Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

marno21

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

As an aside, I am amused remembering former posters on boards around 2003 who were adamant that buses were adequate for all future demand on the Green Line. How times change.

Poster by the username of cmccarthy1 or similar ?

Lord Glentoran

marno21 wrote: »

Poster by the username of cmccarthy1 or similar ?

Ishmael Whale, and another whose name escapes me, but used Legolas from The Lord of the Rings film as their avatar.

Sam Russell

Mod: Off topic posts deleted. Read the title.

madbeanman

I’m scared to post but here goes....


I was wondering about ownership of the new line. As far as I am aware that the NTA is in charge of pricing on Dublin Bus Services, Go Ahead and Bus Eireann (as well as private operators operating public routes).

Has there been anything announced about the operation of the line? Perhaps it is far too early.

salmocab

madbeanman wrote: »

I’m scared to post but here goes....


I was wondering about ownership of the new line. As far as I am aware that the NTA is in charge of pricing on Dublin Bus Services, Go Ahead and Bus Eireann (as well as private operators operating public routes).

Has there been anything announced about the operation of the line? Perhaps it is far too early.

It will surely go out to tender like the luas.

corm500

Just to save me from drifting through 517 pages, Is there a rough start and finish date for the project? or is it all still pie in the sky?

marno21

corm500 wrote: »

Just to save me from drifting through 517 pages, Is there a rough start and finish date for the project? or is it all still pie in the sky?

Presently looking like a 2022 start and a 2027/8 finish.

madbeanman

salmocab wrote: »

It will surely go out to tender like the luas.

Hmm could someone like Iarnród Éireann come on board to operate it and just call it dart underground? I know Dart Underground is a completely separate thing atm.

Bray Head

madbeanman wrote: »

Hmm could someone like Iarnród Éireann come on board to operate it

IÉ could bid to run it. Chances of them being successful are close to zero.

In the late 90s a wholly separate procurement and licensing system was set up so that IÉ would not run the Luas.

In my view the model works very well. IÉ is not a terribly well run company (although not as badly run as other parts of the CIÉ group).

In any case, you would probably want a firm with experience of running metros in other countries.

salmocab

madbeanman wrote: »

Hmm could someone like Iarnród Éireann come on board to operate it and just call it dart underground? I know Dart Underground is a completely separate thing atm.

Very unlikely they’d get it, there may be a rebrand but can’t see it becoming dart u/g. It’s likely to stay as the metro I would think with the hope that in the future there would be 2/3 full metro lines along with dart u/g out a bit further.

MJohnston

Why would they want to hobble a potentially successful project by rebranding it as DART?

madbeanman

salmocab wrote: »

Very unlikely they’d get it, there may be a rebrand but can’t see it becoming dart u/g. It’s likely to stay as the metro I would think with the hope that in the future there would be 2/3 full metro lines along with dart u/g out a bit further.

I’m speaking from a place of ignorance asking the question but I’m just wondering if metro link (which I think is a silly name) was branded as something more familiar to people would they be less likely to see it as something objectionable? Because a metro is new and different but an underground Dart is just the dart underground lol
I know it sounds like a super basic way of thinking but I would imagine there is a tiny grain of truth to it if it was psychologically researched.
I’m not saying it would solve the gym issue or the Fianna issue or the overpass issue but it might create a more good will.

Also to me it would make the most sense to call it Luas underground (or like the yellow Luas line or whatever), because it links up with the Luas.

I find it so weird that in a city so small that there are a gajillion different public transport systems/operators

Qrt

madbeanman wrote: »

Also to me it would make the most sense to call it Luas underground (or like the yellow Luas line or whatever), because it links up with the Luas.

I find it so weird that in a city so small that there are a gajillion different public transport systems/operators

I’ve always thought that about the Luas thing, people will continue to call the southern section of the Metrolink the Luas for a long time regardless. Considering the Luas is run more like a metro than a tram in many ways, it does make sense. Hannover comes to mind, I think Brussels and Köln are similar, where many of the U-Bahn lines are just really frequent trams.

cgcsb

madbeanman wrote: »

I’m scared to post but here goes....


I was wondering about ownership of the new line. As far as I am aware that the NTA is in charge of pricing on Dublin Bus Services, Go Ahead and Bus Eireann (as well as private operators operating public routes).

Has there been anything announced about the operation of the line? Perhaps it is far too early.

