini, etc.

They won't have to move out of their catchment area for a generation, complete and utter nonsense!

The fact that you mention that the area is already thick with GAA clubs and pretty incredible number of playing pitches, shows that the whole thing really is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I can’t find a comprehensive listing of the usage of the various off-site pitches get. But one thing’s for certain: the club is already very dispersed (add Collinstown to your list, where there are two full pitches and a training pitch), which dispels the claim that forcing them to temporarily use pitches away from Mobhi Road would threaten the club’s very existence!

Does no one else find it bizarre how such simple research into Na Fianna’s claims hasn’t been done by news media, who have also taken little interest in the metro generally? Political analysis tends to be decent, but when it comes to policy coverage - education, health, transparent, etc - it is generally so primitive.

CreativeSen

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Does no one else find it bizarre how such simple research into Na Fianna’s claims hasn’t been done by news media, who have also taken little interest in the metro generally? Political analysis tends to be decent, but when it comes to policy coverage - education, health, transparent, etc - it is generally so primitive.

Why would you let facts get in the way of a good story?

All of this is hot air, Na Fianna know they are going to make money out of it and get free stands club houses as compo. Local Councillors get free air time and something that they can talk about for upcoming local elections and claim victories when Na Fianna get their new club houses and stands and all weather pitches as compo. Local angry people get to be angry!

Ultimately everyone will get what they want, including those of us that want the Metro. Everybody wins. Just wish we could fast forward through all the motions of it

bk

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I can’t find a comprehensive listing of the usage of the various off-site pitches get. But one thing’s for certain: the club is already very dispersed (add Collinstown to your list, where there are two full pitches and a training pitch), which dispels the claim that forcing them to temporarily use pitches away from Mobhi Road would threaten the club’s very existence!

Yes the site on Collinstown Lane is 12 acres and I think they own it. It has three playing pitches!!!

Somehow I think they will survive this just fine!

Dyr

bk wrote: »

They won't have to move out of their catchment area for a generation, complete and utter nonsense!
.

Did I say a generation or a playing generation?

You're going to need to wind your neck in a bit or take that mod hat off for a while

Sam Russell

Bambi wrote: »

Did I say a generation or a playing generation?

You're going to need to wind your neck in a bit or take that mod hat off for a while

Mod: @Bambi : Please do not attack posters.

bk

Bambi wrote: »

Did I say a generation or a playing generation?

And how will they lose even a playing generation, between their 12 acre, 3 pitch site in Collinstown, the pitch behind the Club and half a dozen other pitches they use?

bk

Don't get me wrong, the club should of course look for compensation and assistance during the works. I'd fully support that.

I just don't like the hyperbole and misinformation being spread about the club, it's facilities and future.

They will be effected, but given all the facilities they have available to them, it will be far from the end of the world.

murphaph

Bambi wrote: »

Did I say a generation or a playing generation?

You're going to need to wind your neck in a bit or take that mod hat off for a while

Have you some connection to Na Fianna that should be declared? You don't come across as an impartial observer.

jd

plodder wrote: »

I wonder why that's the case. If it's side by side, why not leave gaps in the wall, or if stacked, then put stairs at one end of the platform?

I think the tunnel options that have a shared concourse underground would be best though.

I asked - if it is single bore it will be 9.5m. He did mention that larger 12 meter bore lends itself to interesting stacking options etc.

monument

bk wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, the club should of course look for compensation and assistance during the works. I'd fully support that.

I just don't like the hyperbole and misinformation being spread about the club, it's facilities and future.

They will be effected, but given all the facilities they have available to them, it will be far from the end of the world.

Sure, there’s a huge amount of hyperbole and misinformation, but (unless I missed the answer, which is possible) the question still stands:

Why doesn’t the NTA/TII use Albert College Park?

Albert College Park seems to have the advantages of being less distributive, already having permission once before, and being located beside larger roads.

ricimaki

monument wrote: »

Sure, there’s a huge amount of hyperbole and misinformation, but (unless I missed the answer, which is possible) the question still stands:

Why doesn’t the NTA/TII use Albert College Park?

Albert College Park seems to have the advantages of being less distributive, already having permission once before, and being located beside larger roads.

Putting the tunnel portal at the location of a future station makes a lot of sense, as the station box will have already been dug out.

A station is to be built at Na Fianna, but not at Albert College Park. To place a station there would mean removing the Griffith Park and Collins Avenue Stops, as they'd be too close to make any sense. It's 2km from Glasnevin stop to Albert College Park. That's a fairly long distance with no stops in between

Chivito550

Bambi wrote: »

Na Fianna would be mad to move out of their catchment area for the life cycle of a entire generation of players. It's not just an inconvenience, its a killer for them. the people who whinge and bitch (and I've never heard an athletics guy not bitch about the GAA ) about this don't understand the basics of how GAA clubs work, their membership isn't drawn from passing trade via public transport. Na Fianna have clubs on every side of them (bar the city centre) so any move outside their catchment is going to screw them. There's a reason Kickhams have been trying to get away from the airport and into Ballymun for years.

