Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

At the stop I recently used, Ranelagh, the peak time figures are as follows:

Morning frequency: minimum 2 minutes, average 4 minutes, maximum 7 minutes

Evening frequency: minimum 3 minutes, average 5 minutes, maximum 9 minutes

It looks like there is plenty of scope for increasing the frequency, and that's before the extra capacity of the 55 metre trams kicks in.

Not really.

Getting the average down to two or three minutes would most likely require the Luas to be grade separated. Of course, if you're going to go through the hassle of grade separating it, then sure you might as well do a capacity upgrade at the same time. Of course, it'll be easy to do the upgrade out to Sandyford, because such an upgrade was taken into account when designing and building it in the first place.

So that's the Metro Upgrade then.

Also, doing a patch job on the Luas still won't change the fact that any other route for the Metro won't unlock as much development potential.

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

At the stop I recently used, Ranelagh, the peak time figures are as follows:

Morning frequency: minimum 2 minutes, average 4 minutes, maximum 7 minutes

Evening frequency: minimum 3 minutes, average 5 minutes, maximum 9 minutes

It looks like there is plenty of scope for increasing the frequency, and that's before the extra capacity of the 55 metre trams kicks in.

Trams going the College Green every 2 or 3 minutes will paralyse the City Centre.

I know someone who several years ago had to get a morning tram out from Windy Arbour to Dundrum so that they could get on board as it was at crush by WA. Now longer trams have been introduced since then, and we are now at 55 metres, the longest trams in Europe, and they do not work too well.

The Green Line is reported to be at crush in the Morning now. At grade operation has to end, and the best way to achieve this is Metrolink, with the passage through the CC underground.

Taking a different route south of St Stephen's Green is not on offer.

Sam Russell

Public Consultation - Metrolink.

Submissions close this Friday, 11th May, 2018.

Please make all observations directly to them. See metrolink.ie

Posting here does not count.

Dats me

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It looks like there is plenty of scope for increasing the frequency, and that's before the extra capacity of the 55 metre trams kicks in.

All 55m trams are back in operation.

See here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055947068&page=323

jd

It doesn't say so on the web site, but according to the leaflet handed out at the public consultations you can email your submission to
consultations@metrolink.ie

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But it isn't running out of capacity.

...


There is a strong suspicion that it won't have a higher throughput of vehicles than is currently operating on the route, or that could currently operate on the route. And it introduces an unnecessary complication for people travelling to/from south of Sandyford to/from the centre of the city.

So, what is the point of spending money on the upgrade?

It is very hard to see it.

You make a very important point here.

It is difficult to see this or explain this point. It has not been demonstrated clearly to date. A lot more work needs to go into communicating it.

In terms of figures, the most that the green line can possibly do is a tram every three minutes, ie 20 trams per hour. With 300 people per tram (which is a lot) that’s 6000 people per hour. (This is far less than the TII claims. They say that it can fit 8100 people per hour on 30 trams per hour. But this is just not realistic. Even without traffic or other SNAFUs, two non-grade separated lines which cross would have difficulty operating at this frequency.

In fact it will be extremely difficult to get 20 trams through the City Centre in an hour on a wet day. The traffic and the crossing with the other luas just slow things down too much. Stopping some trains at St Stephen’s Green would help a little but it would cause other problems on platforms which would cause other delays.

Sam Russell

If Metrolink goes with 60 m trains, they are 10% longer the 55 m trams. Metros are wider than trams, so another 10 %, and driverless trams allow for more capacity - say 25% more can be carried on a Metro train than the longest tram.

Now Metro will be grade separated, allowing through running at the various crossing points. Driverless trains allows 90 second headway compared with 3 min for trams. So overall, the Metro can have a capacity of more than 2.5 times that of the tram.

90 metre trains with bring that the 3.5 times.

There is no doubt that the Metro will carry much more than twice the max number possible on the current service, capable of further expansion. The question is - is that increase needed? The answer is YES. Metro goes further than the current Luas service does, in particular to the Airport, which has carried 30 million passengers last year, and Metrolink is still a decade away.

