Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

DWCommuter

BrianD wrote: »

This is unbelievable stuff and dated only in past few months. Where is our central plan for rail transport development? We now have two state bodies effectively competing with each other and duplicating resources which are now very scarce.

If this goes DART spur ahead then it will serve a big chunk of Metro Norths suburban customers which makes the MN project less attractive. If MN goes ahead then the DART spur is pointless as the Clongriffen-Airport DART catchment area will be well served by MN on one side and the existing DART on the other.

There's nothing in the Iarnrod Eireann correspondence that doesn't make sense in isolation. However, it can't be considered in isolation when there are other bodies, such as the RPA, who have other proposals that are advancing.

Perhaps Leo can do us a favour and come up with a definitive rail map for Dublin and a timetable for each of the components.

I did once predict here that MN and DU would not be built and we would end up reinventing the wheel if money ever became available again. What you are witnessing here are the seeds of this. Unfortunately the political attitude to public transport in Ireland is far to easy to predict.

The DTA that was diluted into an NTA was supposed to solve all this shaping up. 30 years after its proposal we are still struggling to grasp any semblance of coherent planning.

Aard

It's the perennial Irish attitude: "Try to please everybody, end up pleasing nobody."


Please developers with inappropriate land rezoning. Please the urban fringes with a non-segragated tram. Please the Northside with a metro. Please the West with a useless railway track. Please Meath with a Dart line. Please old people with free travel. All the while the fund for the one thing that would sort out a lot of capacity issues (need I even mention it?) gets anywhere near started. It's that everybody has to stick their oar in, and worst of all they're all listened to. Camel, horse, blah blah blah.


[Dart Underground mysteriously becomes Luas Interconnector. (Now I realise why they stopped calling it "the Interconector"...) I'd love to be a fly on the wall of those meetings.]


That would all be fine... it it were part of an overall strategy. But no. It's just impulsive pandering. There's no patience. No "50 Year Plan". We love handing out a few fur coats before most people even have a pair of shoes.

Zebra3

Aard wrote: »

I've often thought of this myself. All local opposition aside, do you think it'd work WRT reducing congestion on the mainline? I imagine that since fewer trains would be branching off to Howth that more of the line gets used for continuous service. If that's the case, then all that stands in the way is tradition.

I fail to see how it wouldn't work. (Yeah, IE, I know!!).

If they time the connections well, especially by timing the shuttle service to meet services that run HJ-city centre (and reverse) non-stop, it could be a success.

I don't doubt there'd be opposition to it, but it time someone with some balls took decisions with the wider good in mind.

mgmt

mgmt wrote: »

Would it be possible to widen the Loop Line Bridge to 3 tracks between Conolly and Pearse St Stations. Maybe redesign it during the rebuild to make it less ugly.

Found the report CIÉ commissioned into this option (and many other options), if anyones interested.


Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review - ARUP Report - From 2000:
http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Environmental_Impact_Statement-EIS_and_Environmental_Impact_Statement_Non-Technical_Summary-NTS/Volume_4%E2%80%93EIS_Appendices/02_Background/A2.1.pdf (7mb)

sdanseo

It's worth saying that in my opinion a heavy rail spur is much, much more favourable than MN - but only if they can pull off at least three rails to Clongriffin. Otherwise, it just can't be 10% efficient.

Metro North can go ahead then in time, but the quickest project to get up and running would be an IÉ led one (and in fairness, and this coming from a huge IÉ critic, they have managed the Midleton and Dunboyne spurs quite well and on schedule pretty much.)

Cool Mo D

mgmt wrote: »

Found the report CIÉ commissioned into this option (and many other options), if anyones interested.


Dublin Suburban Rail Strategic Review - ARUP Report - From 2000:
http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/assets/files/downloads/Environmental_Impact_Statement-EIS_and_Environmental_Impact_Statement_Non-Technical_Summary-NTS/Volume_4%E2%80%93EIS_Appendices/02_Background/A2.1.pdf (7mb)

A very interesting document.

It suggests many possibilities, besides projects we know about, like the interconnector.

It suggests that rebuilding platforms 5,6,7 at Connolly to provide 4 through platforms, with better signalling is possible. Also, grade seperation of DART and Maynooth line trains is possible.

