Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Grandeeod

Nothing has changed and it may be a very very long time before it does. I have been of the opinion that ML will not be built any time soon. I know DU will never be built. It's soul destroying. The NCH will be the ultimate bullet.

hmmm

A lot of this opposition seems to be from NIMBYs in very posh low-density housing around the inner suburbs worried about noise and increased frequency of tram/metro. Naturally they'll leap on any excuse to oppose the upgrade.

With the thousands of houses and apartments being built in Sandyford/Carrickmines direction which will need a metro to avoid gridlock, the government needs to face this opposition down sharpish.

Alternatively, let's build lots of high-rise apartments in Ranelagh, Beechwood etc. and people can walk/cycle to work. More social housing would be great too, I can suggest a few locations that could do with a better cultural mix.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

You would struggle to make that up in fairness. The leader of a suposedly environmentalist party opposing high capacity, electric powered mass transit. This would be in the cartoon section of the German tabloids if it were in Germany.

Well the Green Party in Germany when in government managed to get their Nuclear plants shutdown, leading to more coal plants and more pollution :rolleyes:

And of course Eamon Ryan is responsible for promoting Diesel cars when he was in government.... :rolleyes:

bk

CatInABox wrote: »

An Taoiseach is giving some thought to actually splitting the Metrolink project into North and South elements, according to the DublinLive.ie*. Apparently he came out with this at the sod turning photo op for the new runway.

Damn, I only mentioned that possibility over on the other thread last week!

What it would actually mean is that the North Side section would get done. The South Side section would get cancelled because of the opposition and nothing Metro wise gets built on the south side.

Then 10 years out, people on the Green line will be screaming in anger, as no one north of Sandyford can get on the full trams and ask why the south side section wasn't done.

Eventually the south side section will get done, 10 to 20 years later and at WAY more cost.

Basically a repeat of the Luas Cross City situation :mad:

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

Damn, I only mentioned that possibility over on the other thread last week!

What it would actually mean is that the North Side section would get done. The South Side section would get cancelled because of the opposition and nothing Metro wise gets built on the south side.

Then 10 years out, people on the Green line will be screaming in anger, as no one north of Sandyford can get on the full trams and ask why the south side section wasn't done.

Eventually the south side section will get done, 10 to 20 years later and at WAY more cost.

Basically a repeat of the Luas Cross City situation :mad:

Here's an alternative view BK. The South Side section will be cancelled. Then the focus will be on the North Side section, which brings us right back to MN and over a decade ago. The North Side section won't proceed either because new issues will arise amid nimbyism and more political interference. Add in potential Brexit implications, a change of Government and the NCH debacle.

10 to 20 years later we will still be BS'ing ourselves about a Metro.

Luas Cross City is a mere Creche compared to this.

I want to see all this stuff built, but until there is a real and coherent independent voice speaking out on behalf of it as opposed to the well intentioned ramblings on forums like this, the same old crap will continue. I type this with the utmost of respect to you and posters here, but let's be honest with ourselves, it's all still going around in the usual circles.

hmmm

Other than LCC, I can't remember a single transport initiative in this country which wasn't welcomed by people after it was built. Local politicians are going to oppose this, and because of the nature of our political system they almost have to be seen doing this, but they will get cover from the party system thanks to the massive and clear benefits of the project to Dublin as a whole - no-one is going to resign if this goes ahead.

Muahahaha

If they abandon the south side element of ML then how are the going to turn around to go back north? Presumably it would have an effect on potential max frequencies too?

tom1ie

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they abandon the south side element of ML then how are the going to turn around to go back north? Presumably it would have an effect on potential max frequencies too?

Run metros at really crap frequency and have a set of points for metros to change track and go in “reverse”.
An Irish solution to an Irish problem :mad:

salmocab

tom1ie wrote: »

Run metros at really crap frequency and have a set of points for metros to change track and go in “reverse”.
An Irish solution to an Irish problem :mad:

Is going in reverse not the plan anyway? Like the luas does but with the added bonus of no driver switching ends?