Clearly, once built, Metro II will be in planning, if not in construction.

BonnieSituation

Can we try to come to a consensus about submissions so that loads of practically identical ones making the same point are submitted to have more effect?

We have til Friday.

Dats me

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can we try to come to a consensus about submissions so that loads of practically identical ones making the same point are submitted to have more effect?

We have til Friday.

Great idea!

I think there is a consensus on the following and they could be included in every submission, they were in mine:

• Trains should be high-floor and driver-less, to allow extra capacity (look at how green-line capacity was underestimated) and potentially a 24hr service
• 90m platforms for future capacity
• Whitworth interchange is the superior interchange option
• That we absolutely believe that this project is a vital infrastructure project for the future of Dublin and the country

Please add points to this or post if you disagree with any points

Sam Russell

Dats me wrote: »

Great idea!

I think there is a consensus on the following and they could be included in every submission, they were in mine:

• Trains should be high-floor and driver-less, to allow extra capacity (look at how green-line capacity was underestimated) and potentially a 24hr service
• 90m platforms for future capacity
• Whitworth interchange is the superior interchange option
• That we absolutely believe that this project is a vital infrastructure project for the future of Dublin and the country

Please add points to this or post if you disagree with any points

Can I add Dardistown for the depot. It is better for the depot as it is land that is strile for housing (due to noise) while the site at Lissenhall is not. It also provides an additional P&R but DAA might object to that as they provide P&F aplenty.

The project is to unlock land for housing and industry, and reduce car usage, particularly M50 traffic.

Submission must not appear to be multiple copies of identical material from a central source.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

More crayon stuff. This should go in the other thread

It would double the cost.

Let us get Metrolink built first before diverting attention from it. Lots of people will have their own favourite diversions.

It will not double the cost. It would add approx 1.5 billion to the cost, but service an area of the city that has no access to proper pt

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink goes with 60 m trains, they are 10% longer the 55 m trams. Metros are wider than trams, so another 10 %, and driverless trams allow for more capacity - say 25% more can be carried on a Metro train than the longest tram.

Now Metro will be grade separated, allowing through running at the various crossing points. Driverless trains allows 90 second headway compared with 3 min for trams. So overall, the Metro can have a capacity of more than 2.5 times that of the tram.

90 metre trains with bring that the 3.5 times.

There is no doubt that the Metro will carry much more than twice the max number possible on the current service, capable of further expansion. The question is - is that increase needed? The answer is YES. Metro goes further than the current Luas service does, in particular to the Airport, which has carried 30 million passengers last year, and Metrolink is still a decade away.

Clearly, once built, Metro II will be in planning, if not in construction.

To be fair I was out at the cherrywood development and there’s approx 6000 houses being built not including the other developments in the area. This is the reason the green line HAS to be upgraded.
However I think the case for building the sw line or metro 2 whatever ya want to call it, has to be pushed also at the same time.
Make it clear to the public, politicians and Tii/nta that the second metro is also crucial. Make our argument for metro’s so loud that the negative narrative is drowned out.
There’s a hell of a lot of housing being built around firhouse Knocklyon Tallaght that needs to be serviced with quality pt.

Sam Russell

Mod: @ tom1ie Please refrain from pushing Metro II on this thread. Keep it for the other one.

Pete_Cavan

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can we try to come to a consensus about submissions so that loads of practically identical ones making the same point are submitted to have more effect?

We have til Friday.

Proper secure bicycle parking at stations and upgrading of cycle lanes on approach. From the consultations, they are proposing some surface level bike stands at stations where space allows. When building an underground station, I can't see how it would be much more expensive to include a level of bike parking, it would greatly increase the catchment area of the station.

marno21

tom1ie wrote: »

It will not double the cost. It would add approx 1.5 billion to the cost, but service an area of the city that has no access to proper pt

This Metro scheme is already the most expensive undertaking in the history of the State and is already expensive enough. Adding any additional cost onto the scheme let alone an extra 50% is out of the question.