What you're going to see is the staging area being moved back to Alberts College rather than the NTA saving themselves a few bob to blow on consultants.

Nice sly little dig at athletics people there!

No I’m not whinging about the GAA. I’m whinging about a club who are throwing their toys out of the pram over something which will benefit them hugely. If it was another sport I’d say the same.

I’m quite excited by the idea of being able to get a metro from Balally to within a 10-15 minute walk of Morton Stadium for athletics meets I must say. Saves that awful 16 bus grind. I can imagine there are GAA people who think likewise about getting to Na Fianna.

yabadabado

Bambi wrote: »

Na Fianna would be mad to move out of their catchment area for the life cycle of a entire generation of players. It's not just an inconvenience, its a killer for them. the people who whinge and bitch (and I've never heard an athletics guy not bitch about the GAA ) about this don't understand the basics of how GAA clubs work, their membership isn't drawn from passing trade via public transport. Na Fianna have clubs on every side of them (bar the city centre) so any move outside their catchment is going to screw them. There's a reason Kickhams have been trying to get away from the airport and into Ballymun for years.

What you're going to see is the staging area being moved back to Alberts College rather than the NTA saving themselves a few bob to blow on consultants.

That post is utter bull****.

bk

monument wrote: »

Why doesn’t the NTA/TII use Albert College Park?

I can think of a couple of reasons:

- Would actually receive more local opposition. Taking out a public park that is open to the whole community, versus a private club, which access is restricted to just members.

- Would disrupt three different sporting clubs who use the fields in that park, rather then just one. Note that the other two clubs don't have the same resources and large facilities that Na Fianna have, so would be more effected.

- You would still need to put a station at Na Fianna, it is equi-distant between Collins Avenue/DCU stop and Whitworth Road. If you didn't put a stop there, it would leave too much of a gap between the two. So either way they would be effected.

- Albert College Park is close to the Collins Avenue/DCU stop, so you are talking about just putting the portal there, that would end up costing more then putting a portal and a station at the same place.

ignorance is strength

From a week or so ago: Off the Ball | Newstalk — “Na Fianna face losing 75% of their facilities for up to a decade.”

CreativeSen wrote: »

Why would you let facts get in the way of a good story?

All of this is hot air, Na Fianna know they are going to make money out of it and get free stands club houses as compo. Local Councillors get free air time and something that they can talk about for upcoming local elections and claim victories when Na Fianna get their new club houses and stands and all weather pitches as compo. Local angry people get to be angry!

Ultimately everyone will get what they want, including those of us that want the Metro. Everybody wins. Just wish we could fast forward through all the motions of it

I think it’s far from as calculated as you say. Na Fianna are not rationally applying game theory to the situation and taking the strategic position. Instead I think it’s a symptom of our unsophisticated culture, i.e. the opposite of how you characterise it; it’s a failure by our media to convey the benfits of the project and of some of our citizens to see the big picture. And it matters, because a response such as this genuinely endangers the future of the project and discourages future projects. (Your paradaigm can’t be applied to the College Green plaza, which has been in the works for years.) The more resistance there is expected, the less likely it is that a government will take the risk of a bold infrastructure project.

Bambi wrote: »

Did I say a generation or a playing generation?

Playing-generation trivialises the concept of generation. You are disingenuously applying a term that’s normally applied to a time frame of decades to a period of only four or five years by specifying a narrow meaning of generation. “A generation of U8s, provided they give up GAA by their early teens, will never play on Mobhi Road astroturf pitches.”

Dyr

murphaph wrote: »

Have you some connection to Na Fianna that should be declared? You don't come across as an impartial observer.

Does other parties in here come across as impartial?

The only connection I have to Na Fianna is I have friends who have kids playing for them. I played for a another GAA club that lacked any home pitches and it stifled the club until we got one. We never cared much for Na Fianna either:D

I would note though, implying that someone has a connection to a vested interest leads to a ban in here. I reckon you're safe enough though.

