Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Dats me

Strassenwolf I agree that the inter connector should really be going ahead (arguable ahead of the Metro), although even if it was the Stephen's Green station would only connect you with Northern Line & Kildare DARTs wouldn't it? So to reach Bray & Maynooth Line DARTs the Tara station would still be a good idea.

Digging up that much land anywhere in the city centre is going to create huge amounts of disruption wherever it is, important to keep an eye on the greater good (of course with due regard to the people affected and the need to ensure that they're properly accommodated).

Dats me

Grandeeod wrote: »

When a Metro was originally floated in terms of an actual route, 16 odd years ago the whole Tara Street thing was debated to death. Originally it would go under/near Tara street. Then it would go under Westmoreland street with a long underground walkway to Tara Street station. Then the Interconnector/DU project came into play and it was decided the interchange would be at the top of Grafton street/The Green as per T21 with Metro heading in a straight line. The current Metrolink plan baffles me. Upgrading the Green line is a good idea, but its bogged down in potential hand grenades that we have already seen evidence of. It looks very like the Metrolink idea is based on a FG influenced plan that does not and will not include any kind of DU. From my own direct involvement 15 years ago FG appear happy to route Metrolink via Tara street and the Glasnevin Junction area and accept this as the ultimate connectivity. But that merely pays lip service and won't equate with a DART network that will continue to struggle after expansion without DU.

May I ask what you direct involvement was? Sounds interesting.


I think everyone here would agree the DU is needed.

MJohnston

Qrt wrote: »

And lose all useful DART connectivity?

Look, I just said "could" not should or would.

strassenwo!f

Dats me wrote: »

Strassenwolf I agree that the inter connector should really be going ahead (arguable ahead of the Metro), although even if it was the Stephen's Green station would only connect you with Northern Line & Kildare DARTs wouldn't it? So to reach Bray & Maynooth Line DARTs the Tara station would still be a good idea.

The original plan was that there would have been a connection between the metro and the Maynooth - Bray DART at Drumcondra. There would have been a connection between the Metro and the Malahide/Howth - Hazelhatch DART at St. Stephen's Green (I never saw why St. Stephen's Green was so important, and still don't now that the cross-city LUAS line has been built, and I watch with great interest the city's plan to pedestrianise College Green, but that is for another thread). In any case, full connectivity between Metro and DART would have been achieved with the earlier plan.

Dats me wrote: »

Digging up that much land anywhere in the city centre is going to create huge amounts of disruption wherever it is, important to keep an eye on the greater good (of course with due regard to the people affected and the need to ensure that they're properly accommodated).

It's always difficult.

I think it's just good to be clear, and to remind some readers, about why the authorities are planning to dig up Luke Street rather than the Apollo House/Hawkins' House block, and why this project now needs to take a detour via Tara Street Station to achieve this connectivity, when the earlier project didn't.

The DART Underground project required a big loop up to St. Stephen's Green, because the LUAS wasn't in any other central location at that time (because the link-up hadn't yet been built). It's off the agenda at the moment, but I would seriously question whether the big loop, with all the extra expense, would be suggested now, given that the link-up has been built, and pedestrianisation of College Green is very much on the agenda.

Similarly, is it necessary to build a metro diversion to Tara Street, if something similar to DART Underground is going to come back on the agenda?

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Similarly, is it necessary to build a metro diversion to Tara Street, if something similar to DART Underground is going to come back on the agenda?

Well it seems DU is off the agenda for now and even if it came back, it would be a good 10 years after Metrolink opens, so you would still need Tara Street.

Also it isn't really a diversion, it is pretty much straight north of the now planned Stephens Green East Metro station.

It is a pretty excellent location for an interchange. I'd assume a redesigned DU tunnel will end up taking it into account and won't go all the way down to Stephens Green.

Kermit.de.frog

Anyone have the feeling we will be taking about this for 25 years before any progress is made?

CatInABox

bk wrote: »

It is a pretty excellent location for an interchange. I'd assume a redesigned DU tunnel will end up taking it into account and won't go all the way down to Stephens Green.