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

This Metro scheme is already the most expensive undertaking in the history of the State and is already expensive enough. Adding any additional cost onto the scheme let alone an extra 50% is out of the question.

Only because the way it's being presented. If it was a road it would be built in "phases". 1 BN for a tunnel from SSG to the Airport , 1 BN for Airport past swords , 500 MN for the Green Line upgrade and if the public didn't swallow that just split it up even more.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

This Metro scheme is already the most expensive undertaking in the history of the State and is already expensive enough. Adding any additional cost onto the scheme let alone an extra 50% is out of the question.

That's just not true, the ardnacrusha hydro-electric scheme and the rural electrification scheme that followed involved spending the majority of the state's budget. It'd be like building a €40billion scheme today over a much shorter timeframe. That amount of money would cure all of our transport needs for generations.

Zebra3

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can we try to come to a consensus about submissions so that loads of practically identical ones making the same point are submitted to have more effect?

We have til Friday.

Every second or third station needs to also have a comprehensive, high quality bus interchange on its doorstep.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In terms of figures, the most that the green line can possibly do is a tram every three minutes, ie 20 trams per hour. With 300 people per tram (which is a lot) that’s 6000 people per hour. (This is far less than the TII claims. They say that it can fit 8100 people per hour on 30 trams per hour. But this is just not realistic. Even without traffic or other SNAFUs, two non-grade separated lines which cross would have difficulty operating at this frequency.

I wonder if you're right here, Antoin. This seems a bit unambitious for the section between Cherrywood and St. Stephen's Green. Every two minutes at peak times should be very doable on such a stretch, at least 90% of which is well separated from other traffic.

If LUAS were to run 30 trams per hour on that section, it should be relatively easy, for example, to run ten 55m trams from Cherrywood(terminating at the siding in St. Stephen's Green) and for the other twenty 40m trams to travel through the city to Broombridge at a very manageable 3 minute frequency through very central places like College Green (referenced by the poster Sam Russell above).

I don't have any figures for the capacity of the 55m trams, but Wikipedia is currently telling us that the original trams on that line (30m) had a capacity of 256 people and that the 40m trams have a capacity of 358 people. I'm going to assign a generously low figure of 400 people to the 55m trams.

On that basis, ten 55m trams to/from St. Stephen's Green should be able to carry 4,000 people per hour, while the 20 shorter trams (travelling across the city centre) should be able to carry around 7,160 per hour. Thus, a total of over 11,000 passengers per hour in each direction.

This is very comfortably above the TII figures (8,100 passengers per hour, in one direction) you mention above.

A tram every 3 minutes, on average, across somewhere like College Green, should be very manageable. Plenty of cities have such throughput in central areas.

The only very obvious flaw that I can see with such an arrangement is that it would terminate about a third of the trams a bit short of the really meaty bits of the city centre, but I would be confident that there is enough peak time demand from places like the Harcourt Centre and the area near to St. Stephen's Green for that not to be a major problem.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In fact it will be extremely difficult to get 20 trams through the City Centre in an hour on a wet day. The traffic and the crossing with the other luas just slow things down too much. Stopping some trains at St Stephen’s Green would help a little but it would cause other problems on platforms which would cause other delays.

20 trams per hour really shouldn't be a problem in the central parts of Dublin, north of St. Stephen's Green. One obvious place, in a wet city, which seems to handle much more than that, is St. Peter's Square in Manchester. I'm also puzzled why stopping trams at St. Stephen's Green should be a problem: an announcement that 'this train terminates here' should really be sufficient.

The planners of this metro project are happy that 15,000 people per hour is sufficient for this proposed metro, for the time being. And I can readily get that those volumes would be appropriate for a side of the city - let's say the area north of St. Stephen's Green - which includes Swords, The Airport, Ballymun, DCU and the busiest parts of the centre of Dublin.