An extra through platform at Pearse station is another possible project, combined with the 3rd platform at Grand Canal dock to separate terminating trains from DARTs at peak hours.

When it comes to widening the Northern line, it suggests that 4 tracks can be installed Connolly to north of Raheny, 3 tracks from there to Howth Junction, and 4 tracks from there to portmarnock are possible without tunnelling.

It strongly recommends a terminating plaform or turnback siding at Malahide, rather than the current arrangement. (built after this document was written).

It suggests 3 or 4 tracking Skerries to Balbriggan for Belfast trains to overtake Drogheda commuter trains.

Along with a lot more stuff...

The biggest pity is that all costs are blacked out.

Aard

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't doubt there'd be opposition to it, but it time someone with some balls took decisions with the wider good in mind.

I could sympathise to a certain extent. Right now Howth travellers can go past Pearse on one train, whereas if the Shuttle + DartU go ahead they'll have to make two connections for the same trip. Granted it's not such huge hardship if the Shuttle is coordinated and if mainline Dart frequencies are high.

sdonn wrote: »

It's worth saying that in my opinion a heavy rail spur is much, much more favourable than MN - but only if they can pull off at least three rails to Clongriffin. Otherwise, it just can't be 10% efficient.

Is there enough space as-is for 3 tracks? If not, do you think the CPO would be a considerable block? I imagine that IE know they'll eventually need to build another track or two there, but their hesitation would stem from legal interruptions.

lods

Lidl plan in Swords approved

PLANS by the German food discounter Lidl to open a new outlet next to the JC food supermarket and Dunnes Stores clothing store in Swords, Co Dublin, have been approved by An Bord Pleanála.
Fingal County Council had previously granted permission for the new store, which will be developed on a site currently occupied by a petrol filling station, convenience shop and carwash, along with a single-storey detached house.

Objectors to the Lidl project included JC Savage Supermarkets, Castlefarm Estates and residents along Rathbeale Road which runs from Swords to Ashbourne.

An inspector with An Bord Pleanála had recommended that the discount store should be refused permission, arguing that it would be a “visually dominant and overbearing form of development” and would overshadow the adjoining properties.

In addition to the standard financial contributions to be paid to the planning authority, the German store will also have to contribute almost €700,000 towards the proposed Metro North rail service.

What happens to all the money if it doesn't go ahead? does it just go into the councils coffers?

I see the RPA are still pushing for an Autumn start on enabling works:rolleyes:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869

dubhthach

lods wrote: »

What happens to all the money if it doesn't go ahead? does it just go into the councils coffers?

I see the RPA are still pushing for an Autumn start on enabling works:rolleyes:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869

Anglo!

Underspending on the Capital budget gets reused for other things. The goverenment chronically underspent on it's Capital budget between 2000 and 2006. This is why the Motorway network was 4-5years late. By not spending back then you ended up with bigger budget surpluses which could be used to give Tax cuts/tax breaks as well as to help buy elections. In our current sitatuion though if money is not spent on Capital budget it will be used to pay for Banks/debt etc.

monument

lods wrote: »

What happens to all the money if it doesn't go ahead? does it just go into the councils coffers?

I see the RPA are still pushing for an Autumn start on enabling works:rolleyes:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/No-to-Metro-North/132969966748869

It's returned after some time, which can mean a long time. Like the EIB loan, money taken for one thing cannot be used for another.

lods

monument wrote: »

It's returned after some time, which can mean a long time. Like the EIB loan, money taken for one thing cannot be used for another.

I did think it would be hard to levy for Metro North & then just blow it on something else. although "road tax" etc etc.

Cool Mo D

lods wrote: »

I did think it would be hard to levy for Metro North & then just blow it on something else. although "road tax" etc etc.

Road tax was abolished in the 70's. You pay motor tax now. And the Government has been spending vastly more on roads than what motor tax collects over the past few years.

lods

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Road tax was abolished in the 70's. You pay motor tax now. And the Government has been spending vastly more on roads than what motor tax collects over the past few years.

