Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

LeinsterDub

Is there any realistic alternative to College Green?

CatInABox

Synode wrote: »

Anyone know the building she mentions in the replies to the tweet and why it wasn't used

https://twitter.com/gretatumiatti/status/1109171043455954945?s=19

It's just south of Tara St station, across Townsend St. No idea why it hasn't been used, but I assume that there's a good reason. It's not like the NTA want to go looking for a fight, they'd prefer the easy life if they could get it.

cgcsb

....There is always the Irish Times building, I mean it's not like its much use to anyone presently.

salmocab

CatInABox wrote: »

It's just south of Tara St station, across Townsend St. No idea why it hasn't been used, but I assume that there's a good reason. It's not like the NTA want to go looking for a fight, they'd prefer the easy life if they could get it.

There surely is as they would certainly go for the easier option if it was as simple as either would do.
I’ve said a few times that these people certainly have a legitimate gripe and should be dealt with fairly but not at the expense of the project being delayed. They should certainly end up better off than they are now either through a sale at a level well above market or a temporary move followed by return to a new apartment that’s bigger and better than the old one.

Dats me

salmocab wrote: »

There surely is as they would certainly go for the easier option if it was as simple as either would do.
I’ve said a few times that these people certainly have a legitimate gripe and should be dealt with fairly but not at the expense of the project being delayed. They should certainly end up better off than they are now either through a sale at a level well above market or a temporary move followed by return to a new apartment that’s bigger and better than the old one.

I agree with this.

And I don't think the amount of space between that building and the tracks is enough to fit a 90m station (need well over 100m to get 90m platform. To get the station parallel to the rail line you'd need the adjacent building too. The building behind has a smack of "protected" from it but I haven't checked, if not that could be a runner? I attach a screencap showing the lack of space, hope it's clear.

Also, @cgsb you were saying it could be May until publication, is it looking like next week is now the best bet?

Screencap: https://imgur.com/a/olOCiXx

cgcsb

Dats me wrote: »

I agree with this.

And I don't think the amount of space between that building and the tracks is enough to fit a 90m station (need well over 100m to get 90m platform. To get the station parallel to the rail line you'd need the adjacent building too. I attach a screencap showing the lack of space, hope it's clear.

Also, @cgsb you were saying it could be May until publication, is it looking like next week is now the best bet?

Screencap: https://imgur.com/a/olOCiXx

Can't say with certainty but I think March is off the cards because, as of yet, there is nothing releasable. April is a possibility

Dats me

cgcsb wrote: »

Can't say with certainty but I think March is off the cards because, as of yet, there is nothing releasable. April is a possibility

Maybe for once they'll be cute and leave it until after the elections. It would be once thing if some politicians in NIMBY areas were willing to stand up for it but they should just try and keep it off the agenda.



It's a real pity, they seemed so determined to drive on with it this time last year.

jd

cgcsb wrote: »

Can't say with certainty but I think March is off the cards because, as of yet, there is nothing releasable. April is a possibility

There is a briefing of public representatives on Tuesday, they have already told residents of College Gate that the station box will necessitate the demolition of their homes. If the release of hard information extends beyond a week of Tuesday they are heading towards a buffer!

CatInABox

jd wrote: »

There is a briefing of public representatives on Tuesday, they have already told residents of College Gate that the station box will necessitate the demolition of their homes. If the release of hard information extends beyond a week of Tuesday they are heading towards a buffer!

Yes, I can't imagine that they'd do all that without a finalised plan. It certainly seems like we'll get the Preferred Route next week.

Dats me

It would appear so, but there's a chance the briefing and Oireachtas Committee is just to update and say, sorry we're looking at a costing for taking it to Rathfarnham, but here's what we have so far: 2 month Green Line closure etc etc

Kevtherev1

I would agree likely the preferred route next Wed 27th March from 10 am. TDs being briefed on Tuesday. NTA meeting the oireactous transport committee on Wednesday 10 am committee room 4. Presumably this will also be streamed live.


At the following link click committee room 4 stream. View committee schedule for 27th and then stream CR4



https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/

Idbatterim

What is the point in costing to rathfarnham? To just totally write that option off the agenda can be the only reason ...

“I doubt it would be allowed happen that way but it should really in an instance of a building being knocked and rebuilt all over again. In any case it has to be College Gate that gets knocked, Hawkins and Apollo are no longer alternatives, those ships have sailed.” Why not? Those kips have stood there for decades , then the bust hits and they are now just about to be demolished and progress is still glacial. Knocking that many apartments and people’s homes is a scandal! Given the state owned sites within spitting distance!

I hate hypocrisy and if we were residents of that block, some of you would be singing a different tune! There is a several acre site of **** and dirt sitting there for over a decade , nothing built on it !

jd

Idbatterim wrote: »

What is the point in costing to rathfarnham? ...

To stop Eamon Ryan Bullsh!tting on about it while he plays with his crayons.

Idbatterim

jd wrote: »

To stop Eamon Ryan Bullsh!tting on about it while he plays with his crayons.

