Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

specialbyte

specialbyte wrote: »

We also got talking about the depot location. There is an alternate proposal to locate the depot at the Dardistown stop. This would also mean they can relocate the TBM launching site from the Na Fianna grounds to Northwoords. Ironically though the Dardistown depot would be built on the Na Fianna Grounds on the old airport road. So there's no winning really.

bk wrote: »

LOL, though depending on how many playing fields they would be taking, then I suspect Na Fianna would still prefer that location over Mobhi Road.

Well in theory they only have an "indicative" location for the depot at Dardistown so who knows if they will need Na Fianna Grounds up there. The other thing to bear in mind is that the the land take for the Mobhi Road grounds is temporary. Six years isn't short but it isn't forever either. If they do choose the current indicative location for the depot at Dardistown they'd CPO the Na Fianna Grounds up there permanently.

Even with the Dardistown depot I don't see TII relocating the station at Griffith Park on the Mobhi Road grounds. The proposed station location doesn't require CPO'ing houses (big plus) and it's in just about the right spot 1KM away from Glasnevin. With the Dardistown Depot, Na Fianna would still some of lose their main grounds temporarily for 2/3 years for the station construction. The TBM launch site would then be at Northwoods. So TII probably need to temporarily CPO far less land at Mobhi Road. The construction site can probably be way smaller if it's just a station box and not a TBM launch site. It would probably only impact the main pitch and not the all weather pitches beside the club house.

So from Na Fianna's point of view, you could make an argument that losing their main grounds for 6 years is better than permanently losing their pitches up near Dardistown/Collinstown permanently and losing their main pitch for 2/3 years. That's definitely taking a long term view.

Given all of the knock-on consequences it'll be interesting to see what option Na Fianna decide to lobby for in the end. Hopefully someone in TII is explaining the options/consequences of decisions to them so they can make the right decision for their clubs needs.

LongboardPro

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

tobsey

specialbyte wrote: »

So from Na Fianna's point of view, you could make an argument that losing their main grounds for 6 years is better than permanently losing their pitches up near Dardistown/Collinstown permanently and losing their main pitch for 2/3 years. That's definitely taking a long term view

You're completely missing the issue that Na Fianna have. They'd give up the Dardistown pitches in a heartbeat so long as the CPO allowed them to get something similar. The issue they have is losing the club grounds and effectively the clubhouse. Hundreds of kids are in Mobhi Road every weekend. They also run their mini-leagues over the summer there for I think 5-10 year olds. That is their main sporting activity and brings new members to the club who go up through the ages. They haven't a hope of getting those kids up to Dardistown at 10am on a Saturday morning. The club would lose a massive proportion of primary school kids that usually become members. That would be extremely difficult to recover from.

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

CreativeSen

LongboardPro wrote: »

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

In my view it would be nice if there was a branding exercise done on the whole public transport infrastructure in Dublin.

jd

tobsey wrote: »

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

If the TBM is launched at Northwood, I wouldn't be surprised if the station box is at the Home Farm pitch. Na Fianna main pitch would stay open, and Home Farm would get a nice sweetener with perhaps some all-weather pitches when station construction is finished.

roadmaster

jd wrote: »

If the TBM is launched at Northwood, I wouldn't be surprised if the station box is at the Home Farm pitch. Na Fianna main pitch would stay open, and Home Farm would get a nice sweetener with perhaps some all-weather pitches when station construction is finished.

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

jd

roadmaster wrote: »

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

Mobhi Road isn't the main pitch. Home Farm statement is here

specialbyte

tobsey wrote: »

You're completely missing the issue that Na Fianna have. They'd give up the Dardistown pitches in a heartbeat so long as the CPO allowed them to get something similar. The issue they have is losing the club grounds and effectively the clubhouse. Hundreds of kids are in Mobhi Road every weekend. They also run their mini-leagues over the summer there for I think 5-10 year olds. That is their main sporting activity and brings new members to the club who go up through the ages. They haven't a hope of getting those kids up to Dardistown at 10am on a Saturday morning. The club would lose a massive proportion of primary school kids that usually become members. That would be extremely difficult to recover from.

