Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

bk

CatInABox wrote: »

In fairness to Na Fianna, they don't seem to be throwing their toys out of the pram, they seem to be running a tight, realistic ship in terms of a campaign. There's been a fair amount of commentary surrounding it, but the club have tried to clamp down on it.

I'd guess that they're extremely disappointed by the plan, but nothing they've said officially rules out cooperation with the project, and they do seem to be working with the NTA, so what more can anyone really expect of them?

I suspect they are seeing €€€€€ in their eyes. They want to rile up enough public opposition that they can increase the payout, but not enough opposition that TII says feck it and goes elsewhere and they get nothing. Or even backlash themselves when the club management agrees to take the pay out.

Having looked at the details of the clubs playing grounds and fixtures, I'm convinced this will only be a relatively minor inconvenience to them and certainly doesn't threaten the clubs future.

CatInABox

bk wrote: »

I suspect they are seeing €€€€€ in their eyes. They want to rile up enough public opposition that they can increase the payout, but not enough opposition that TII says feck it and goes elsewhere and they get nothing. Or even backlash themselves when the club management agrees to take the pay out.

Having looked at the details of the clubs playing grounds and fixtures, I'm convinced this will only be a relatively minor inconvenience to them and certainly doesn't threaten the clubs future.

Yeah, I'd agree with all that. I tried to think of all the pros and cons of the MetroLink using the Na Fianna grounds for the club, and it's almost all pros. They've got a massive opportunity here, if they're willing to take the sacrifice of losing their pitches temporarily.

CONS:
The loss of three primary pitches, right beside the clubhouse
Clubhouse will be affected by having a large hole in the ground right out the front windows
Increased construction traffic on the surrounding roads

PROS:
A metro station on their doorstep
The metro station could be called "Na Fianna"
Injection of cash/new facilities

The cons can all be mitigated as well, with help. They'll need priority on nearby pitches, extra buses provided, their clubhouse view needs to be taken into consideration (Either with an "Artwall" built so that there's something to look at, or a plexiglass wall so that you can see in the construction zone, I'd prefer the second personally). Not much you can do about the traffic though.

I wonder exactly how much power Na Fianna actually have before they they're told to get stuffed. Could someone convince Na Fianna to demand driverless HFV? Just for the craic?

MJohnston

^ it's also worth noting that most of those cons are temporary, while most of the pros are permanent.

Sam Russell

I would have thought that having the station named 'Na Fianna' would be a trump card - no other GAA club would have that privilege. Let us hope it persuades them to let it go ahead as planned.

ignorance is strength

For what it's worth, I'd rather the station isn't called Na Fianna. We have a tendency in this country to obscure the location of things that we name: fourteen of the twenty bridges between East Link and Islandbridge are named for people, most recently Rosie Hackett. I'd prefer that the same doesn't happen with Metrolink.

plodder wrote: »

John FitzGerald: As a child I dreamt of a Dublin metro. But is it feasible?
" Cost benefits of proposed Metrolink look impressive on paper but caveats apply"

John Fitzgerald is surely among the most qualified to comment on big state investments such as this - academic, technocratic, versatile, etc. But this article is amazingly trivial. He basically says these three things:

1) In previous years the design process was opaque, but that's not the case with Metrolink.

2) We should consider that infrastructure projects normally overspend.

3) The CBA doesn't consider the costs of the temporary closure of the Luas, but equally it doesn't include development potential (which planners should facilitate) or the environmental benefits.

And...that's it. This is one of Ireland's most prominent economists, writing in the newspaper of record, yet the extent of his critique is what I describe above. The more informed posters on this forum have considerably more of interest to say.

Zebra3

Under absolutely no circumstances should a metro station be called “Na Fianna” or after any other club or organisation.

We’ve had train stations named Howth Junction and Phoenix Park which were of no use to people in understanding their location. Let’s not start repeating these mistakes again.