Yes, I'd imagine a new DU tunnel would follow Dame St and meet up with Tara St station before heading northside. Tara St would become the most important interchange station in Dublin

Idbatterim

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone have the feeling we will be taking about this for 25 years before any progress is made?

Yes and no. Yes because it’s this banana republic. No because with the insane amount of construction work going on offices, hotel, student accommodation, residential, there just isn’t going to be the “do nothing “ option ...

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep to Metrolink please. Plenty of other threads for off topic discussions.

D.L.R.

MN/DU plans were extremely naive on hindsight. Dail bar was busy back then...

There's so much a (sober) govt could do with our existing network, and Metrolink is just a smarter project in that sense. It packs a huge punch by itself, which MN didn't. It gives Dublin the chance of a half decent rail network in only 10-15 years, and not in 30-40 years which MN/DU/MS would have required.

People just need to recalibrate what they think this small state is actually capable of delivering in these timeframes.

MetroLinker

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I think it's just good to be clear, and to remind some readers, about why the authorities are planning to dig up Luke Street rather than the Apollo House/Hawkins' House block, and why this project now needs to take a detour via Tara Street Station to achieve this connectivity, when the earlier project didn't.

My understanding is that the proposed Apollo House/Hawkins House is designed with a pedestrian route to connect towards the DART station from the end of D'Olier Street. This is one of the CGIs where you are looking from the Long Stone Sculpture outside Pearse Street Garda Station up towards the corner of Poolbeg Street (Mulligans pub is just off to the left of the image):


Is there a possibility that they will put a MetroLink entrance to join up with this design or is it just relating to the DART? Apollo House site is up for sale at the moment as well.

marno21

Irish Times reporting this morning on the 3.3m spent on consultant fees so far

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/some-3-3m-spent-so-far-on-fees-to-consultants-for-dublin-metro-1.3646580

Lord Glentoran

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Times reporting this morning on the 3.3m spent on consultant fees so far

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/some-3-3m-spent-so-far-on-fees-to-consultants-for-dublin-metro-1.3646580

What is this fear that Official Ireland has about making a decision and acting on it?

Jeezo.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Times reporting this morning on the 3.3m spent on consultant fees so far

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/some-3-3m-spent-so-far-on-fees-to-consultants-for-dublin-metro-1.3646580

Hardly surprising. It's not like the NTA have experts on building a metro on staff.

I do have to wonder though, does the Irish Times believe that major projects like the Metrolink just appear fully formed in a project managers head, where he then draws it out on paper and they get to work straight away? There's always an undercurrent of pearl clutching going on, "My gosh, they spent how much????", when in reality, 3 million on consultants for a multi-billion euro project is next to nothing. There's lots of legitimate waste in the public domain, so to focus on stuff like this surely does a disservice to their readers.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Irish Times reporting this morning on the 3.3m spent on consultant fees so far

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/some-3-3m-spent-so-far-on-fees-to-consultants-for-dublin-metro-1.3646580

What kind of project can be accomplished without consultants, who provide expertise not in house? I assume this includes engineering, and not just PR.

MJohnston

Typical Irish media bull****. They can't maintain any sense of objectivity, even in their ostensibly 'objective' pure news stories. Even the headline "Some €3.3m spent so far on fees to consultants for Dublin Metro" - all unarguably factual, but the "some" starts it off with a scolding tone, "fees to consultants" is clearly intended to antagonize the general public with minor sensationalism in suggesting that it's purely fluff being funded. Subheadline "Around 100 properties will have to be purchased to allow for €3bn project to go ahead" - not "to be purchase" or anything, but "will have to be".

That's before even getting into the article itself - like what is their point? An ongoing project is going to continue to acrue costs, and in the planning stage the majority of those are going to be consultant related.

Just a subtle taste of how much of a garbage heap the Irish media is.

Idbatterim

Sure that’s nothing. E600 on dcc Christmas trees. Department of health building sitting vacant sixteen million. The dcc idiots spendung 500,000 on apartments on our land. Hundreds of million going up in smoke on welfare increases this year, I wonder will the author be writing about the welfare increases in the same tone ! This project unlike most things here, is a great investment !