On the southside, with the only relatively large uptake of this proposed line being at St. Stephen's Green (because it's close to the city centre) and Sandyford, I question whether such volumes are necessary.

salmocab

A tram every 2 minutes means that anywhere a road and luas line meets has a tram crossing every 60 seconds. The 2 minute gap between trams means the tram would need instant crossing and no waiting on traffic that would result in traffic in the city getting even worse

Carlos Orange

salmocab wrote: »

A tram every 2 minutes means that anywhere a road and luas line meets has a tram crossing every 60 seconds. The 2 minute gap between trams means the tram would need instant crossing and no waiting on traffic that would result in traffic in the city getting even worse

That doesn't seem very plausible. As it is I often see three luas fairly close together (after station,at station and before station) because the luas doesn't seem to get any sort of priority at the intersection.

Dats me

psinno wrote: »

That doesn't seem very plausible. As it is I often see three luas fairly close together (after station,at station and before station) because the luas doesn't seem to get any sort of priority at the intersection.

Luas Green líne does have priority, so if you're seeing them pile up now, imagine what it would be like with half the headway between trams.

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I wonder if you're right here, Antoin. This seems a bit unambitious for the section between Cherrywood and St. Stephen's Green. Every two minutes at peak times should be very doable on such a stretch, at least 90% of which is well separated from other traffic.

Unfortunately it isn't the average grade separation along the route which matters. It's the weakest link that determines the overall capacity. The weakest link is the junction south of St Stephen's Green, and Adelaide Road doesn't look great either. The other junctions are also problems.

The problem is that if you run luas's too frequently, they'll start to stack up behind one another. This already happens occasionally in the city centre section. Then you have delays at individual platforms and uneven loading (because the gaps between trams become variable).

If LUAS were to run 30 trams per hour on that section, it should be relatively easy, for example, to run ten 55m trams from Cherrywood(terminating at the siding in St. Stephen's Green) and for the other twenty 40m trams to travel through the city to Broombridge at a very manageable 3 minute frequency through very central places like College Green (referenced by the poster Sam Russell above).

I don't think 20 per hour is particularly manageable in the city centre. This is really the maximum you can expect to be able to achieve with very good management indeed. At this level, the green line trams will frequently have to wait for red line trams to pass, before we even start to talk about traffic.

30 trams up to St Stephen's Green? I just don't think it could be sustained. If the trains fell off schedule at all, they would quickly end up queueing at the junctions. Once you have queueing you have uneven loading.

I don't have any figures for the capacity of the 55m trams, but Wikipedia is currently telling us that the original trams on that line (30m) had a capacity of 256 people and that the 40m trams have a capacity of 358 people. I'm going to assign a generously low figure of 400 people to the 55m trams.

I understand (from merrionstreet.ie) that the alleged maximum capacity is 369 passengers. This is a bit theoretical though.

On that basis, ten 55m trams to/from St. Stephen's Green should be able to carry 4,000 people per hour, while the 20 shorter trams (travelling across the city centre) should be able to carry around 7,160 per hour. Thus, a total of over 11,000 passengers per hour in each direction.

This is very comfortably above the TII figures (8,100 passengers per hour, in one direction) you mention above.

A tram every 3 minutes, on average, across somewhere like College Green, should be very manageable. Plenty of cities have such throughput in central areas.

It is across the six lanes either side of the liffey that I'd be concerned about. I think in practice you would need to send the longer trains on to Broombridge. As I say it isn't the average capacity that is the problem - it's the capacity at the bottleneck.

The only very obvious flaw that I can see with such an arrangement is that it would terminate about a third of the trams a bit short of the really meaty bits of the city centre, but I would be confident that there is enough peak time demand from places like the Harcourt Centre and the area near to St. Stephen's Green for that not to be a major problem.

I just don't think so. The major destinations are north of St Stephen's Green. But I do not have the statistics.

