Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

riddlinrussell

salmocab wrote: »

Ranelagh? Do you mean Rathfarnham?

I almost definitely did, my knowledge of much of Dublin is spotty at best, must check maps when commenting!

marno21 wrote: »

Forget cheap - the main reason Metro South is being built, that is SSG-Ranelagh-Sandyford, is because demand forecasts for the future show that it's a paramount scheme to keep up with demand on the Luas Green Line

The Irish Times coverage on the Luas Green Line congestion in December is anecdotal evidence of this - reports of passengers having to take a Luas out to get a Luas back in to town already - and it's only 2019 now before Cherrywood is fully operational and whatever other minor distributed growth there is along the line.

I would agree the numbers justify it marno, but I definitely think its the 1/2 combo of; will be required within 10 years, and cheap as chips (relatively) that is the reason this is the route they want to start with.

tom1ie

riddlinrussell wrote: »

You've managed to combine the extra cost of the Metro to Rathfarnham with the complaints of overserving a single route into one truly atrocious proposal.

Luas to Metro conversion is happening because its cheap to do and any alternative sensible (not just... stopping in the city centre) metro will have an extra few billion tacked on to the cost.

I'm behind the current idea as it gets a functional metro built, wedging the door for future lines by (hopefully) showing it to be a good model of PT in Dublin.

Metro 2 - Rathfarnahm/Knocklyon to [Insert underserved northside area here] should be planned to start essentially as soon as this is completed so the expertise gathered for this one is kept around (Although probably vanishingly unlikely that will actually happen)[/QUOTE]

Won’t happen as it’s not in the transport strategy. Apparently a bus is good enough for the worst public transport black spot in the country, as a buisness case just can’t be made for it. Forget about trying to provide citizens with appropriate pt, there has to be an appropriate cba for it :eek:

Sam Russell

Mod: Can you take discussion of Metro II and Metro III to the appropriate thread. If it is not in the Metrolink documentation then it does not have a place here.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057932940

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057870902

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Can you take discussion of Metro II and Metro III to the appropriate thread. If it is not in the Metrolink documentation then it does not have a place here.



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057932940

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057870902

Sorry Sam but I would argue neither of those are suitable for discussion of Future metro routes, one is supposed to be discussing the merits of Metro 1 including the green line upgrade and the other is proposing alternative routes for Metro 1. There is no thread for discussing the future of Metro in Dublin beyond metrolink currently and no updates or changes to the metrolink documentation. If this thread is for news updates only then I will accept the need for a "Future of Metro in Dublin/Ireland" thread.

tobsey

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sorry Sam but I would argue neither of those are suitable for discussion of Future metro routes, one is supposed to be discussing the merits of Metro 1 including the green line upgrade and the other is proposing alternative routes for Metro 1. There is no thread for discussing the future of Metro in Dublin beyond metrolink currently and no updates or changes to the metrolink documentation. If this thread is for news updates only then I will accept the need for a "Future of Metro in Dublin/Ireland" thread.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860430

riddlinrussell

tobsey wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860430

Didn't see that one, apologies Sam, thanks tobsey.

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sorry Sam but I would argue neither of those are suitable for discussion of Future metro routes, one is supposed to be discussing the merits of Metro 1 including the green line upgrade and the other is proposing alternative routes for Metro 1. There is no thread for discussing the future of Metro in Dublin beyond metrolink currently and no updates or changes to the metrolink documentation. If this thread is for news updates only then I will accept the need for a "Future of Metro in Dublin/Ireland" thread.

Mod: If you have a problem with mod instructions, the use either PM or report the post.

You can always open a new thread, if that is the basis of the problem.

Marcusm

marno21 wrote: »

Forget cheap - the main reason Metro South is being built, that is SSG-Ranelagh-Sandyford, is because demand forecasts for the future show that it's a paramount scheme to keep up with demand on the Luas Green Line

The Irish Times coverage on the Luas Green Line congestion in December is anecdotal evidence of this - reports of passengers having to take a Luas out to get a Luas back in to town already - and it's only 2019 now before Cherrywood is fully operational and whatever other minor distributed growth there is along the line.

It’s also the fact that continuing the tunnel beyond SG means interference with the Green itself can be reduced, ie it won’t need to be entirely closed for 10 years and used as a parking place for the tunnel boring and ancillary machines.

strassenwo!f

Marcusm wrote: »

It’s also the fact that continuing the tunnel beyond SG means interference with the Green itself can be reduced, ie it won’t need to be entirely closed for 10 years and used as a parking place for the tunnel boring and ancillary machines.