Not sure why you're scared???

It's way too early to be talking about operators at this stage. The state will own the line, stations and trains without doubt. The operator won't be selected until much closer the opening date.

Metrolink is a not like luas or DART though, because it will most likely be a driverless system. The main purpose of tendering out services is that the staffing, rostering and politics of trade unions is distanced from the state. If the driver count is 0, then it's possible TFI could operate the service directly, with security staff and maintenance staff contracted out to private firms but there'd be no other transport operator as such.

cgcsb

madbeanman wrote: »

Hmm could someone like Iarnród Éireann come on board to operate it and just call it dart underground? I know Dart Underground is a completely separate thing atm.

No not really

corm500

marno21 wrote: »

Presently looking like a 2022 start and a 2027/8 finish.

"Concerned residents" have been known to hold up even the smallest of projects for years. Is there any concern that nimbyism might hold the project up?

cgcsb

madbeanman wrote: »

I’m speaking from a place of ignorance asking the question but I’m just wondering if metro link (which I think is a silly name) was branded as something more familiar to people would they be less likely to see it as something objectionable? Because a metro is new and different but an underground Dart is just the dart underground lol
I know it sounds like a super basic way of thinking but I would imagine there is a tiny grain of truth to it if it was psychologically researched.
I’m not saying it would solve the gym issue or the Fianna issue or the overpass issue but it might create a more good will.

Also to me it would make the most sense to call it Luas underground (or like the yellow Luas line or whatever), because it links up with the Luas.

I find it so weird that in a city so small that there are a gajillion different public transport systems/operators

I don't think branding has a bearing on public consultation. Metrolink is the project name, not the brand name. I'd imagine it'll just be called the metro when it's operational. DARTunderground was to be the project name of another project, not the operational name. If DART underground were built as planned it'd be branded as 'DART'.

Similarly we seen the 'Luas Cross City' being built recently, but when operational, it's just the 'luas'.

It's not unusual for Cities to have several 'brands' of transport based on what those modes physically are. For example in most Spanish cities you have:
El Tram, Metro and Cercanais(equivalent to DART).

In Germany you have: Strassenbahn(equivalent to luas), U-bahn(metro) and S-Bahn(DART)

This is standard because you're differentiating between the type of vehicle the passenger can expect.


Finally, DART is associated with CIÉ in the public consciousness and has negative connotations due to striking, poor customer interaction and general inefficient use of resources(using commuter trains on intercity routes and vice versa because it suits the staff).

cgcsb

Qrt wrote: »

I’ve always thought that about the Luas thing, people will continue to call the southern section of the Metrolink the Luas for a long time regardless. Considering the Luas is run more like a metro than a tram in many ways, it does make sense. Hannover comes to mind, I think Brussels and Köln are similar, where many of the U-Bahn lines are just really frequent trams.

I'd think that because the vehicles and station layout will look significantly different that the change in language will change quite quickly. For example, pedestrians crossing tracks will be gone, platforms will be higher(closer to a DART style layout) and you'll have wider trams/trains. There's another interesting one, is it a tram or a train? have the lines been blurred too much?

madbeanman

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think branding has a bearing on public consultation. Metrolink is the project name, not the brand name. I'd imagine it'll just be called the metro when it's operational. DARTunderground was to be the project name of another project, not the operational name. If DART underground were built as planned it'd be branded as 'DART'.

Similarly we seen the 'Luas Cross City' being built recently, but when operational, it's just the 'luas'.

It's not unusual for Cities to have several 'brands' of transport based on what those modes physically are. For example in most Spanish cities you have:
El Tram, Metro and Cercanais(equivalent to DART).

In Germany you have: Strassenbahn(equivalent to luas), U-bahn(metro) and S-Bahn(DART)

This is standard because you're differentiating between the type of vehicle the passenger can expect.


Finally, DART is associated with CIÉ in the public consciousness and has negative connotations due to striking, poor customer interaction and general inefficient use of resources(using commuter trains on intercity routes and vice versa because it suits the staff).

Im gonna ignore the bolded bit not because I disagree but because its subjective and I have no way of verifying it.

Thanks for the clarification though. I hope they come up with branding and design that integrates as best as possible with the existing public transport infrastructure. I feel as though you can have an overarching brand that is lets people know what they are going to have to ride. International practice is not always best practice.

MJohnston

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think branding has a bearing on public consultation.