Sam Russell

Zebra3 wrote: »

Under absolutely no circumstances should a metro station be called “Na Fianna” or after any other club or organisation.

We’ve had train stations named Howth Junction and Phoenix Park which were of no use to people in understanding their location. Let’s not start repeating these mistakes again.

Heuston Station, Connolly Station, Pearse Station, etc. etc. etc.

Why not - it is not as if Griffith Park or Collins Avenue is less named after individuals.

It might get Na Fianna onside.

bk

I think the biggest lose to Na Fianna would be there two all weather pitches, which they seem to use quite a bit for training.

Grass pitches seem to be fine, they seem to have access to almost a dozen pitches, so I honestly don't think those are much of an issue.

The two all weather pitches are more unique. But they are small, so I can see two options for them with these:

1) Build two all weather pitches on the Scoil Cathriona grounds. The pitches are small and their looks to be plenty of space for them there. It would be directly behind the club house so that would be a bonus.

Scoil Cathriona would benefit from getting two new all weather pitches for the school and when the Na Fianna All Weather pitches are put back, they would benefit from now having access to 4 all weather pitches, sounds like it would be win win all round.

2) Build two all weather pitches at their 12 acre Collinstown facility. Could even possibly build a second club house/indoor courts facility there.

Then when the two all weather pitches are rebuilt at Mobhi Road, they now have 4 all weather pitches.

I could see either of the above options working out quiet nicely for the club.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heuston Station, Connolly Station, Pearse Station, etc. etc. etc.

Why not - it is not as if Griffith Park or Collins Avenue is less named after individuals.

It might get Na Fianna onside.

I'd prefer if it was called L1-10. Line 1, station 10.
But I don't think it really matters if we end up calling it na fianna just to placate some small minded people having a **** fit.

Zebra3

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heuston Station, Connolly Station, Pearse Station, etc. etc. etc.

Why not - it is not as if Griffith Park or Collins Avenue is less named after individuals.

It might get Na Fianna onside.

The project should be going ahead regardless of any sports club being “onside”. If people are gonna lose their homes over this project, I fail to see why anyone should be falling over themselves to appease a sports club.

Incredible. Quite incredible.

salmocab

bk wrote: »

I think the biggest lose to Na Fianna would be there two all weather pitches, which they seem to use quite a bit for training.

Grass pitches seem to be fine, they seem to have access to almost a dozen pitches, so I honestly don't think those are much of an issue.

The two all weather pitches are more unique. But they are small, so I can see two options for them with these:

1) Build two all weather pitches on the Scoil Cathriona grounds. The pitches are small and their looks to be plenty of space for them there. It would be directly behind the club house so that would be a bonus.

Scoil Cathriona would benefit from getting two new all weather pitches for the school and when the Na Fianna All Weather pitches are put back, they would benefit from now having access to 4 all weather pitches, sounds like it would be win win all round.

2) Build two all weather pitches at their 12 acre Collinstown facility. Could even possibly build a second club house/indoor courts facility there.

Then when the two all weather pitches are rebuilt at Mobhi Road, they now have 4 all weather pitches.

I could see either of the above options working out quiet nicely for the club.

I’ve thought from the start that Na Fianna will probably angle to get as much from this in both the short and long term, your suggestions sound perfectly reasonable to me and along with a few other sweeteners I’m sure it’s the sort of thing they will get (and want). They will lose bar revenue and are fully entitled to get compensation for that too

plodder

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heuston Station, Connolly Station, Pearse Station, etc. etc. etc.

Why not - it is not as if Griffith Park or Collins Avenue is less named after individuals.

It might get Na Fianna onside.

It's totally daft. It might have been a quaint idea in the past, but railway stations shouldn't be named after people either. There's been discussions here before about this, with people reporting puzzled tourists wondering where Heuston is (sounds like a city in Texas) when they just want to get to Dublin.

ignorance is strength

Sam Russell wrote: »

Heuston Station, Connolly Station, Pearse Station, etc. etc. etc.