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

I think I've been misunderstood. My post was more to highlight how different engineering and design decisions would have substantially different impacts on Na Fianna. I don't know the club well enough to say what would be best for them. Only they can figure out what's best for them. There's also many factors we don't know yet or that haven't been decided. How large would a compensation agreement for Na Fianna be under every circumstance? Can alternate playing grounds be found nearby during the construction phase?

I completely understand Na Fianna's fear that they will lose a generation of players. The effects could be devastating for their club. I was involved with a Scout group where through bad management/organisation we shrunk the size of our younger age groups (beavers and cubs 6-10 year olds). The knock on effects were huge. Without any kids coming up through beavers and cubs we very quickly also had no scouts and ventures (11-18 year olds). Scouts are the core demographic and ventures were our largest source of young leaders. The whole situation almost lead to the complete collapse our Scout group. It took us about 7 years of really hard work to fully recover as a group.

I can see many choices for Na Fianna. I can't make any of them nor would I argue for any of them. It's the big reason I ended my post with:

specialbyte wrote: »

Given all of the knock-on consequences it'll be interesting to see what option Na Fianna decide to lobby for in the end. Hopefully someone in TII is explaining the options/consequences of decisions to them so they can make the right decision for their clubs needs.

Zebra3

roadmaster wrote: »

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

Shels won’t be moving from Tolka Park in the foreseeable future.

There is currently no plan on the table for Dalymount, no PP application nor is there any funding for any redevelopment.

And before it is redeveloped (if it actually happens), the plan is for Dalymount to be completely demolished which will entail Bohs playing in Tolka Park too for that period.

roadmaster

Zebra3 wrote: »

Shels won’t be moving from Tolka Park in the foreseeable future.

There is currently no plan on the table for Dalymount, no PP application nor is there any funding for any redevelopment.

And before it is redeveloped (if it actually happens), the plan is for Dalymount to be completely demolished which will entail Bohs playing in Tolka Park too for that period.

So is the whole dalymount development more a pipedream then a reality ?

Stephen15

LongboardPro wrote: »

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

Middle Man

Indeed, just a nice clean simple M sign - call a spade a spade and cut the nonsense!

Sam Russell

Let us hope there reserve their creativity to just building the line - now if not sooner.

Perhaps they could be creative and build the Swords to Airport bit first - or at least aim to open it first.

Middle Man

Sam Russell wrote: »

Let us hope there reserve their creativity to just building the line - now if not sooner.

Perhaps they could be creative and build the Swords to Airport bit first - or at least aim to open it first.

MetroLink lock stock and barrel by the 2020s!!! No more compromises - this country is a serious joke and people the world over are starting to realise that.

Zebra3

roadmaster wrote: »

So is the whole dalymount development more a pipedream then a reality ?

From the info in the public domain, I’d say yes.

LongboardPro

CreativeSen wrote: »

In my view it would be nice if there was a branding exercise done on the whole public transport infrastructure in Dublin.

I actually came up with some designs myself for each transport mode. Might post them later.

LongboardPro

Stephen15 wrote: »

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

Yeah, I don't like the Metrolink name either. I'd prefer just [Dublin] Metro. Metrolink sounds as if there will only be one line ever built as well.

BonnieSituation

Stephen15 wrote: »

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

How will it be confused with a tram system on a different city, in a different country, on a different island?

I wonder do Translink in Vancouver get confused with Translink in the North?

Sam Russell

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

Fingal Area Rapid Transit?

Maybe that joke was done in the previous incarnations of the Metro.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I really liked Dublin Metro, but I understand they were probably afraid it would get the backs up of the rest of the country. Maybe just Metro.

piuswal

specialbyte wrote: »

I think I've been misunderstood. My post was more to highlight how different engineering and design decisions would have substantially different impacts on Na Fianna. I don't know the club well enough to say what would be best for them. Only they can figure out what's best for them. There's also many factors we don't know yet or that haven't been decided. How large would a compensation agreement for Na Fianna be under every circumstance? Can alternate playing grounds be found nearby during the construction phase?

I completely understand Na Fianna's fear that they will lose a generation of players. The effects could be devastating for their club. I was involved with a Scout group where through bad management/organisation we shrunk the size of our younger age groups (beavers and cubs 6-10 year olds). The knock on effects were huge. Without any kids coming up through beavers and cubs we very quickly also had no scouts and ventures (11-18 year olds). Scouts are the core demographic and ventures were our largest source of young leaders. The whole situation almost lead to the complete collapse our Scout group. It took us about 7 years of really hard work to fully recover as a group.