Yeah as I expected

LeinsterDub

jd wrote: »

To stop Eamon Ryan Bullsh!tting on about it while he plays with his crayons.

He's been told numerous times that's it's at least 2.5 billion hasn't stopped him

Idbatterim

I dont know if putting it where I suggest is possible, but IF it were, over my dead body would they be taking my home from me, due to their outrageous incompetence. The residents should simply say they arent having it and will lock themselves into their apartments etc. I'd love to see how the planners for this would feel if it was their home that was being demolished!

Idbatterim

Now take a look at this and tell me it isnt closer to tara and more suitable! A bloody big site with NOTHING on it!

Dats me

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont know if putting it where I suggest is possible, but IF it were, over my dead body would they be taking my home from me, due to their outrageous incompetence. The residents should simply say they arent having it and will lock themselves into their apartments etc. I'd love to see how the planners for this would feel if it was their home that was being demolished!

In this picture where it says "vending machine" is where they're going to move the DART station to, there will be seamless interchange between DART and metro.

Apollo house site is being redeveloped, Google it, and is a street away from Tara St. I'm not an engineer so I don't know if a tunnel without above ground disruption would be possible.

It's incredibly naive to assume that the NTA don't care. This is being done because it is the only option that would be safe given Tara Street will become the busiest rail interchange in the country with MetroLink, you couldn't have thousands of people crossing the road at peak times like that. Look at the Route Options Assesment document on metrolink.ie to see what options they considered for Tara St.

prunudo

I did not realise that the Irish Times office was located there. I had presumed it was still on D'olier st.
It explains an awful lot of their narrative lately.

Idbatterim

al

It's incredibly naive to assume that the NTA don't care. This is being done because it is the only option that would be safe given Tara Street will become the busiest rail interchange in the country with MetroLink, you couldn't have thousands of people crossing the road at peak times like that. Look at the Route Options Assesment document on metrolink.ie to see what options they considered for Tara St.

connect it with a tunnel... of course you cant have people crossing the road! jesus this is a 3 billion + project. do you have a link for the ROA?

so they are building new platforms for Tara street and moving its location?

Dats me

Idbatterim wrote: »

al

connect it with a tunnel... of course you cant have people crossing the road! jesus this is a 3 billion + project. do you have a link for the ROA?

so they are building new platforms for Tara street and moving its location?

I do! http://data.tii.ie/metrolink/alignment-options-study/study-1/metrolink-volume-1-main-report.pdf

There's a massive amount of information on metrolink.ie, there must be thousands of pages of studies and reports there. They've put years of work into this I'd be amazed if they'd walk into the controversy at Tara St. if they had other options that would deliver a high quality result. As you said it's a €3bn project, can't have poor quality stations at the end.

Exactly yeah, you can find drawings for it in the report I linked above. It'll probably help with passenger movement because those coming from the quays will be at one end of the DART platform and those coming from metro will be at the other end.

Idbatterim

I just zoomed out on google maps from street view a bit, you then get a fantastic aspect and overview of the area, not just overhead from satellite type image. We are all speculating here, but if my suggestion is feasible, I think what they are proposing beggars belief!

They might think its the easier thing to do, and maybe it is from an engineering point of view. But look at the farce that has been created over dunville avenue. Talking about tens of millions plus to solve that farce and on the other hand, they want to demolish what? 70+ apartments, when there is a vacant site across the road?!

There's a massive amount of information on metrolink.ie, there must be thousands of pages of studies and reports there. They've put years of work into this I'd be amazed if they'd walk into the controversy at Tara St. if they had other options that would deliver a high quality result. As you said it's a €3bn project, can't have poor quality stations at the end.

you'd think so, but look at na fianna and the dunville avenue issue...

Muahahaha

Dats me wrote: »

It would appear so, but there's a chance the briefing and Oireachtas Committee is just to update and say, sorry we're looking at a costing for taking it to Rathfarnham, but here's what we have so far: 2 month Green Line closure etc etc

If the only thing the committee meeting does next week is correct the lie spouted by politicians and the media that the Green line would be closed for four years then it will be progress.

ricimaki

Idbatterim wrote: »

... They might think its the easier thing to do, and maybe it is from an engineering point of view...

Here's my thinking on this, from a purely engineering point of view. This is all my opinion, and could very well be wrong. A lot of this is based on a previous comment I made months ago, about how moving a station a few meters can result in a kilometre of tracks moving, and the knock-on effects of this.

Here's a rough drawing I did in google earth of the current station location, and the tracks heading to O'Connell street. It's not exact, but matches closely to the plans previously published.


I've highlighted the location of the Spire. Notice how close the tracks will run to this, roughly 20M underground. I don't know how deep the Spire's foundations go, but I can certainly say you don't want to be tunnelling too close to them, and certainly not directly underneath. Other buildings in the area might have some relatively deep foundations too.