Dats me

@Grandeeod, I know you said you're retired but I'm sure the Dublin commuter coalition thing would welcome everything you have to add! I posted the link above, I'm following them on twitter and it's nice to see in fairness

bk

Muahahaha wrote: »

If they abandon the south side element of ML then how are the going to turn around to go back north? Presumably it would have an effect on potential max frequencies too?

Well ideally they would do a big turning loop under Stephens Green as was proposed for Metro North. That would maintain maximum frequency. The downside is that you have to dig up half of Stephens green to build it and it would be very costly. Likely almost as costly as the Green Line tie in, but with non of the benefits :rolleyes:

That is why the green line tie-in was such a relatively cheap and easy option. It saves on cost and complexity elsewhere while upgrading the Green Line.

The other option would be a crossed line turnback. Simpler and cheaper, but definitely would lead to much lower frequency times.

Actually now that I think of it, they might go with this option. 60m or even 90m HFV with a 3 minute frequency would still be much higher capacity then the Green line and possibly enough for the first 20 years of operation. They would then hope that by the time they need to increase frequency, folks on the Green line would have lost their minds in frustration of not being able to get on the Luas for the past 10 years and would be screaming for the South side Metro upgrade.

A south side Green Line would then be sold as two benefits, an upgrade to frequency and capacity on the Northern Metro line and turning the Green line into a Metro.

All stupid of course, we should just do it right first.

jd

bk wrote: »

The other option would be a crossed line turnback. Simpler and cheaper, but definitely would lead to much lower frequency times.

Actually now that I think of it, they might go with this option. 60m or even 90m HFV with a 3 minute frequency would still be much higher capacity then the Green line and possibly enough for the first 20 years of operation. They would then hope that by the time they need to increase frequency, folks on the Green line would have lost their minds in frustration of not being able to get on the Luas for the past 10 years and would be screaming for the South side Metro upgrade.

If they did this they would have to tunnel far enough to both
1. allow sufficient trams to be able to switch back
2. and beyond that do a tie inwith the Green Line without too much disruption to "Metro North"

The TBM would probably end up near Charlemont anyway..
I wonder what is the max frequency for a crossed line turn back..?

marno21

Going by the NTA in Committees, although they don't explicitly say it, Metro South makes a significant contribution to the cost benefit ratio so it will take a significant push to get it dropped from the MetroLink project

LeinsterDub

cgcsb wrote: »

You would struggle to make that up in fairness. The leader of a suposedly environmentalist party opposing high capacity, electric powered mass transit. This would be in the cartoon section of the German tabloids if it were in Germany.

I hate the expression only in Ireland with a vengeance but seriously only in Ireland

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Other than LCC, I can't remember a single transport initiative in this country which wasn't welcomed by people after it was built. Local politicians are going to oppose this, and because of the nature of our political system they almost have to be seen doing this, but they will get cover from the party system thanks to the massive and clear benefits of the project to Dublin as a whole - no-one is going to resign if this goes ahead.

LCC has been extremely well welcome on the northside at least

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I hate the expression only in Ireland with a vengeance but seriously only in Ireland

Well, except for in Germany, as cgcsb mentioned before.

Thrashssacre

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metrolink-southside-section-is-set-to-be-abandoned-1.3800658

NIMBYs win yet again

jd

It'll be interesting to see how they can increase capacity on the Green Line in the future if this is true..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metrolink-southside-section-is-set-to-be-abandoned-1.3800658

The controversial southside section of the MetroLink rail line in Dublin is set to be abandoned due to Government unwillingness to endure a lengthy disruption to the Luas Green line, it has emerged.

In a major change to plans published last year, the line, that will for the first time connect Dublin Airport to the city centre by rail, will still run from Swords to the city, but is likely to stop north of Ranelagh at Charlemont.