CatInABox

As bad as that article is, don't click into the BusConnects one. My head nearly exploded reading the talk about "exorbitant" fees.

MJohnston

I saw "exorbitant" in the related articles headline and decided I could do without the extra blood pressure today.

madbeanman

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sure that’s nothing. E600 on dcc Christmas trees. Department of health building sitting vacant sixteen million. The dcc idiots spendung 500,000 on apartments on our land. Hundreds of million going up in smoke on welfare increases this year, I wonder will the author be writing about the welfare increases in the same tone ! This project unlike most things here, is a great investment !

I feel like complaining about welfare increases is not the point of this thread.

MetroLinker

This article from 2010: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/metro-north-manager-says-project-has-broad-support-1.687285

About €135 million has already been spent on enabling works and planning for Metro North and the Railway Procurement Agency said yesterday that €45 million had been provided for it in the Budget. This brings the total spend on Metro North to almost €200 million before the project has received Government approval.

€3.3 million is scraping the surface of what needs to be spent.

cgcsb

why no context? the reader isn't given comparison to other projects domestic or international, only the implication that €3,3m is a lot.

How does an average reader know what the going rate for consultancy fees a project like this (unmatched in scale in this country.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

why no context? the reader isn't given comparison to other projects domestic or international, only the implication that €3,3m is a lot.

How does an average reader know what the going rate for consultancy fees a project like this (unmatched in scale in this country.

Well, architects charge in the order of 10% for projects. I would imagine that engineering consultants would be of the same order.

Now €3.9 million is of the order of 0.13% of the projected cost of €3 billion.

Could they let us know the cost of consultants on the cost of othr major road schemes built recently?

MetroLinker

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, architects charge in the order of 10% for projects. I would imagine that engineering consultants would be of the same order.

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Building_design_and_construction_fees

As the project gets bigger, the percentages go down. I don't know how it works for a large project like this with a huge engineering input compared to the link above which is more for buildings.

It has a nice list of the other consultants typically employed for an office development so presume a lot more than this required for a large infrastructure project:

• Survey
• Party wall
• Acoustics
• Site inspector
• Soil investigation
• Landscape design
• Traffic engineer
• Programmer
• Interior designer
• Right of light
• Archaeology
• Building regulations
• CDM co-ordinator
• Planning fees

CatInABox

MetroLinker wrote: »

https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Building_design_and_construction_fees

As the project gets bigger, the percentages go down. I don't know how it works for a large project like this with a huge engineering input compared to the link above which is more for buildings.

It has a nice list of the other consultants typically employed for an office development so presume a lot more than this required for a large infrastructure project:

• Survey
• Party wall
• Acoustics
• Site inspector
• Soil investigation
• Landscape design
• Traffic engineer
• Programmer
• Interior designer
• Right of light
• Archaeology
• Building regulations
• CDM co-ordinator
• Planning fees

Don't forget all the legal fees to lawyers for all the work on the CPOs as well.

FreudianSlippers

CatInABox wrote: »

Don't forget all the legal fees to lawyers for all the work on the CPOs as well.

I wouldn't suggest attempting a CPO without a team of good lawyers in fairness

CatInABox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wouldn't suggest attempting a CPO without a team of good lawyers in fairness

Yeah, and you probably won't find all that many in the NTA....

D.L.R.

Why is the media not publishing consultancy fees for all the empty rural motorways the state has built/is building? Morons.

Quick, lets bypass another rural town with a massive motorway suspension bridge. That should solve the Irish economy :rolleyes:

Dumb country.

madbeanman

Aaaaaanyways away from swipping at people and the government/country, we are still without a revised route. It’s over a month late now. Maybe there are some hiccoughs?

bk

madbeanman wrote: »

Aaaaaanyways away from swipping at people and the government/country, we are still without a revised route. It’s over a month late now. Maybe there are some hiccoughs?

Might be down to the issues BusConnects and Dart are having at the moment. There is an awful lot going on at the moment!