Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Kevtherev1

Muahahaha wrote: »

I still think the scandal over the cost over runs on the National Childrens Hospital is going to run into this Metro project. We now know that construction inflation has ran at 22% over the last three years. On top of that construction unions are currently seeking a 12% pay increase for their members.

The initial €3bn costing of Metrolink is now out of date and we are currently somewhere north of €4bn. By the time the railway order comes around in a coulple of years time that it likely to be closer to €5bn. And then the media will go mad again calling it a total waste of money. €5bn odd will be politically a hard sell outside of Dublin. At least with the Childrens Hospital its being built for the entire nation, the Metrolink won't be seen in the same way in rural Ireland, most of who will still be driving to the airport anyway and will never directly benefit.

If there are any economic storms up ahead be it due to a US recession or Brexit related then I cannot see €5bn ever being santioned for this project. Hope I'm wrong but without any politicians to push it through it won't be happeneing. And if they can'tshut down a few rabble rousers in Dunville Avenue just wait and see what happens when rural Ireland gets up in arms about the cost, it will put Dunville Avenue in the ha'penny place.

All valid points made in above post. However various government have now run out of time, Dublin metros have been delayed for a quarter of a century already. We are now at the point where the costs of not building metro lines (and associated housing stock) will be equal too or more then the 5 Billion euro costs.


Like the m50 3 lane widening had to be done or the economy stalls. The Metros have to be done or the dublin economy stalls and stagnates. Our growth in infrastructure is far behind our economic growth already. All objectors must be sacrificed on the infrastructure alter immediately. CPO the **** out of them, bring in the Emergency response unit to protect the diggers if needs be. :P

Busman Paddy Lasty

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

All valid points made in above post. However various government have now run out of time, Dublin metros have been delayed for a quarter of a century already. We are now at the point where the costs of not building metro lines (and associated housing stock) will be equal too or more then the 5 Billion euro costs.


Like the m50 3 lane widening had to be done or the economy stalls. The Metros have to be done or the dublin economy stalls and stagnates. Our growth in infrastructure is far behind our economic growth already. All objectors must be sacrificed on the infrastructure alter immediately. CPO the **** out of them, bring in the Emergency response unit to protect the diggers if needs be. :P

Yes it's an investment in future economic growth that results in a tangible asset to the country.

Try see it as 500 million per year not the total cost as a lump. I've spent my entire (although short) career to date during the period where this country has been paying billions in loan interest per year.

Do it now. Thank the objectors for their opinions, then plough on!

cgcsb

Muahahaha wrote: »

I still think the scandal over the cost over runs on the National Childrens Hospital is going to run into this Metro project. We now know that construction inflation has ran at 22% over the last three years. On top of that construction unions are currently seeking a 12% pay increase for their members.

The initial €3bn costing of Metrolink is now out of date and we are currently somewhere north of €4bn. By the time the railway order comes around in a coulple of years time that it likely to be closer to €5bn. And then the media will go mad again calling it a total waste of money. €5bn odd will be politically a hard sell outside of Dublin. At least with the Childrens Hospital its being built for the entire nation, the Metrolink won't be seen in the same way in rural Ireland, most of who will still be driving to the airport anyway and will never directly benefit.

If there are any economic storms up ahead be it due to a US recession or Brexit related then I cannot see €5bn ever being santioned for this project. Hope I'm wrong but without any politicians to push it through it won't be happeneing. And if they can'tshut down a few rabble rousers in Dunville Avenue just wait and see what happens when rural Ireland gets up in arms about the cost, it will put Dunville Avenue in the ha'penny place.

If Dubliners cant get to work and live affordably then <snip> don't get subsidies, it's that simple.

Mod: Be courteous please.

Hotblack Desiato

If Dubliners cant get to work and live affordably then rural dwellers don't get subsidies, it's that simple.

Too right. But apparently we're the enemy, or something :rolleyes:

Could we have a Dubexit and become the Singapore of the western world? We'd need to have strict control of our internal border though...

antoinolachtnai

There is no real way to know what construction costs will be like in 2025. There are just too many variables.

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly which is why we need to set up a national infrastructure agency and commit to fund it with a % of GDP each and every year. If something runs over budget we either slow it down a bit or slow the delivery of something else down, but we don't do the "build all the things - oops recession - build nothing" boom and bust cycle our politicians have favoured.