All renamed by Iarnrod Eireann in 1966 to commemorate the Rising. My grandmother, along with many others I'm sure, continued to call them Kingsbridge, Amiens Street, Westland Row until her death recently.

CatInABox

Zebra3 wrote: »

The project should be going ahead regardless of any sports club being “onside”. If people are gonna lose their homes over this project, I fail to see why anyone should be falling over themselves to appease a sports club.

Incredible. Quite incredible.

In an ideal world, yeah, we'd power on with major infrastructure projects that will benefit far more people than they'd inconvenience, but we don't live in that world. Politics and perception matter. Take a look at the papers recently, and you'll see a growing backlash against Metrolink. A person losing their house to a CPO doesn't have much power to generate headlines, but a community organisation that includes amongst its members the current minister for finance? They could be a major spanner in the works if you don't get them onside.

Sam Russell

plodder wrote: »

It's totally daft. It might have been a quaint idea in the past, but railway stations shouldn't be named after people either. There's been discussions here before about this, with people reporting puzzled tourists wondering where Heuston is (sounds like a city in Texas) when they just want to get to Dublin.

Waterloo station is named after a village in Belgium, but most Londoners know exactly where the railway station is even if they could not locate the Belgian village. Victoria bus station is named after a queen they had over a century ago, but again Londoners know exactly where it is.

Do you know where Museum is on the red Luas line? Or Hospital or James - is Hospital stop St James Hospital? That I'm sure confuses some.

Once a station is given a name, it becomes the name of the place.

ignorance is strength

Sam Russell wrote: »

Waterloo station is named after a village in Belgium, but most Londoners know exactly where the railway station is even if they could not locate the Belgian village. Victoria bus station is named after a queen they had over a century ago, but again Londoners know exactly where it is.

Do you know where Museum is on the red Luas line? Or Hospital or James - is Hospital stop St James Hospital? That I'm sure confuses some.

Once a station is given a name, it becomes the name of the place.

There is an obvious difference between the renaming of prominent stations like Waterloo and Victoria and the naming of an unremarkable metro station. Only the people living in the vicinity of Na Fianna will come to know the area by that name.

Museum is named for the only significant landmark in the vicinity, and it reinforces the existing arbitrary names. But calling the stop Na Fianna needlessly expands the names. People may come to know it as Na Fianna, but just as likely, as with the bridges, they won't. Better "Mobhi Road" or "Botanic Gardens".

wakka12

Bray Head wrote: »

It's always struck me how little densification or new development there has been on the DART line since 1984.

Exceptions are offices at East Point and GCD and Clongriffin for residential.There's still a lot of green space within walking distance of Northern line stations. Inevitably uproar whenever any of it gets developed - like with the recent plans regarding St Paul's land in Raheny.


I hope a more aggressive planning approach is taken along the new Metrolink line.

There should be uproar when green space is going to built on in a city choked by a sprawling sea of ugly semi d's

plodder

ignorance is strength wrote: »

There is an obvious difference between the renaming of prominent stations like Waterloo and Victoria and the naming of an unremarkable metro station. Only the people living in the vicinity of Na Fianna will come to know the area by that name.

Museum is named for the only significant landmark in the vicinity, and it reinforces the existing arbitrary names. But calling the stop Na Fianna needlessly expands the names. People may come to know it as Na Fianna, but just as likely, as with the bridges, they won't. Better "Mobhi Road" or "Botanic Gardens".

We're probably getting ahead of ourselves here, but naming is important.

"Botanic Gardens" would be a much better name.

Sam Russell

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Museum is named for the only significant landmark in the vicinity,

Arbour Hill, Croppies Acre are both nearby. There is another Museum or two in town that might confuse the odd tourist.

Names get a life of their own, and if accepted become the local name and the name of the locality.

ignorance is strength

Sam Russell wrote: »

Arbour Hill, Croppies Acre are both nearby. There is another Museum or two in town that might confuse the odd tourist.