There's also VRT and excise duty on petrol/diesel . As far as I can see driving around the country the only investment in roads has been in ppp motorways . Secondary roads are in poor condition.

monument

lods wrote: »

There's also VRT and excise duty on petrol/diesel . As far as I can see driving around the country the only investment in roads has been in ppp motorways . Secondary roads are in poor condition.

The motorway building projects combined alone are massive and we're still paying for them. Not all road projects built in the boom times have been PPPs, not even all motorways were PPPs. And there has been many other road upgrades / dual carriage ways / bypasses / ring roads / road widenings etc built.

The road network in general is in bits, it's not just secondary roads. While motorways are standing up fairly well -- because its mostly new and the safety issues are greater if they are left to fall into disrepair -- there's still loads of primary routes in bits in urban and rural areas.

There's massive costs involved with maintaining a road network (costs that are all too often forgotten about), and those problems and costs have risen sharply due to three major cold snaps in a row.

dowlingm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It suggests 3 or 4 tracking Skerries to Balbriggan for Belfast trains to overtake Drogheda commuter trains.

What should have been done is a reservation within the M1 land take for an 160km/h+ design rail corridor as far as J8 with the line diverging there and running around the back of Mosney to rejoin north of Laytown.

3/4 tracking is mightily expensive and disruptive and the trains using the bypass tracks wouldn't be stopping in Skerries/Balbriggan anyway. This would have also allowed Dundalk-Connolly to be kept open during times when electrification possessions were being done between Rush and Laytown.

Now there isn't a bean to do any of the above.

runway16

I've been doing a bit of nerding with google maps and earth.

It would seem to me that the path of least resistance is indeed an airport spur off the Sligo / Western Commuter line. From the Dunsink area, it has an almost uninterupted path to the airport, and whats more, such a line would also destroy much of the case for Metro West too, as it would probably follow mostly the same alignment north of the N3.

There would be some national benefits though - Sligo passengers could presumably connect onto it at perhaps Phoenix Park station, as well as Maynooth line commuters. Of course there would also be a possibility of running trains from these places direct to the airport also. Of course had IE bothered to re-open Athlone - Mullingar, so could trains from across the West of the country.....

All Crayon stuff at the moment though...

lods

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dart-airport-plan-on-track-as-metro-north-hits-the-buffers-2635349.html

Independent.ie
DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers
By Paul Melia
Tuesday May 03 2011

THE high-profile €2.5bn Metro North project is set to be shelved in favour of a 20-year-old plan to build an extension of the DART line to Dublin Airport, the Irish Independent has learned.

The Government has ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update the 1991 plan to build a 6.5km spur just after Clongriffin DART Station to the airport.

It is estimated the overground rail project would cost just €300m and provide a high-speed link-up to the city centre at a fraction of the cost of the underground Metro plan.

The move comes amid major concerns about funding the €2.5bn Metro North light-rail system, which was due to run from St Stephen's Green to Swords via the airport.

The DART extension was first mooted in 1991 by Iarnrod Eireann and Aer Rianta.

It was later suggested in 2005 as part of the Government's ambitious Transport 21 programme, but rejected at the time in favour of Metro North.

However, the Government has now ordered the rail company to revisit the plan because it is an affordable solution to providing Dublin Airport with a rail link to the city centre.

Under the revised plan, DART trains would run from Dublin Airport every 15 minutes from 5am to 1am, reaching Pearse or Connolly stations in just over 20 minutes.

The airport DART station would be built next to the airport terminals and would enable travellers from as far away as Greystones, Co Wicklow, to travel direct to the airport on trains.

Land costs would be minimal, as much of the land needed is agricultural and undeveloped, and there would be no need to buy extra trains.

Passengers numbers are expected at 10,000 a day and a park-and-ride site could be built nearby, probably close to the M1 motorway, to allow commuters from Swords to use the service to and from the city.

This and the airport terminus would be the only new stations on the line.

Total construction costs are estimated at €300m, including the cost of purchasing land, and the project could be completed in just three years. Up to 3,000 jobs would be created.

Design

"There's a lot of detailed design and a planning application needed," an Iarnrod Eireann spokesman said.

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar last week said just one of three major capital investment projects would go ahead from DART Underground (€2bn), Metro North (€2.5bn) or the link-up of the two Luas lines, called BXD.