It's certainly true that continuing the tunnel beyond the city centre would reduce the disruption in the city centre. And in the cities whose rail development I've been fortunate to see or watch or have looked at, that's certainly the way they've done it. Getting under the core of the city, and a bit beyond - for easier future development - seems to be pretty much the done thing.

I don't think this current metrolink proposal is the way to do that, given that it won't make any noticeable difference to journey times into or out of town on the southside, and it won't provide rail transport to any new areas on the southside of Dublin.

Indeed, as I understand it, if the proposal for a tunnel to a location beyond Dunville Avenue goes ahead, it will actually reduce the number of areas on the southside which have direct access to a rail service, because the Beechwood stop would disappear.

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's certainly true that continuing the tunnel beyond the city centre would reduce the disruption in the city centre. And in the cities whose rail development I've been fortunate to see or watch or have looked at, that's certainly the way they've done it. Getting under the core of the city, and a bit beyond - for easier future development - seems to be pretty much the done thing.

I don't think this current metrolink proposal is the way to do that, given that it won't make any noticeable difference to journey times into or out of town on the southside, ...

Can you do a table or something to show why you think that times (from, say Windy Arbor to O'Connell St) won't be quicker on Metrolink compared to the Luas?

Indeed, as I understand it, if the proposal for a tunnel to a location beyond Dunville Avenue goes ahead, it will actually reduce the number of areas on the southside which have direct access to a rail service, because the Beechwood stop would disappear.

That is a very puzzling statement. What makes you feel this would be the case?

CatInABox

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is a very puzzling statement. What makes you feel this would be the case?

One of the tunnel options involves the removal of the Beechwood luas stop, which is where I believe strassenwo!f is coming from.

It's only half the story though, the Luas stop would be replaced with a metro stop, so no one would lose service.

That option isn't their preferred option either, so it's unlikely that they'd remove the station.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Can you do a table or something to show why you think that times (from, say Windy Arbor to O'Connell St) won't be quicker on Metrolink compared to the Luas?

No, I don't think we need a table. It would be marginally quicker - a couple of minutes or so. The vehicles can't travel of their full speed, because they've got a number of stations to stop at: Windy Arbour, Milltown, Cowper, etc. I reckon they might make a saving of 2-3 minutes between Sandyford and the city over what the LUAS is doing.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is a very puzzling statement. What makes you feel this would be the case?

It shouldn't be puzzling. If the proposed tunnel goes beyond Dunville Avenue, then it seems obvious that the Beechwood stop would not be in use on the metro.

If I'm coming from Cherrywood, wanting to go to Parnell Street (probably the Dominick Stop?), or to Broadstone, or Cabra, or Broombridge?

I remind you that I can currently do that directly, as I can directly into the centre of the city.

The original plan with this metro was that I could get on at Cherrywood, change at Sandyford to the metro, then change again at Charlemont to the LUAS - presumably they envisaged some kind of escalator to bring people between the 'going underground' metro and the overground LUAS, at Charlemont.

I struggle to see how that's going to be feasible, given the canal, but it might be doable.

With the proposal to build the tunnel beyond Dunville Avenue, I would get on the tram at Cherrywood to travel to Sandyford, change onto the metro, (bypassing the former Beechwood stop), get off at the underground Charlemont stop, go up the escalator, and back onto the tram.

Have the costs of the necessary escalator arrangement described above been included in the metrolink costs?

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, I don't think we need a table. It would be marginally quicker - a couple of minutes or so. The vehicles can't travel of their full speed, because they've got a number of stations to stop at: Windy Arbour, Milltown, Cowper, etc. I reckon they might make a saving of 2-3 minutes between Sandyford and the city over what the LUAS is doing.

A saving of more than 10 minutes is likely because city centre traffic is avoided.

It shouldn't be puzzling. If the proposed tunnel goes beyond Dunville Avenue, then it seems obvious that the Beechwood stop would not be in use on the metro.

If I'm coming from Cherrywood, wanting to go to Parnell Street (probably the Dominick Stop?), or to Broadstone, or Cabra, or Broombridge?

I remind you that I can currently do that directly, as I can directly into the centre of the city.

The original plan with this metro was that I could get on at Cherrywood, change at Sandyford to the metro, then change again at Charlemont to the LUAS - presumably they envisaged some kind of escalator to bring people between the 'going underground' metro and the overground LUAS, at Charlemont.

...

With the proposal to build the tunnel beyond Dunville Avenue, I would get on the tram at Cherrywood to travel to Sandyford, change onto the metro, (bypassing the former Beechwood stop), get off at the underground Charlemont stop, go up the escalator, and back onto the tram.

What trip have you got in mind here? Going from where to where?

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

A saving of more than 10 minutes is likely because city centre traffic is avoided.

I was basically thinking of a journey between Sandyford and the South city.