20 trams per hour really shouldn't be a problem in the central parts of Dublin, north of St. Stephen's Green. One obvious place, in a wet city, which seems to handle much more than that, is St. Peter's Square in Manchester. I'm also puzzled why stopping trams at St. Stephen's Green should be a problem: an announcement that 'this train terminates here' should really be sufficient.

My concern with terminating trains at St Stephen's Green is that you would have people getting off there and waiting on the platform for the next tram. A very large proportion of people will want to travel further north than St Stephen's Green. It could be quite a mosh. The platform is very busy at times even as it is.

Still, maybe there is someone out there who will promise to manage the trains at that frequency. I hope they don't have to put down a massive bond.

I don't know much about Manchester, but it looks like their peak frequency on their routes is around 3 minutes, with most being 6 minutes. There is one section where they have much higher combined frequencies, but this is possible because there are many different routes feeding into and out of this section. It's not really the same as the Green Line.

The planners of this metro project are happy that 15,000 people per hour is sufficient for this proposed metro, for the time being. And I can readily get that those volumes would be appropriate for a side of the city - let's say the area north of St. Stephen's Green - which includes Swords, The Airport, Ballymun, DCU and the busiest parts of the centre of Dublin.

On the southside, with the only relatively large uptake of this proposed line being at St. Stephen's Green (because it's close to the city centre) and Sandyford, I question whether such volumes are necessary.

This isn't really how it works. The usefulness and popularity of a transport system increases not in proportion to the number of stops but in proportion to the number of possible journeys. The extra stops on the Green Line and the link to the red line have made it much more attractive than it was before because there are now so many extra possible journeys available (so for example, there are now five major hospitals directly accessible from the Luas for green line passengers, whereas previously, there was only one). As a result, the demand on the Green line will continue to grow steadily for years to come. Added to that, there is plenty of development out at the Cherrywood end of the line and the city's population is growing overall.

monument

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I understand (from merrionstreet.ie) that the alleged maximum capacity is 369 passengers. This is a bit theoretical though.

It was revised upwards.

It's 408 passengers for the 55 meter trams -- compared to between 309 and 319 for older trams.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

Luas Green líne does have priority, so if you're seeing them pile up now, imagine what it would be like with half the headway between trams.

This is just a problem of LUAS drivers not keeping to their schedule. There should be no difficulty keeping to 20 trams per hour, through the busiest parts of the city, if the drivers keep to the schedule. Every other city I've seen seems to be able to manage it.

Carlos Orange

Dats me wrote: »

Luas Green líne does have priority, so if you're seeing them pile up now, imagine what it would be like with half the headway between trams.

From the direction I'm arriving it looks like the luas is waiting for a light change but I can't actually see the lights. I suppose it could just be waiting for the traffic to clear the junction.

Zebra3

strassenwo!f wrote: »

This is just a problem of LUAS drivers not keeping to their schedule. There should be no difficulty keeping to 20 trams per hour, through the busiest parts of the city, if the drivers keep to the schedule. Every other city I've seen seems to be able to manage it.

Not sure how a Luas driver can keep to their schedule if there’s cars blocking their path in a yellow box.

strassenwo!f

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not sure how a Luas driver can keep to their schedule if there’s cars blocking their path in a yellow box.

That is a very fair point, and I fully accept that my earlier comment about LUAS drivers was very slack.

There are other factors involved until other road users learn to respect the importance of public transport vehicles.

CatInABox

strassenwo!f wrote: »

There are other factors involved until other road users learn to respect the importance of public transport vehicles.

Considering the number of cars in bus lanes all around Dublin, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

Sam Russell

CatInABox wrote: »

Considering the number of cars in bus lanes all around Dublin, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.

It will happen about one week after the Gardai start enforcing it through Operation 'Free Bus Lanes' or whatever they decide to call it.

Of course it will be paid for by all the FPNs issued for driving in the bus lane, no licence, no insurance, no motor tax, and no NCT. It is usually those people that drive in the bus lane.

Metrolink Public Consultation ends soon. Get your views known by then.