But he also added a fourth project into the decision process -- the DART airport link.

"It is not a new proposal and has been raised before. . . However, if we cannot proceed with Metro North on the basis of cost, it may be a viable alternative," Mr Varadkar told the Irish Independent last night.

"Cost will be a very important consideration when deciding on future investments. We must ensure that any new project is affordable."

Both DART Underground and Metro North are due to be financed under Public Private Partnerships (PPP), where the private sector builds the lines and the State repays the cost over time. But sourcing funding is difficult because of the economic situation.

Mr Varadkar added: "In the absence of available PPPs, upcoming projects will have to be on a smaller scale, with costs running to hundreds of millions of euros rather than billions."

The Government has ordered a review of the capital spending programme which will be completed in the autumn, but it is understood a decision on the airport link could be made before the summer.

- Paul Melia

darkman2

I am completely and utterly against the CIE unions having a monopoly of, not one, but two links to the airport in the form of Dublin Bus and Iarnrod Éireann.


IMO Metro North is ready to go. They should support it.

etchyed

State-controlled public transport to the airport: not really a problem in any country where it's the case. Opposition to it is purely ideological.

But how on earth is the Northern Line supposed to cope with this?

markpb

Some interesting stuff there. Why are no new trains needed? Will they remove Darts from the Maynooth or Howth lines to serve it? Will the DARTs operating hours be extended to cope with the 2 extra hours that they plan to have the airport shuttle operating?

Also, how will it do the extra 6.5km and serve 2 extra stops in 20 minutes when it already takes the DART 20 minutes to serve all stops between Clongriffin and Tara St. Perhaps it will be run as an express but, in that case, there will have to be even more gaps between DARTS to leave the track clear for an express.

bk

markpb wrote: »

Some interesting stuff there. Why are no new trains needed? Will they remove Darts from the Maynooth or Howth lines to serve it? Will the DARTs operating hours be extended to cope with the 2 extra hours that they plan to have the airport shuttle operating?

Also, how will it do the extra 6.5km and serve 2 extra stops in 20 minutes when it already takes the DART 20 minutes to serve all stops between Clongriffin and Tara St. Perhaps it will be run as an express but, in that case, there will have to be even more gaps between DARTS to leave the track clear for an express.

All good questions.

I don't know if this is even possible, but maybe run Howth to Airport shuttle, with passengers from Howth or the Airport transferring at Howth Junction to the city?

MrDerp

markpb wrote: »

Some interesting stuff there. Why are no new trains needed? Will they remove Darts from the Maynooth or Howth lines to serve it? Will the DARTs operating hours be extended to cope with the 2 extra hours that they plan to have the airport shuttle operating?

Also, how will it do the extra 6.5km and serve 2 extra stops in 20 minutes when it already takes the DART 20 minutes to serve all stops between Clongriffin and Tara St. Perhaps it will be run as an express but, in that case, there will have to be even more gaps between DARTS to leave the track clear for an express.

The 20 minutes is probably 'eventual figures' for when the northern line capacity issues are sorted out i.e. a bunch of lies.

It doesn't need to be express anyway. It just needs to be connected.

As for not needing new trains and running every 15 minutes??? A bizarre claim to say the least. There are trains every 15 minutes (I think) northbound from Connolly at peak. These split to Howth and Malahide.

Other than re-routing every train to the airport, I can't see how this is achieveable, unless they're planning to take one train from the main network and shuttle a single train back and forth between Clongriffin and the airport as every second train perhaps, that way every other Malahide line train would be express to the airport, with others 'connecting' to/from the Malahide trains. Shenanigans, given that in some scenarios, one might have to change at Howth Junction and Clongriffin one station later

Does Clongriffen have an extra line/platform for such a turnback? It's a new station isn't it? To my recollection of passing it there's fields on one side upon which such a turnback facility could be built

MrDerp

bk wrote: »

All good questions.

I don't know if this is even possible, but maybe run Howth to Airport shuttle, with passengers from Howth or the Airport transferring at Howth Junction to the city?

Hmmm. More like Howth/Malahide shuttle methinks.