The change, which will be announced next month when the National Transport Authority (NTA) is due to publish a revised route for the line, means that the Metro will not continue on to Sandyford.

prunudo

jd wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how they can increase capacity on the Green Line in the future if this is true..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/metrolink-southside-section-is-set-to-be-abandoned-1.3800658

This has to be a joke, i honestly can't believe this is being considering, the whole point of Metrolink was the fact it connected various modes of transport. The southern section didn't add that much extra per km to the overall price.
Why didn't they just stick with Metro north which from memory was almost good to go.

Can only hope that like the article in the indo yesterday these stories are just bad leaks and fingers crossed that they are only options being considered rather than fact.

lawred2

Jesus we Irish people get exactly what we deserve.

Whinging and campaigning against what would deliver a vastly improved rail service.

Well let them then think about that when the green line hasn't a space North of Dundrum in the morning..

lawred2

jvan wrote: »

This has to be a joke, i honestly can't believe this is being considering, the whole point of Metrolink was the fact it connected various modes of transport. The southern section didn't add that much extra per km to the overall price.
Why didn't they just stick with Metro north which from memory was almost good to go.

Can only hope that like the article in the indo yesterday these stories are just bad leaks and fingers crossed that they are only options being considered rather than fact.

Is it not the case MN would go ahead as planned as per that article? But the southern element of the metro would be canned.

prunudo

lawred2 wrote: »

Jesus we Irish people get exactly what we deserve.

Whinging and campaigning against what would deliver a vastly improved rail service.

Well let them then think about that when the green line hasn't a space North of Dundrum in the morning..

Problem is, the people who are complaining probably don't even use the Luas during commuting times. You've basically got residents of low rise areas holding commuters further south living in high density areas to ransom.

The impression I got was that it was going to be the northern half of Metrolink rather than the original Metro North route.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Well, except for in Germany, as cgcsb mentioned before.

Which is why I generally hate it

antoinolachtnai

The government is 'signalling' for people further out the line to make their case now.

lawred2

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The government is 'signalling' for people further out the line to make their case now.

Maybe

But they shouldn't need a competition of cases.. a plan has been designed and delivered by professional planners. This is of national strategic importance which will deliver untold benefits to the city of Dublin.

Filleting it now for political reasons would just be so disappointing.

What is it with Ireland and the fear of nimbys?

CatInABox

jd wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how they can increase capacity on the Green Line in the future if this is true..

They should run an advertising campaign telling people living Ranelagh to Dundrum to buy a bike and cycle.

MJohnston

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The government is 'signalling' for people further out the line to make their case now.

Tens of thousands of those people don't live there yet!

matrim

A counter protest in favour of MetroLink should just go and block that through road as often as they can

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The government is 'signalling' for people further out the line to make their case now.

What people? The problem is that most of those people aren’t there yet, as the developments at Carrickmines and Cherrywood haven’t even started.

The tram lengthening programme which will extend every Green Line tram to 55m will address current morning issues and should keep people happy for now which removes the immediacy in peoples’ eyes.

The question now is how to cope with the impact of those massive developments beyond Carrickmines as they come on stream in the mid-2020s while maintaining permeability across the inner section of the line.

It won’t be happening fast and south Dublin will continue to be a massive traffic jam for years to come.

CatInABox

Honestly, I'm not terribly surprised. I'd say the Childrens Hospital has every department looking at ways to reduce money while also making it seem like it's not their fault. This is a ready made excuse to reduce the amount of cash required.

As BK speculated, they'll probably do a crossover coming into Charlemont station.

They'll most likely separate out all the other parts of the upgrade into separate projects, i.e. they'll still do the bridge over St Raphaela's Rd, but it'll won't be part of the any Metrolink upgrade. Eventually, when the Metro line has been brought to Charlemont, and the Green Line is well beyond capacity, people will be begging for a capacity upgrade, and the NTA/Government can say "well, all we need to do now is tie in at Charlemont and it's pretty much done."

A few years of the people of Ranelagh, Beechwood, Cowper, Milltown, Windy Arbour and Dundrum not being able to use the Luas in the morning will change an awful lot of minds. The Rethink Metrolink people won't be able to show their faces around those parts without getting spat on at that stage.