Names get a life of their own, and if accepted become the local name and the name of the locality.

How are you continuing with this line of argument without any concession?! Many more people visit the museum than Arbur Hill, which is behind Collins Barracks anyway; Croppies Acre isn't notable. Why would either be more appropriate? But neither affects my principle that it should be named for a significant landmark, reinforcing existing names. (Incidentally, I would have called the stop Collins Barracks, because I don't think the museum is significant enough.)

I don't doubt that it can be (and often is) the case that a name, and what it refers to, develops organically. But it is far from certain that the Na Fianna name would be embraced in that way. Did you know that Dun Laoghaire Dart station was renamed Mallin in '66? (This being Infrastructure I presume you do.) Or that Ha'penny Bridge is officially Liffey Bridge (formerly Wellington)? Yet few locals know these or have embraced them.

You explain how locals come to embrace a name. But I argue that locals should be free to allow that process occur organically without the intrusive influence of metro planners giving a concession to a GAA club of which most in the area are not members.

ignorance is strength

Thought of another benefit for Na Fianna: it connects them to their Collinstown pitches!! (Proposed station around 600m south.)

Sam Russell

ignorance is strength wrote: »

How are you continuing with this line of argument without any concession?! Many more people visit the museum than Arbur Hill, which is behind Collins Barracks anyway; Croppies Acre isn't notable. Why would either be more appropriate? But neither affects my principle that it should be named for a significant landmark, reinforcing existing names. (Incidentally, I would have called the stop Collins Barracks, because I don't think the museum is significant enough.)

I don't doubt that it can be (and often is) the case that a name, and what it refers to, develops organically. But it is far from certain that the Na Fianna name would be embraced in that way. Did you know that Dun Laoghaire Dart station was renamed Mallin in '66? (This being Infrastructure I presume you do.) Or that Ha'penny Bridge is officially Liffey Bridge (formerly Wellington)? Yet few locals know these or have embraced them.

You explain how locals come to embrace a name. But I argue that locals should be free to allow that process occur organically without the intrusive influence of metro planners giving a concession to a GAA club of which most in the area are not members.

Well we can see how Seatown and Estuary get on. Perhaps Swords North might have been better than Seatown and Lissenhall rather than Estuary. I wonder were the locals consulted.

Anyway, I think we should leave it there and allow this thread to revert to its basic topic.

ignorance is strength

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Thought of another benefit for Na Fianna: it connects them to their Collinstown pitches!! (Proposed station around 600m south.)

I think this is really significant. They’re disingenuously implying they’re a close-knit, self-sufficient club that will have three of their only four pitches taken from them for a generation, threatening the very future of the club (one of them said on Prime Time, talking about the community spirit of the club, “I don’t think we’d recover that. No money can buy that”; somewhere else I heard someone say they wished it would just go away), when, in fact, their club cohesion, etc, stands to benefit hugely from the metro connecting them to their pitches in Collinstown. Add to that that they will receive compensation, be accommodated locally during the construction, and benefit as citizens, alongside the rest of the city, and it’s starting to seem to me like they have no case at all.

jd

Michael McDowell, on the back page of the SBP, has a rant about the Metrolink. He points out that someone travelling from Carrickmines to Grangegorman DIT would have to make 2 changes if there was a metro to Sandyford. He fails to mention that someone travelling from Ranelagh to NUI Maynooth would make one change (at Cross Guns), and they would have a direct link to DCU. Carrickmine to DCU would be one change. He throws in a few digs at engineers while he is at it, and a scornful comment on DU too. Ah, but the good Burghers of Ranelagh have their nice Luas Green Line, thank you very much.. He thinks there should be loads of Luas lines built (I don't think he's thought about it in much detail, though). Oh and another orbital motorway beyond the M50.