Consonata

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Exactly which is why we need to set up a national infrastructure agency and commit to fund it with a % of GDP each and every year. If something runs over budget we either slow it down a bit or slow the delivery of something else down, but we don't do the "build all the things - oops recession - build nothing" boom and bust cycle our politicians have favoured.

Disagree, primarily because that's what is causing the HSR in California so much headaches, they're slowing it down, costing the state way more money as a result. Money should be allocated and spent, and if it overruns, that should be covered to. Not doing so means that instead of having infrastructure you have a relic and a lot of half paid receipts.

Idbatterim

Come hell or high water , metrolink should be built. Throw in the m20 cork to limerick, for the country. To stop the Dublin gets everything bs! Those schemes should go ahead no matter what , even come another recession. The other competing projects are jokes in comparison ...

If the government had balls, building during recession would be the best time. But why spend on our pathetic infrastructure at opportune times, when you can prop up the world class welfare rates etc ... the welfare careerists might seek greener pastures I suppose, lol!

Zebra3

Don’t forget about propping up zombie banks and bankrolling politicians welfare.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep to the topic - just Metrolink posts - see post #1.

Thank you.



Edit - Despite the above, posters are still posting off topic posts. These posts have been moved. Further such posts will be deleted and action taken. Metrolink only - does not include posts about Dart Underground, or Busaras. There is a thread covering this.

CatInABox

Dublin Metro are at it again, banging the drum for a magical, mystical Metro that'll link everywhere and anywhere, but get this, it won't cause any disruption unlike the Metrolink project. See here.

As so much of the track is underground, no GAA pitch or apartment block or such will be demolished or disrupted in the building of the network.

They seem to have mastered the art of making scrambled eggs without cracking the eggs.

The fact that this sort of stuff gets any play in the media is super depressing, I mean the guy runs this out of his house down in Galway FFS, there's literally no indication that these guys have any ability to cost this thing, never mind build it.

AlmightyCushion

CatInABox wrote: »

Dublin Metro are at it again, banging the drum for a magical, mystical Metro that'll link everywhere and anywhere, but get this, it won't cause any disruption unlike the Metrolink project. See here.



They seem to have mastered the art of making scrambled eggs without cracking the eggs.

The fact that this sort of stuff gets any play in the media is super depressing, I mean the guy runs this out of his house down in Galway FFS, there's literally no indication that these guys have any ability to cost this thing, never mind build it.

The problem is papers printing their bullshít without question.

Edit: I didn't realise the guy behind Dublin Metro actually wrote the article. Says it all really.

Idbatterim

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The problem is papers printing their bullshít without question.

Edit: I didn't realise the guy behind Dublin Metro actually wrote the article. Says it all really.

Papers are a business. What’s their biggest concern? Profit , selling papers and subscriptions. Best way to do that? Get people riled up! Sensationalist headlines...

jd

Oliver Callan having a go at Metrolink too
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3858524/oliver-callan-metrolink-costs-paschal-donohoe/

Idbatterim

God what absolute bull****. You can get from airport to city centre in twenty five minutes. Lol , yeah with no traffic. You would wonder though , would it make sense to build a road tunnel from port tunnel to n4 at heuston. Two or three lanes each direction and charge cars a lot at peak times or one lane in it as bus lane at peak times ... have a stop somewhere around Tara street etc to connect with metro link. Something has to be done about the quays gridlock ...

salmocab

jd wrote: »

Oliver Callan having a go at Metrolink too
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3858524/oliver-callan-metrolink-costs-paschal-donohoe/

He used the moronic argument that Metrolink is about linking the airport and ignoring the rest of the stops and people that it benefits. People like this won’t be happy until we climb back into the trees and fling our faeces at each other.

cgcsb

I stopped reading at 'rail link to the airport'. commentators should be required to submit a copy of the Engineering or urban planning degree to get column inches on the topic.

madbeanman

cgcsb wrote: »

I stopped reading at 'rail link to the airport'. commentators should be required to submit a copy of the Engineering or urban planning degree to get column inches on the topic.

This is fairly horrendous. Democracy requires a voice being given to a wide range of people, even those that you don't like, agree with, and/or think are dumb. If you ignore people than you get political angst that is dangerous and leads to bad scapegoats.

BonnieSituation

madbeanman wrote: »

This is fairly horrendous. Democracy requires a voice being given to a wide range of people, even those that you don't like, agree with, and/or think are dumb. If you ignore people than you get political angst that is dangerous and leads to bad scapegoats.

The issue is that these are the ONLY ones getting such airtime/space.