Around 22-23 minutes on the southside, as far as I remember, with the LUAS. Possibly 25 with the metro?

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What trip have you got in mind here? Going from where to where?

I think, if you read my post, you should be able to see what I am saying. It shouldn't be difficult.

salmocab

Moving the portal out doesn’t affect the amount of people that can get to the city center without changing everyone outside sandyford has to change once and everyone within can go directly to the city. That’s assuming that we aren’t going to lose a station but even then the current green line stations are close enough to each other anyway that it wouldn’t affect too many people.

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I was basically thinking of a journey between Sandyford and the South city.

Around 22-23 minutes on the southside, as far as I remember, with the LUAS. Possibly 25 with the metro?



I think, if you read my post, you should be able to see what I am saying. It shouldn't be difficult.

I think maybe you are deliberately talking in riddles, but:

If I'm coming from Cherrywood, wanting to go to Parnell Street (probably the Dominick Stop?), or to Broadstone, or Cabra, or Broombridge?

If that is what you mean then you would save 10 or 20 minutes (off-peak or peak) by getting the Metro as far as O'Connell St. You could change to the Luas there.

There would be little sense in changing to the Luas at Charlemont unless you were going to Harcourt St.

jd

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Indeed, as I understand it, if the proposal for a tunnel to a location beyond Dunville Avenue goes ahead, it will actually reduce the number of areas on the southside which have direct access to a rail service, because the Beechwood stop would disappear.

Not necessarily, eg one of the options given is for both a Luas and Metro stop at Beechwood.







Take a look at http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-2/metrolink-1-gl-tie-in-options-appraisal-report.pdf (again??)

strassenwo!f

salmocab wrote: »

Moving the portal out doesn’t affect the amount of people that can get to the city center without changing everyone outside sandyford has to change once and everyone within can go directly to the city. That’s assuming that we aren’t going to lose a station but even then the current green line stations are close enough to each other anyway that it wouldn’t affect too many people.

It is safe to say that if the tunnel portal is south of Dunville Avenue that the Beechwood stop/station will disappear. There are no gradients achievable which would allow it to stay.

So, if I'm living in or around Dunville Avenue, and I've currently got a LUAS stop very close by, in the future I've got to walk to the Cowper station for a journey into town which is now overall going to be longer, how is this metro an improvement for me? When I eventually get to the Cowper station, I then have a metro journey into town which is very marginally quicker than my LUAS journey used to be.

Overall, it's slower, because of the reduction in the number of areas of the southside which are served by the metro.

And, of course, it's not just me in my hypothetical home on or near Dunville Avenue. I, unfortunately, would have a longer journey into town, but everybody further south isn't going to have a noticeably quicker one.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I think maybe you are deliberately talking in riddles, but:

What?

I, as always, am asking a genuine question. I think you, perhaps, are not taking enough time to read posts.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If that is what you mean then you would save 10 or 20 minutes (off-peak or peak) by getting the Metro as far as O'Connell St. You could change to the Luas there.

There would be little sense in changing to the Luas at Charlemont unless you were going to Harcourt St.

Fine, let's make it easier and keep it to the southside. I work in part of that busy swathe of the south city between St. Stephen's Green and the canal, and I live south of Sandyford. Let's say I work in the Harcourt Centre, one of the highest density employment centres in Dublin. I currently use the LUAS to bring me directly to the Harcourt stop, which is right opposite my office.

Under this new system I would take the LUAS to Sandyford, then change onto the metro. Where would I then change back onto the LUAS to bring me to Harcourt Street? Will there be a station at Ranelagh or Charlemont, with escalators or steps or a lift to get me back onto the LUAS to the Harcourt stop?

Or will I have to travel all the way to St. Stephen's Green on the metro, then take an escalator, stairs or a lift, and then a walk across one entire side of St. Stephen's Green to get to a LUAS heading out of the city to get to the Harcourt LUAS stop?

Like the person living near Dunville Avenue in the previous post, it's hard to see how this is an improvement.

strassenwo!f

jd wrote: »

Not necessarily, eg one of the options given is for both a Luas and Metro stop at Beechwood.







Take a look at http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-2/metrolink-1-gl-tie-in-options-appraisal-report.pdf (again??)

Thanks for that post.

If I'm getting it correctly from the document, there would be a station box broadly under the current Beechwood LUAS stop, and the portal would be somewhere south of that, between the Beechwood and Cowper stops on the current LUAS. Is that right?

So, I would get on the LUAS at Cherrywood, change to a metro at Sandyford, get off again at Beechwood, get on an escalator there (or use the stairs, or a lift) and then take a LUAS to bring me to the Harcourt stop.