[...]

Finally, DART is associated with CIÉ in the public consciousness and has negative connotations due to striking, poor customer interaction and general inefficient use of resources(using commuter trains on intercity routes and vice versa because it suits the staff).

I suspect these two facts are contradictory! I do think the low opinion of CIE services would actually bring about more opposition during the public consultation.

It's definitely the worst regarded transport mode in Ireland:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dart-passengers-commuters-survey-3848499-Feb2018/

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

I suspect these two facts are contradictory! I do think the low opinion of CIE services would actually bring about more opposition during the public consultation.

It's definitely the worst regarded transport mode in Ireland:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dart-passengers-commuters-survey-3848499-Feb2018/

Branding generally isn't discussed at this early stage and I don't think it has an impact in public consultation. I think CIE operating it would damage consumer confidence if it were to happen in the future though.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

If the driver count is 0, then it's possible TFI could operate the service directly, with security staff and maintenance staff contracted out to private firms but there'd be no other transport operator as such.

Highly unlikely.

Even if it has no drivers, Metrolink will have over a dozen stations, close to a hundred thousand passengers a day, and a big fleet of rolling stock.

You will need lots of employees to work on fleet management, maintenance, finance, station maintenance, etc.

Transdev Ireland has 250 staff to operate the Luas. I would think no more than half are drivers.

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

Highly unlikely.

Even if it has no drivers, Metrolink will have over a dozen stations, close to a hundred thousand passengers a day, and a big fleet of rolling stock.

You will need lots of employees to work on fleet management, maintenance, finance, station maintenance, etc.

Transdev Ireland has 250 staff to operate the Luas. I would think no more than half are drivers.

True, but would the contract be given to a 'transport operator' to provide security and cleaning to stations and to provide mechanical maintenance. It was my understanding that many (most?) transport operators actually subcontract their security, cleaning and mechanical services out anyway. So this being Ireland's first driverless service, just contracting out cleaners, security and mechanical separately could make sense, and just carry out any administration needed in the NTA office.

The driverless system in uncharted territory in Ireland, so it's worth re-evaluation how the service is tendered.

Bray Head

cgcsb wrote: »

So this being Ireland's first driverless service, just contracting out cleaners, security and mechanical separately could make sense, and just carry out any administration needed in the NTA office.

What do you think Transdev's non-driving staff do?

Every organisation with complex tasks needs managers and administrators. Even (perhaps especially) if there is lots of procurement from other firms.

The chance of Metrolink being directly run by the NTA is close to zero.

Sam Russell

Who will operate the Sandyford depot? It will be part Metrolink and part Luas. It would make sense if both Metrolink and Luas were operated by the same outfit.

Is the Luas contract up for renewal before Metrolink is due to start?

cgcsb

Bray Head wrote: »

What do you think Transdev's non-driving staff do?

Administration I'd imagine.

Bray Head wrote: »

Every organisation with complex tasks needs managers and administrators. Even (perhaps especially) if there is lots of procurement from other firms.

The chance of Metrolink being directly run by the NTA is close to zero.

Perhaps but something to consider anyway given the unique nature of the service.

Qrt

MJohnston wrote: »

I suspect these two facts are contradictory! I do think the low opinion of CIE services would actually bring about more opposition during the public consultation.

It's definitely the worst regarded transport mode in Ireland:
https://www.thejournal.ie/dart-passengers-commuters-survey-3848499-Feb2018/

IMO the DART's low rating stems from the congestion on the lines and lack of rolling stock. Luas, being a completely segregated format mode with no conflicting traffic, isn't really a fair comparison.

If they do stick with the metro name, I at least hope they spell it Meitreo.

D.L.R.

Tram lines and Metro lines should not have the same branding.

MJohnston

Qrt wrote: »

IMO the DART's low rating stems from the congestion on the lines and lack of rolling stock. Luas, being a completely segregated format mode with no conflicting traffic, isn't really a fair comparison.

If they do stick with the metro name, I at least hope they spell it Meitreo.

I mean, it's a fair comparison in the sense that the comparison was literally "which is less popular".

Shedite27

D.L.R. wrote: »

Tram lines and Metro lines should not have the same branding.

I'd disagree. Public transport is public transport, the sooner we get to integrated ticketing the better, integrated branding is a key part of that IMO. Should be able to take a 90min ticket from Bus to Luas to Metro if you want.