What really motivates me is the pain in my face I have developed every time a real world group has the temerity to question a pet project of the amateur planners in here the level of group harumphing and maligning regardless of the circumstances. I'm confident that the location will be moved to Alberts Park and there will be posters that are outraged and perplexed in equal measure as to why that will happen:D

There used to be feedback forum for calling this class of messing out but in its absence I'll just point to the recent posts in this thread that went unmoderated as evidence of the carry on of the mod and leave yiz to it

Sam Russell

Bambi wrote: »

There used to be feedback forum for calling this class of messing out but in its absence I'll just point to the recent posts in this thread that went unmoderated as evidence of the carry on of the mod and leave yiz to it

Mod: If you have a problem with a post, you should report it, or send a PM to the mod of your choice.

CatInABox

Chivito550 wrote: »

No I’m not whinging about the GAA. I’m whinging about a club who are throwing their toys out of the pram over something which will benefit them hugely. If it was another sport I’d say the same.

In fairness to Na Fianna, they don't seem to be throwing their toys out of the pram, they seem to be running a tight, realistic ship in terms of a campaign. There's been a fair amount of commentary surrounding it, but the club have tried to clamp down on it.

I'd guess that they're extremely disappointed by the plan, but nothing they've said officially rules out cooperation with the project, and they do seem to be working with the NTA, so what more can anyone really expect of them?

jd

As I am from the area, I asked the engineer about the alternate option shown in the brochure of surfacing at Dardistown, going over the M50, and then tunnelling at Northwood.
He said if that happened the TBM starting at Northwood would go all the way to Charlemont. Also something about doing this would have the northern part of the line between Dardistown and Estuary open earlier for testing the metro trams etc

citizen6

Maybe we need a metric to quantify disruption to sports clubs. Lost Player Pitch Years and Revenue?

((total adult players + 2 x total underage players)/total pitches)
x
grass pitches unavailable years
x
2 x astro pitches unavailable years
/
(full time replacement pitches/distance from clubhouse)
+
(estimated loss of revenue/1000)

I haven't applied a weighting for clubhouse adjacency of lost pitches. Also I should get out more.

strassenwo!f

I spent a considerable amount of time in Munich in the late 1980's and early 90's, when the city was busy extending its S-Bahn and U-Bahn network. The basis for this - the cross-city underground S-Bahn line and a connecting U-Bahn line had been constructed for the Olympics in 1974, and the process of developing the city's was continuing when I was there.

Everywhere in the city there was a feeling that this new system would eventually come to them, as it developed. And, indeed, it did come to them, in pretty much every part of that city. (So much so that the equivalent of Dublin's metrowest ideas are now being built there, to enable transport around the city.

It was symbolic, I am pretty sure, that the next stage, after the Olympics, was not an extension of the existing lines, but rather development of another route to other parts of 'our city', to make people's lives better.

And now Munich has one of the finest public transport systems in Europe, if not in the entire World.

In Dublin, the message going out loud and clear is that we want to upgrade a line which is already fine. We're not going to look to closely at solutions to sort out any problems there might be on the Green Luas line.

When I read stuff on this board, about lines to other, new, areas of the city possibly having a metro line in or around 2057, it frankly appals me.

Anybody starting out in such areas of Dublin will go through their entire working lives without decent public rail transport, while their compadres in Munich will have had an easy journey into work every day,

The mind boggles.

marno21

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I spent a considerable amount of time in Munich in the late 1980's and early 90's, when the city was busy extending its S-Bahn and U-Bahn network. The basis for this - the cross-city underground S-Bahn line and a connecting U-Bahn line had been constructed for the Olympics in 1974, and the process of developing the city's was continuing when I was there.

Everywhere in the city there was a feeling that this new system would eventually come to them, as it developed. And, indeed, it did come to them, in pretty much every part of that city. (So much so that the equivalent of Dublin's metrowest ideas are now being built there, to enable transport around the city.

It was symbolic, I am pretty sure, that the next stage, after the Olympics, was not an extension of the existing lines, but rather development of another route to other parts of 'our city', to make people's lives better.

And now Munich has one of the finest public transport systems in Europe, if not in the entire World.

In Dublin, the message going out loud and clear is that we want to upgrade a line which is already fine. We're not going to look to closely at solutions to sort out any problems there might be on the Green Luas line.

When I read stuff on this board, about lines to other, new, areas of the city possibly having a metro line in or around 2057, it frankly appals me.

Anybody starting out in such areas of Dublin will go through their entire working lives without decent public rail transport, while their compadres in Munich will have had an easy journey into work every day,

The mind boggles.