People are tired of experts apparently.

cgcsb

madbeanman wrote: »

This is fairly horrendous. Democracy requires a voice being given to a wide range of people, even those that you don't like, agree with, and/or think are dumb. If you ignore people than you get political angst that is dangerous and leads to bad scapegoats.

I don't actually believe in democracy anyway.

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The issue here is the success of the LUAS. The Irish Times, the local residence opposition groups and the politicians hopping on a bandwagon to get elected all leverage the refrain of 'shur isn't the LUAS great, why change it?'. Any closure to it (exaggerated timelines or no) is leveraged as a great evil; and it is sold to everyone as a 'fairness' issue. Those on the LUAS already have THE solution, let's deliver something elsewhere.

Were these arguments to win out, and the upgrade is abandoned then upon the failure of the current Green Line due to inevitable capacity issues will this topic turn, potentially forever. An affluent influential base of society will know they were knowingly sold something completely incorrect and - as they are crammed on a cattle cart (of which they can barely squeeze on every third offering of) they will scream for an upgrade. And the next time nimbyism rears its head we'll have a very simple example to point to, that is easily explained and understood.

The problem in this instance is the vast majority of green line commuters don't realise that their service is mortally wounded, a ticking time bomb. They just use it as is and are fine with it and don't want any change or disruption to it.

I think you're mistaken in thinking the majority of NIMBY heads even use the Luas at all. They are most likely retired and drive most places.

Muahahaha

CatInABox wrote: »

Dublin Metro are at it again, banging the drum for a magical, mystical Metro that'll link everywhere and anywhere, but get this, it won't cause any disruption unlike the Metrolink project. See here.

They seem to have mastered the art of making scrambled eggs without cracking the eggs.

The fact that this sort of stuff gets any play in the media is super depressing, I mean the guy runs this out of his house down in Galway FFS, there's literally no indication that these guys have any ability to cost this thing, never mind build it.

Whats Dublin Metros angle here? Their website doesn't make it clear, just bangs on about how they can create six underground lines, 62km of track and 50+ new stations. It seems like total pie in the sky stuff when they are claiming it would be all privately funded but they don't mention how. And who are is Jed Van de Poll and Cormac Rabbite, they claim a lot of bone fides but google searches don't throw up much information bar Linkedin profiles and their own articles in the media. Its got a real smack of monorail about it.

edit- just listened to the Newstalk interview with Jed van de Poll. In it he claims that these six underground routes can be built by 2025 at a cost of €9bn ! He also claims that Madrid built 110km of underground in 7 years

cgcsb

Muahahaha wrote: »

Whats Dublin Metros angle here? Their website doesn't make it clear, just bangs on about how they can create six underground lines, 62km of track and 50+ new stations. It seems like total pie in the sky stuff when they are claiming it would be all privately funded but they don't mention how. And who are is Jed Van de Poll and Cormac Rabbite, they claim a lot of bone fides but google searches don't throw up much information bar Linkedin profiles and their own articles in the media. Its got a real smack of monorail about it.

They're the kind of lads who bankrupted the Albanian government in the 80s and created all the 'boat people'. Sound blokes.

salmocab

Well they reckon they can do all that extra work with less disruption. I’d like to see their plans but this is the sort of thing that would delay the metro and not happen anyway.

ncounties

jd wrote: »

Oliver Callan having a go at Metrolink too
https://www.thesun.ie/news/3858524/oliver-callan-metrolink-costs-paschal-donohoe/

Isn´t that what the Sun is for though? Sensationalist diatribe against everything, without much basis in fact or reality?

prunudo

The sooner the better the revised plans come out the better, the longer the delay the more air time and column inches these dreamers are given.
And when it is released I hope the nta bombard every news outlet with proper facts and sell the project to all the doubters

lucernarian

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Minister for Transport is fighting for the NIMBYs, not against them!

I'm talking about Eamonn Ryan and those especially interested on the impact around Charlemont..... That was obvious in my defence. Shane Ross' most outspoken point so far was about tunnelling further, and leaving what are basically his constituents south of Beechwood station without a service for a period of a year or more.

Muahahaha wrote:

I still think the scandal over the cost over runs on the National Childrens Hospital is going to run into this Metro project. We now know that construction inflation has ran at 22% over the last three years. On top of that construction unions are currently seeking a 12% pay increase for their members.