I can see many choices for Na Fianna. I can't make any of them nor would I argue for any of them. It's the big reason I ended my post with:

Are people aware that there are two schools which are directly accessed through both ends of Na Fianna's main ground? Scoil Chaitriona Secondary School behind Na Fianna's clubhoues and Scoil Mobhi Primary School directly south of the clubhouse, and Whitehall College of Further Education.

See Griffith Park Station on

http://www.metrolink.ie/#/map

Why not go to the east of WCFE and use the space to the east of Scoil Mobhi with building access through Griffith Park itself. They would lose part of their playing pitch for a while but probably preferable than the present option. It would also shorten the exit route for traffic from the building site which must turn left.

Ernest

bk wrote: »

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I really liked Dublin Metro, but I understand they were probably afraid it would get the backs up of the rest of the country. Maybe just Metro.

I really must disagree with that throwaway remark: DART has an excellent reputation as a transport system - especially among those who are in the fortunate position to be able to use it.
It is fast, comfortable, reliable, easy to use and safe and - unlike the trams - does not cause city centre traffic chaos.

What's not to like!

CatInABox

piuswal wrote: »

Why not go to the east of WCFE and use the space to the east of Scoil Mobhi with building access through Griffith Park itself. They would lose part of their playing pitch for a while but probably preferable than the present option. It would also shorten the exit route for traffic from the building site which must turn left.

Cost, presumably. The metro follows the route of the road, as that allows it to be dug a lot shallower. Moving the station east, away from the road will mean tunneling under a lot more buildings, which means they'll have to go deeper, adding cost and complexity.

Brian CivilEng

bk wrote: »

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I beg to differ, not sure where you got that from. I live where I live because of the DART. The only criticism I have of it is that is gets very congested at peak hours.

specialbyte

Ernest wrote: »

I really must disagree with that throwaway remark: DART has an excellent reputation as a transport system - especially among those who are in the fortunate position to be able to use it.
It is fast, comfortable, reliable, easy to use and safe and - unlike the trams - does not cause city centre traffic chaos.

What's not to like!

To be fair to bk I'm assume they are referring to NTA survey on passenger satisfaction that was released in February this year. In that survey of passengers DART passengers were the less satisfied passengers. I think with some simple changes IE could greatly improve their level of service. Though I suspect they need some serious infrastructure improvements to get it service where everyone wants it. (I assume those changes will be coming as part of the DART expansion programme.)

Article on the survey: http://www.thejournal.ie/dart-passengers-commuters-survey-3848499-Feb2018/

piuswal

CatInABox wrote: »

Cost, presumably. The metro follows the route of the road, as that allows it to be dug a lot shallower. Moving the station east, away from the road will mean tunneling under a lot more buildings, which means they'll have to go deeper, adding cost and complexity.

Yes, I can see that point but having a bore hole at Na Fianna will mean a very difficult environment, noise and particle pollution for hundreds of school children

Noise is going to be a major issue - seemingly some study associated with Frankfurt Airport is an example of the deleterious effect of constant noise pollution on school children - must try and find it.

I must say naming it Griffith Park is misleading to many, even those who know the area thought it was referring to the nearby park on the Tolka, which I already referred to as a possible option.

Another issue that seems to have arise is a claim that houses on Prospect Avenue are simply built on clay!! No proper foundations!

One can see the reasons for Mater (hospital) , Glasnevin (connect to railway lines and there is a lot of space there) and Collins Ave (DCU) stations but Griffith Park aka Na Fianna is simply a filler meet a distance between stops requirement,yet is likely to cause the greatest disruption to the greatest number of people and groups and organisations.

From Glasnevin why not go NW in line with the Finglas Rd then head north under GlasnevinCemetery and the Botanic Gardens crossing the Old Finglas Rd in line with the Ballymun Rd just west of Met Eireann and you are under road all the way to the Collins Ave station?