No. The Metrolink will be designed to be functional in 2057. In sharp contrast with recent projects in Ireland which become obsolete less than a decade after opening

The Metrolink project will be designed to provide a public transport spine between Swords, Dublin Airport, Dublin City centre and Sandyford. Whilst minor alignment changes and station locations may change, the route will 100% encompass the above 4 locations

As a result, talk of other Metro lines or rerouting it elsewhere is off topic for this thread and future posts will be deleted

I've explained umpteen times why the Green Line is being included and so have others, im not explaining it again

citizen6

jd wrote: »

As I am from the area, I asked the engineer about the alternate option shown in the brochure of surfacing at Dardistown, going over the M50, and then tunnelling at Northwood.
He said if that happened the TBM starting at Northwood would go all the way to Charlemont. Also something about doing this would have the northern part of the line between Dardistown and Estuary open earlier for testing the metro trams etc

In that case, would it make sense to start taking passengers between Estuary and the airport as soon as possible, before the rest of the line is ready?

Middle Man

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I spent a considerable amount of time in Munich in the late 1980's and early 90's, when the city was busy extending its S-Bahn and U-Bahn network. The basis for this - the cross-city underground S-Bahn line and a connecting U-Bahn line had been constructed for the Olympics in 1974, and the process of developing the city's was continuing when I was there.

Everywhere in the city there was a feeling that this new system would eventually come to them, as it developed. And, indeed, it did come to them, in pretty much every part of that city. (So much so that the equivalent of Dublin's metrowest ideas are now being built there, to enable transport around the city.

It was symbolic, I am pretty sure, that the next stage, after the Olympics, was not an extension of the existing lines, but rather development of another route to other parts of 'our city', to make people's lives better.

And now Munich has one of the finest public transport systems in Europe, if not in the entire World.

In Dublin, the message going out loud and clear is that we want to upgrade a line which is already fine. We're not going to look to closely at solutions to sort out any problems there might be on the Green Luas line.

When I read stuff on this board, about lines to other, new, areas of the city possibly having a metro line in or around 2057, it frankly appals me.

Anybody starting out in such areas of Dublin will go through their entire working lives without decent public rail transport, while their compadres in Munich will have had an easy journey into work every day,

The mind boggles.

Ireland needs to start taking infrastructure seriously or it will simply be bypassed by the outside world. Our public transport, utilities and broadband need major investment and it's needed urgently - we're not even done with the motorways yet (M4, M20 etc.). Dublin Airport was a perfect miniature example of this back in 1986 - either it was a new runway (10/28) or airlines would start pulling out as the then main runway was no longer fit for purpose - well we know what actually happened and such is a lesson on the value of proper infrastructure. The 'Little Roads of Ireland' thing is something that no longer flies - this is 2018.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In Dublin, the message going out loud and clear is that we want to upgrade a line which is already fine. We're not going to look to closely at solutions to sort out any problems there might be on the Green Luas line.

The line isn't fine it's at wedge capacity. It was like most city based infrastructure (M50 , Luas, Dunkettle etc) in Ireland cut to ribbons to make it more palatable to a certain demographic. Basically what ML will deliver is the initial Luas proposal 40 years late. The green line upgrade is for nothing , it would be madness not to do it .

Since you've proposed other solution care to name some?

plodder

Apart from anything else, the kind of land use intensification that is promised by ML, and some economists are sceptical about, has already happened around the Luas Green Line, and that's one good reason why it makes sense to upgrade that line as part of this project. Dublin has always had crap public transport, but a lot of people living in that corridor moved there on the promise of a good service.

By the way there's a cautious but somewhat positive piece in today's Irish Times by economist John Fitzgerald. The main difference between him and the likes of Barrett and McCarthy is just a positive attitude towards public transport it seems to me.

John FitzGerald: As a child I dreamt of a Dublin metro. But is it feasible?
" Cost benefits of proposed Metrolink look impressive on paper but caveats apply"

Bray Head

It's always struck me how little densification or new development there has been on the DART line since 1984.

Exceptions are offices at East Point and GCD and Clongriffin for residential.There's still a lot of green space within walking distance of Northern line stations. Inevitably uproar whenever any of it gets developed - like with the recent plans regarding St Paul's land in Raheny.


I hope a more aggressive planning approach is taken along the new Metrolink line.

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

It's always struck me how little densification or new development there has been on the DART line since 1984.

Exceptions are offices at East Point and GCD and Clongriffin for residential.There's still a lot of green space within walking distance of Northern line stations. Inevitably uproar whenever any of it gets developed - like with the recent plans regarding St Paul's land in Raheny.


I hope a more aggressive planning approach is taken along the new Metrolink line.

I think that one got all the publicity because of the Brent Geese, which on its own would be a terrible reason for refusing the project. But, I think the land didn't have the right zoning. That should be fixed and it built on asap.

Actually, it did get permission in the end. If I recall right, it was Dublin City Council that raised the objection about the geese (and the institutional zoning), but An Bord Pleanala obviously didn't see a problem with that. Excellent news!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/green-light-for-500-homes-in-north-dublin-despite-more-than-1000-local-objections-36780814.html