The initial €3bn costing of Metrolink is now out of date and we are currently somewhere north of €4bn. By the time the railway order comes around in a coulple of years time that it likely to be closer to €5bn. And then the media will go mad again calling it a total waste of money. €5bn odd will be politically a hard sell outside of Dublin. At least with the Childrens Hospital its being built for the entire nation, the Metrolink won't be seen in the same way in rural Ireland, most of who will still be driving to the airport anyway and will never directly benefit.

If there are any economic storms up ahead be it due to a US recession or Brexit related then I cannot see €5bn ever being santioned for this project. Hope I'm wrong but without any politicians to push it through it won't be happeneing. And if they can'tshut down a few rabble rousers in Dunville Avenue just wait and see what happens when rural Ireland gets up in arms about the cost, it will put Dunville Avenue in the ha'penny place.

I completely agree, and would go further that the Government cherrypicked what CBA to publish for their outline route proposal - see https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/academic-casts-doubt-on-costs-of-wonderful-metro-north-36617529.html

I've made this point for a year now and have been mostly shot down for it, as though I wouldn't like something like this scheme to go ahead or making unfounded criticism.

Even data and experience from Metro North, and the study which ruled it out on flawed modelling and assumptions, are off limits on this thread (which if anyone sees the very first post, is pretty damn ironic). And somehow to everyone's surprise, the square peg into a round hole that is Charlemont is being taken off the table along with everything south. There are great aspects of this scheme to the north (especially Phibsboro) and the whole northern corridor of metrolink has no rail access *at all* except for red line luas, so I'm hoping we can at least get that built.

lucernarian

jvan wrote: »

The sooner the better the revised plans come out the better, the longer the delay the more air time and column inches these dreamers are given.
And when it is released I hope the nta bombard every news outlet with proper facts and sell the project to all the doubters

Ah yeah, the NTA who didn't even give support for this project (but did for others) right before the 10 year infrastructure programme? https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/transport-authority-board-did-not-review-government-metro-announcement-1.3445850

Sam Russell

lucernarian wrote: »

I'm talking about Eamonn Ryan and those especially interested on the impact around Charlemont..... That was obvious in my defence. Shane Ross' most outspoken point so far was about tunnelling further, and leaving what are basically his constituents south of Beechwood station without a service for a period of a year or more.


I completely agree, and would go further that the Government cherrypicked what CBA to publish for their outline route proposal - see https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/academic-casts-doubt-on-costs-of-wonderful-metro-north-36617529.html

I've made this point for a year now and have been mostly shot down for it, as though I wouldn't like something like this scheme to go ahead or making unfounded criticism.

Even data and experience from Metro North, and the study which ruled it out on flawed modelling and assumptions, are off limits on this thread (which if anyone sees the very first post, is pretty damn ironic). And somehow to everyone's surprise, the square peg into a round hole that is Charlemont is being taken off the table along with everything south. There are great aspects of this scheme to the north (especially Phibsboro) and the whole northern corridor of metrolink has no rail access *at all* except for red line luas, so I'm hoping we can at least get that built.

There is no new published plan to do anything south of SSG other than the original 'Emerging Route' plan.

There are rumours, but no published plan. The Miniser said he would not entertain any plan that would close the GL Luas for 4 years, or even two years. The original plan would close the line for a few months - 6 at most.

So wait for the plan. It is coming - real soon.

antoinolachtnai

lucernarian wrote: »

I completely agree, and would go further that the Government cherrypicked what CBA to publish for their outline route proposal - see https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/academic-casts-doubt-on-costs-of-wonderful-metro-north-36617529.html

I've made this point for a year now and have been mostly shot down for it, as though I wouldn't like something like this scheme to go ahead or making unfounded criticism.

Even data and experience from Metro North, and the study which ruled it out on flawed modelling and assumptions, are off limits on this thread (which if anyone sees the very first post, is pretty damn ironic). And somehow to everyone's surprise, the square peg into a round hole that is Charlemont is being taken off the table along with everything south. There are great aspects of this scheme to the north (especially Phibsboro) and the whole northern corridor of metrolink has no rail access *at all* except for red line luas, so I'm hoping we can at least get that built.

The MetroLink business case is going to naturally be a lot stronger than MN because the line is a lot longer but the costs are almost the same.

The MN business case was hairy for sure, and the Northside of the ML route does have some problems.

But the ML business case is worlds apart from the MN business case. The longer route and the incorporation of the green line upgrade changes things completely.

You are quite right that if south of Charlemont were to be taken out of the equation (which it hasn’t) then the business case becomes very weak.