How, in my guise as the previous poster, is this an improvement over my current direct journey to the Harcourt Centre?

strassenwo!f

Of course, it would be quite costly to build a metro station box at Beechwood, with all the links (escalators, lifts, stairs) necessary for connection to the LUAS, but if the space is available, maybe it could be done.

That would certainly be a relatively welcome scenario where the proposed metro wouldn't actually reduce the number of locations served by rail on the southside of the city.

Bray Head

I follow this thread with huge interest, and when I occasionally post I try to keep it short and to the point.


At the moment I am wading through over a thousand words which are at best obtuse, at worse plain wrong, and always over-written.


May I make a polite appeal to frequent posters to keep the thread useful and interesting?

Shedite27

Bray Head wrote: »

I follow this thread with huge interest, and when I occasionally post I try to keep it short and to the point.


At the moment I am wading through over a thousand words which are at best obtuse, at worse plain wrong, and always over-written.


May I make a polite appeal to frequent posters to keep the thread useful and interesting?

Here here,

This thread used to be one of the first I read when I log on, some genuine discussions about the intracicies of the route and system. It's now mainly dreamworld scenarios, with the odd "Scandanavia can do it" and "we can't organize anything in Ireland" thrown in

strassenwo!f

Of course, Bray Head, don't forget you also throw in the occasional plain wrong stuff yourself, with your recent recount of your experience of the 'gates' at Dunville Avenue.

soirish

Is there a detailed, high definition Metrolink route map? The one I have is https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2018/03/metrolink-3.png

antoinolachtnai

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Thanks for that post.

If I'm getting it correctly from the document, there would be a station box broadly under the current Beechwood LUAS stop, and the portal would be somewhere south of that, between the Beechwood and Cowper stops on the current LUAS. Is that right?

So, I would get on the LUAS at Cherrywood, change to a metro at Sandyford, get off again at Beechwood, get on an escalator there (or use the stairs, or a lift) and then take a LUAS to bring me to the Harcourt stop.

How, in my guise as the previous poster, is this an improvement over my current direct journey to the Harcourt Centre?

Why not just continue to Charlemont, and walk the six-minutes odd to the Harcourt Centre? You could get on the luas, certainly, but it's a lot of palaver to go a few hundred yards.

There would be a considerable saving. Firstly, the tram to Sandyford would be more frequent than it is today because its frequency would no longer be set in relation to city traffic.

That would save you around 2 minutes.

Second, you would be able to get no the first tram that arrived. This is not the case today at peak times.

That would save you 10 minutes.

The trip from Sandyford to City Centre would be faster, because there is no waiting for lights. The frequency will be higher too, so at peak times you will more or less step off the tram and onto a train ready to depart.

That would save you a minute or two.

You would have a more dependable journey time than you have today.

marno21

Would there be any physical restrictions on running Metro vehicles as far as Brides Glen at current Luas frequency?

salmocab

marno21 wrote: »

Would there be any physical restrictions on running Metro vehicles as far as Brides Glen at current Luas frequency?

There are several at grade crossings along that stretch, don’t know about the tracks, would presume they have the same clearances etc not sure if they were designed to take heavier rail though.

strassenwo!f

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why not just continue to Charlemont, and walk the six-minutes odd to the Harcourt Centre? You could get on the luas, certainly, but it's a lot of palaver to go a few hundred yards.

There would be a considerable saving. Firstly, the tram to Sandyford would be more frequent than it is today because its frequency would no longer be set in relation to city traffic.

That would save you around 2 minutes.

Second, you would be able to get no the first tram that arrived. This is not the case today at peak times.

That would save you 10 minutes.

The trip from Sandyford to City Centre would be faster, because there is no waiting for lights. The frequency will be higher too, so at peak times you will more or less step off the tram and onto a train ready to depart.

That would save you a minute or two.

You would have a more dependable journey time than you have today.

Yes, that could work. I'd get on a tram at Cherrywood, change onto a metro at Sandyford, then get out at your proposed metro stop at Charlemont and walk the last few minutes to my job in the Harcourt Centre.

It's certainly not an improvement over my current journey, but I could do it, and the extra walking would probably do me good. The heart, and stuff.

Though I read somewhere - indeed on this very thread, thanks to the poster jd - that they're thinking of having a metro/LUAS interchange at Beechwood, not at Charlemont.

How's that going to improve my journey?

Rulmeq

marno21 wrote: »

Would there be any physical restrictions on running Metro vehicles as far as Brides Glen at current Luas frequency?

I've said before that I think they should continue across brewery road (they're elevating the line at Stillorgan anyway), and follow the old Harcourt alignment to join the luas at Carrickmines (and then continue the line to Bray, or wherever they want to hook up with the Dart)