First, lets look at the blue station box. I've drawn it parallel to the red station, partially covering some of the site you mentioned. This complicates the connection to Tara street, needing additional pedestrian access to be built. The station could be moved more east or west, but would always require the demolition of the Irish Times building, and most likely the apartments too. The tracks connecting to SSG should be OK, but there could some issues to the north. The river will now be crossed at a different location, and may be deeper (or shallower). Even if its only 50cm deeper, the depth of the tracks will likely have to change for sufficient clearance. The curvature of the track would have to change. It won't be possible to simply shift the tracks down without getting close to the Spire. Doing an 's' would be possible, but would reduce the running speed of trains in service.

I've also drawn the green station, which fits fully within the site you mentioned. The angle of the station had to change quite a bit for this. There is still the issue of connecting to Tara St rail station, but perhaps the most difficult thing here is connecting to the O'Connell St station. Some relatively tight curves would be needed (as far as I can make out, the tightest on the line, with the exception of some of the tie-in options with the green line). This possibly could work, but would again result in reduced running speeds. A work-around for this issue is to move the O'Connell St station, but then that will have knock-on effects to the rest of the northern line...

Any angles between the Blue and Green stations drawn would encounter similar issues again. Another point of note is in the environment constraints drawings, there is a change in soil type near where the blue/green stations are. I'm unsure what effect this would have, but at a guess, it would need a more expensive TBM...

I suppose the point of all of this is that the NTA have specifically chosen this route for a reason. I'm sure it is possible to move the station, but it will have knock-on effects to other portion's of the line. They will have evaluated multiple options, evaluated it's pros and cons, and selected the most suitable route.

Muahahaha

Very good post rikimaki. Aside from problems of curvature of the line they also would not want thousands of people crossing over Tara St at peak times. Its already a very busy pedestrian route as it is and the metro would make things a lot busier. Also as an interchange it should be quick and easy to move from Dart to Metro and vice versa. It makes sense for the underground to be directly underneath the very train lines it is interchanging with, not two hundred metres away. I'm sure the engineers are competent people who considered a number of options and their solution is the single best one. The residents of College Gate are invariably annoyed at the prospect of loosing their homes and are pointing at other sites saying why not there. The reason of 'why not there' has likely already been discounted by the engineers for very good reasons.

MJohnston

Other things to consider:

1. Closing Tara Street for station construction is not an option.
2. Closing Townsend Street for station construction would be highly undesirable.
3. The College/Apollo/Hawkins block is already under development, likely construction will have started before Metrolink even gets a railway order. Halting that to move the Metro station there would be hugely expensive. Not a reason to rule it out, but it's something that has to be understood by anyone suggesting it as an alternative.
4. Given that Markievicz fitness centre is owned by DCC, I'm guessing they probably own that land entirely? In that case, it would be significantly easier and cheaper to acquire for this.
5. Station orientation has to accommodate a workable curve connecting the station itself to O'Connell Street station and the Stephen's Green East station.
6. Consider the actual footprint of the station excavation required. I've seen a lot of "alternative suggestions" that use a much too small site.

Idbatterim

Possibly some of you are concluding what you want to conclude. If I was a resident of that block , I wouldn’t necessarily trust or believe what they say. I’d let them know it wasn’t going to be easy, if indeed they think it’s going to be a serious battle and there are other options, they might change tact. You wouldn’t know unless you tried ...

I mean I’d see what happened at na fianna and dunville, which are mickey mouse disruption in comparison to moving home etc and I’d fancy my chances ...

If this curvature issue is problematic, they count move it back to ssg West. It’s posdibit the best option for engineers etc, maybe they went with it and see the reaction to the demolition of the block

MJohnston

If you're moving the Stephen's Green station back to the west of the Green, then you have to weigh up the massive disruption that'll cause to the park itself, as well as the Green Line.

Dats me

Idbatterim wrote: »

Possibly some of you are concluding what you want to conclude. If I was a resident of that block , I wouldn’t necessarily trust or believe what they say. I’d let them know it wasn’t going to be easy, if indeed they think it’s going to be a serious battle and there are other options, they might change tact. You wouldn’t know unless you tried ...

I mean I’d see what happened at na fianna and dunville, which are mickey mouse disruption in comparison to moving home etc and I’d fancy my chances ...

If this curvature issue is problematic, they count move it back to ssg West. It’s posdibit the best option for engineers etc, maybe they went with it and see the reaction to the demolition of the block

This station has been in the public realm for a year now. The residents were understandably up in arms when the route came out. The NTA have slent a year designing out controversial aspects of the plan. Yet this one stays because it has to.

I know it's a long document, but you still clearly haven't read the alignments options report that I linked yesterday where they explain in great detail the decisions they made.

Sam Russell

Could they not provide an alternative building to the apt block and leisure centre to be constructed before the demolition, so the move out is directly into the new accommodation. It does not need to be that close - perhaps a few hundred metres away, but as close as feasible.

Just an idea.

Also the St Raephaela's Road bridge could be built before even the railway order is obtained, as it is needed now anyway.