Sam Russell

jd wrote: »

Michael McDowell, on the back page of the SBP, has a rant about the Metrolink. He points out that someone travelling from Carrickmines to Grangegorman DIT would have to make 2 changes if there was a metro to Sandyford. He fails to mention that someone travelling from Ranelagh to NUI Maynooth would make one change (at Cross Guns), and they would have a direct link to DCU. Carrickmine to DCU would be one change. He throws in a few digs at engineers while he is at it, and a scornful comment on DU too. Ah, but the good Burghers of Ranelagh have their nice Luas Green Line, thank you very much.. He thinks there should be loads of Luas lines built (I don't think he's thought about it in much detail, though)

Is this the Michael McDowell, the brother of Moore McDowell, the well known economist that is anti Luas, anti Metro, and anti all things infrastructure that is not a road?

Does he compare how often that passenger from Carrickmines to Grangegorman had to change bus before the Luas CC opened a few months ago? Or even how many such passengers there are making that kind of journey? Or how many crammed Luas trams the average passenger on the Green line has to let pass because they are full to bursting?

Thought not.



Is he even aware of how frequent the new Metro will be?

CarlosHarpic

Remember when McDowell dubed the Luas "the silent killer" before it was completed?

CarlosHarpic

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is this the Michael McDowell, the brother of Moore McDowell, the well known economist that is anti Luas, anti Metro, and anti all things infrastructure that is not a road?

Does he compare how often that passenger from Carrickmines to Grangegorman had to change bus before the Luas CC opened a few months ago? Or even how many such passengers there are making that kind of journey? Or how many crammed Luas trams the average passenger on the Green line has to let pass because they are full to bursting?

Thought not.



Is he even aware of how frequent the new Metro will be?

These are people who were shocked the Luas didn't have a piano bar. These are the level of morons we have in the media and government in this kip.

ignorance is strength

McDowell's criticism takes the classic form of, "Here's one specific scenario in which it wouldn't be better; therefore, the whole project is pointless." Needless to say, it's a horrible argument. What's more, it relies on our perception of a change of line as being very inconvenient. But the metro will run frequently and the platforms will be close to each other, meaning the inconvenience of change needs to be reevaluated. Imagine making the same argument about the London Underground - undesirable because you can't get across the city without a transfer!

I study economics, so I'm generally well disposed to economic criticisms. But those made by M McDowell, Barrett, et al, are ideological and not supported by compelling technical arguments.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is this the Michael McDowell, the brother of Moore McDowell, the well known economist that is anti Luas, anti Metro, and anti all things infrastructure that is not a road?

Does he compare how often that passenger from Carrickmines to Grangegorman had to change bus before the Luas CC opened a few months ago? Or even how many such passengers there are making that kind of journey? Or how many crammed Luas trams the average passenger on the Green line has to let pass because they are full to bursting?

Thought not.



Is he even aware of how frequent the new Metro will be?

Or the actual fact that DIT Grangegorman is only going to be a 5 minute walk from the Mater metro station.

marno21

jd wrote: »

Michael McDowell, on the back page of the SBP, has a rant about the Metrolink. He points out that someone travelling from Carrickmines to Grangegorman DIT would have to make 2 changes if there was a metro to Sandyford. He fails to mention that someone travelling from Ranelagh to NUI Maynooth would make one change (at Cross Guns), and they would have a direct link to DCU. Carrickmine to DCU would be one change. He throws in a few digs at engineers while he is at it, and a scornful comment on DU too. Ah, but the good Burghers of Ranelagh have their nice Luas Green Line, thank you very much.. He thinks there should be loads of Luas lines built (I don't think he's thought about it in much detail, though). Oh and another orbital motorway beyond the M50.

That is hands down the worst article I have read about the Metro yet. Someone with absolutely no knowledge ranting about a 3bn rail line to Dublin Airport and a few lines later claiming Glasnevin should have a Luas line ???

Anyone who denounces this project but advocates the spending of almost €2bn on a second M50 for Dublin which will create more problems than it will solve is straight away proven to be a spoofer.