There seems to be plenty of open space north of the Tolka just after the Botanic Gardens between the Tolka House and the Mary Alyward Centre. The two St Mary's schools are quite a distance away whereas you have 3 schools (I forgot a play school in Na Fianna) within metres of the current propose site.

specialbyte

For those of you who like thinking in crayon about the station locations it's quite interesting to use an isochrone tools like open route services to see how station location affects potential catchment size. Using this tool you can tell you how far could you walk from a station location by walking 2 mins, 4 mins, 6 mins etc. given the local road network. It also can give you some population estimates for how many people live within those walking distances. The tool isn't perfect and it struggles with some pedestrian only paths so in some cases it underestimates the distance you could travel. This isochrone tools could also be used by the councils to try and improve pedestrian access to the metro stops by identifying bottlenecks.

For example here's an isochrone from the proposed Griffith Park stop with a walking distance of 14 mins going at a standard 6km/h pace. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/reach?n1=53.380205&n2=-6.256578&n3=15&a=53.375521,-6.264496&b=2&i=0&j1=14&j2=2&l1=1&l4=1&g1=-1&g2=5&d=6&k1=en-US&k2=km

You can see in the alignment choices report that the engineers who designed the metro emerging preferred route used a much more capable and sophisticated tool than this one to figure station catchment sizes.

piuswal

specialbyte wrote: »

For those of you who like thinking in crayon about the station locations it's quite interesting to use an isochrone tools like open route services to see how station location affects potential catchment size. Using this tool you can tell you how far could you walk from a station location by walking 2 mins, 4 mins, 6 mins etc. given the local road network. It also can give you some population estimates for how many people live within those walking distances. The tool isn't perfect and it struggles with some pedestrian only paths so in some cases it underestimates the distance you could travel. This isochrone tools could also be used by the councils to try and improve pedestrian access to the metro stops by identifying bottlenecks.

For example here's an isochrone from the proposed Griffith Park stop with a walking distance of 14 mins going at a standard 6km/h pace. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/reach?n1=53.380205&n2=-6.256578&n3=15&a=53.375521,-6.264496&b=2&i=0&j1=14&j2=2&l1=1&l4=1&g1=-1&g2=5&d=6&k1=en-US&k2=km

You can see in the alignment choices report that the engineers who designed the metro emerging preferred route used a much more capable and sophisticated tool than this one to figure station catchment sizes.

Thanks. Are you saying that Na Fianna was chosen because of the catchment?

Of course following a road is a great bonus.

Moving west to a station off Glasnevin Hill or the Old Finglas Road would obviously reduce the numbers within the same walkung time zone but there would be less disruption to houses, as much if not more following current roads and the removal of hundreds of children and schools etc from the environmental hazards of a very very close bore hole.

Which is more important?
+

CatInABox

piuswal wrote: »

Yes, I can see that point but having a bore hole at Na Fianna will mean a very difficult environment, noise and particle pollution for hundreds of school children

Noise is going to be a major issue - seemingly some study associated with Frankfurt Airport is an example of the deleterious effect of constant noise pollution on school children - must try and find it.

A lot of that could be sorted before hand though, only use trucks with netting covering the load, noise barriers to reduce the sound out, improved windows on the schools, etc. They're issues, but they're relatively easy to mitigate.

piuswal wrote: »

One can see the reasons for Mater (hospital) , Glasnevin (connect to railway lines and there is a lot of space there) and Collins Ave (DCU) stations but Griffith Park aka Na Fianna is simply a filler meet a distance between stops requirement,yet is likely to cause the greatest disruption to the greatest number of people and groups and organisations.

From Glasnevin why not go NW in line with the Finglas Rd then head north under GlasnevinCemetery and the Botanic Gardens crossing the Old Finglas Rd in line with the Ballymun Rd just west of Met Eireann and you are under road all the way to the Collins Ave station?

There seems to be plenty of open space north of the Tolka just after the Botanic Gardens between the Tolka House and the Mary Alyward Centre. The two St Mary's schools are quite a distance away whereas you have 3 schools (I forgot a play school in Na Fianna) within metres of the current propose site.

It's not a filler station. Without it, a large section of North Dublin will have a Metro line going underneath it, with service levels unimaginable for most people right now, and no way of getting on it. It'd be a slap in the face for everyone living in the area.

Highly unlikely that the route will go underneath a cemetery, there'd be far too many objections from quite a lot of diverse groups, from the church, to historians, to most political parties(all wanting to be seen to be protecting the memory of the rising/civil war).