NuMarvel

markpb wrote: »

Some interesting stuff there. Why are no new trains needed? Will they remove Darts from the Maynooth or Howth lines to serve it? Will the DARTs operating hours be extended to cope with the 2 extra hours that they plan to have the airport shuttle operating?

Also, how will it do the extra 6.5km and serve 2 extra stops in 20 minutes when it already takes the DART 20 minutes to serve all stops between Clongriffin and Tara St. Perhaps it will be run as an express but, in that case, there will have to be even more gaps between DARTS to leave the track clear for an express.

I'm guessing that these were the old plans back in either 1991 or 2005 as the article seems to imply that IE are only now revisiting the plan, so it's unlikely that it's already finalised.

Jack Noble

Like Luas BXD, this will be nothing but a €400million PR stunt by the govt if this goes ahead. It may link Dublin airport to Connolly but that is it - it does nothing else for Dublin's medium and long-term transport needs and nothing to link up the existing, standalone rail/Luas lines.

It is the classic Fianna Fail approach - be seen to do something for the sake of doing something, it doesn't have to be the right thing.

I'm just disappointed that an FG-Lab govt that promised change is going down this route.

However, I do think it's just a kite-flying exercise - this is a 20-year-old plan that has been rejected on several occasions because of the capacity problems on the Northern line and at Connolly. Nothing has changed in the last two decades to make it a viable option. That is why it will be a PR stunt.

I am now beginning to fear that come September and the completion of this review, Metro and Dart will be abandoned as they can't be afforded now - while nothing will be built as BXD and Dart spur are not viable solutions.

The sensible option would be to delay Metro and DartU for a five years until the economy and the funding situation, public and private, have improved as they have/will have 10-year Railway Orders.

We've waited four decades for these projects, will another decade really matter if we get it right - rather than doing the easy thing for the sake of it and getting it wrong for decades to come?

thomasj

MrDerp wrote: »

As for not needing new trains and running every 15 minutes??? A bizarre claim to say the least. There are trains every 15 minutes (I think) northbound from Connolly at peak. These split to Howth and Malahide.

Other than re-routing every train to the airport, I can't see how this is achieveable, unless they're planning to take one train from the main network and shuttle a single train back and forth between Clongriffin and the airport as every second train perhaps

not neccessarily! wasnt there an order placed/being placed for extra DART carriages as part of the interconnection/electrification process.

Werent darts operating on a 5-10 minute basis at one stage? Surely as a result of frequency being reduced to 15 minutes there are less trains involved.

With regards to paths, irish rail mentioned in a kildare project piece that the resignalling of malahide gcd is nearly finished.
Wasnt the benefit of that project that more paths.

Edit: here we go!

City centre resignalling: Resignalling the section between Malahide and Grand Canal Dock to allow more trains to operate UNDERWAY, complete 2012

popebenny16

if (and as Jack rightly says above it's a big if) DART2/DART Undergound goes ahead then there is where you find your extra trains, and it also sorts out the capacity problems at Connolly to boot. Also means not need for anything as nutty as a Airport - Howth Shuttle. You will just have some DARTS going to the Airport and others going on to Balbriggan/Dundalk or whereever they finally decide to end the extended line.

So, the optimist in me says that this suggests that Leo is looking at killing off Metro North and saving DART undergound with this spur added in.

Hopefully also means the killing off of the Luas interconenctor. With DART Underground its hardly needed and in terms of costs -v- disruption and eventual benefit I think it comes a long way behind the other two projects anyway.

The pessimist by the way thinks it will be using the current DART rolling stock and that DARTS to Malahide would end up being halved for the Airport service with no DART Underground and we get Luas connector instead.

popebenny16

thomasj wrote: »

Edit: here we go!

here we dont go - Varadkar announced in the Dail at the same time as the DART spur last month that this is now pushed out to 2014.

servicecharge

While we're talking about crazy schemes: Would it not be possible to run a Luas from the airport along the m1 via elevated tracks on the median, then run it through the port tunnel to connect with the redline at the point?

Obviously you would have to steal a lane from each side of the tunnel but it is an underused resource. You could ban cars from the tunnel at peak times if necessary.

Any takers?

Aard

First Metro West, now this. We need rapid transit in the city centre, not on the outskirts. At the very least, Dart Underground should be built before any Airport spur.