Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

DWCommuter

Purely and simply in the interests of keeping people grounded in reality, I would like to repeat that MN will not be progressing. The evidence is on this forum to back it up.

I am not trolling.

Jack Noble

Interesting slide presentation on importance of Metro North to north Dublin given to Fingal County Council on Wednesday by Fingal County manager.

What I found most interesting - and depressing - is the comparison of Dublin's late-19th century/early 20th century rail infrastructure with that of the early 21st century.

They superimposed a map of Dublin in the 1920s - complete with rail (blue) and tram (red) lines over a satellite image of Dublin today.

We really do have a spectacular capacity in this county to take something good and FUBAR it.

The other lesson is - when FF get things wrong, they do so to Olympic gold standard. Thanks again, Dev and Todd - Bert and the lads had a hard act to follow but they did ya proud.

It also includes a good comparison of the relative capacities of Metro, Dart, the Luas trams and a QBC.

Here you go - have gander yourselves.

http://www.slideshare.net/RailwayProcurementAgency/fingal-county-council-presentation-on-metro-north-june-15th-2011

dubhthach

There's a 16MB version of that map from 1922-23 here: (wikipedia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png

Tbh from a Fingal point of view there's next to no difference between the two maps. As there wasn't any tram network within the Fingal area during that time.

Jack Noble

dubhthach wrote: »

There's a 16MB version of that map from 1922-23 here: (wikipedia)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pub.png

Tbh from a Fingal point of view there's next to no difference between the two maps. As there wasn't any tram network within the Fingal area during that time.

It simply goes to show what could have been if FF had a bit of vision in the 1930s-1950s - rather than slavishly following what the UK did.

The basis was there to develop a more compact city with a wholly integrated rail/tram-based public transport system - much like so many cities in Europe developed between the wars and post-1945.

But we managed to blow it not once but three times 30s-50s, 70s/80s and 2000s.

lucernarian

Wrt to FF and historical decisions, there were far bigger political priorities during the war and post-war era (i.e. housing quality) and Govt then was also mired in the isolationist policies of Dev in particular.

Also, what are you on about with "blowing it" in the 70s/80s?!

FF and FG both supported the DART which I would have seen as a proactive step even if its extent was very limited in the end and with CIE in charge. Once again, priorities came to the fore at that time and in terms of public investment, the equivalent of about €10 billion was used to fund an almost complete rebuild of our telecommunications infrastructure. To say the money was "blown" is to completely take it out of context.

I think FG and FF and the trade-union friendy Lab are all culpable for the unaccountable mess that is CIE and the dearth of attention that was given to public transport. Singling out one party strikes me as being somewhat biased. FF being around for the longest time deserve the largest portion of blame but not the only portion. The vested interests of CIE and the work practices within were regarded as nothing more than a headache by successive govts.

dubhthach

TBH the trams were still owned by a private company (DUTC) until 1945. They were only nationalised when DUTC was merged with the GSR to form CIÉ, by which stage the shutdown of Tram network was already occurring.

Jack Noble

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Wrt to FF and historical decisions, there were far bigger political priorities during the war and post-war era (i.e. housing quality) and Govt then was also mired in the isolationist policies of Dev in particular.

Of course housing was a priority but when they built the new estates that ringed the city - the likes of Donneycarney, Cabra, Finglas, Ballyfermot, Drimnagh and Crumlin - they failed to provide the services that go with it.

The switch from train and tram to bus and car was ideological as much as it was economic - we followed what they did in the UK rather than in Europe either side of WWII.

Also, what are you on about with "blowing it" in the 70s/80s?!

FF and FG both supported the DART which I would have seen as a proactive step even if its extent was very limited in the end and with CIE in charge. Once again, priorities came to the fore at that time and in terms of public investment, the equivalent of about €10 billion was used to fund an almost complete rebuild of our telecommunications infrastructure. To say the money was "blown" is to completely take it out of context.

The implementation of the Dart was botched and the EC money available to part-finance it was diverted elsewhere. And then when the economy went down the tubes, they abandoned the plan rather than mothballing it until better times.

History then repeated itself in the 1990s re the LRT plan instead of resurrecting Dart.

I think FG and FF and the trade-union friendy Lab are all culpable for the unaccountable mess that is CIE and the dearth of attention that was given to public transport. Singling out one party strikes me as being somewhat biased. FF being around for the longest time deserve the largest portion of blame but not the only portion. The vested interests of CIE and the work practices within were regarded as nothing more than a headache by successive govts.

While all parties have a degree of responsibility for the mess that is CIE, FF have been in power more often than the FG and Lab and had ample opportunities to deal reform CIE and tackle its vested interests. It failed time and time again. Bertie Ahern's approach during the last decade and a half when the money was there was to do something about Dublin's transportation system and CIE at the same time was to dither, dally and delay with the former and set up a rival agency for the latter.

What have we to show for the last 15 years - two separate, unconnected Luas lines and a lot of nice plans and colourful maps.

I'm sure DWC can give a much better account of how the Dart was botched, Luas was botched, Metro was botched and the problems with CIE and the RPA - and who is to blame.

Jack Noble

dubhthach wrote: »

TBH the trams were still owned by a private company (DUTC) until 1945. They were only nationalised when DUTC was merged with the GSR to form CIÉ, by which stage the shutdown of Tram network was already occurring.

But govt policy between 1922 and 1945 did nothing to encourage consolidation, development and expansion of tram and rail transport in that time.

If anything, it was deliberately decided to move away from both in favour of bus and car without any thought given to the long-term consequences.

While both Cumann na gGaedhael and FF share the blame for this, CG were managing the aftermath of a bitter and destructive civil war and were concentrating building and strengthening the nascent state.

FF, on the other hand, came into government at a time when the State was secure and the priority was to build and grow the economy - Dev and co made bad choices in that time which took decades to reverse. In the case of the destruction of the rail and tram systems, that damage still has been undone. And now, thanks to their successors in FF, it seems it won't be for at least another generation.

lucernarian

Have you simply ignored the parts where I talked about "other priorities"?? Surely you can understand that dealing with tenement housing and later on telecoms infrastructure and second and third level education were quite important to the two largest parties??

As far as CIE is concerned, the fact is that nothing will be done to properly deal with it purely because it's rotten from the top down and the public are more concerned with adequate hospital care and the fixing of a misfiring economy. It will take corruption on a mass scale or else a catastrophe with loss of life to really challenge CIE. Shane Ross has been one to highlight that shower in the Oireachtas but the secrecy and the complicated historical factors involved make it harder to properly uncover. Even FAS has slipped off the radar despite the comprehensive evidence to damn it.

My point is that the problem is not with the policies of one particular party, it's a combination of unfortunate realities with spending priorities consistently lying elsewhere and also that elections are simply not fought on public transport in most instances. In dealing with CIE, people are not going to talk about the misguided rivalries between Irish Rail and the RPA but they will talk about the strike action that will happen if some of the absurd work practices in Irish Rail were tackled or indeed if salaries were cut. I will add though that the leadership and example under Bertie Ahern, as head of FF, was particularly deadly to the idea of reform in semi-state bodies and to running govt. on a long-term and more visionary basis. Go back to 1987 when as Minister for Labour he simply acquiesced to wage increases for ESB workers, another semi-state then only accountable to its workers and a minister. Not much changed since:(

Jack Noble

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Have you simply ignored the parts where I talked about "other priorities"?? Surely you can understand that dealing with tenement housing and later on telecoms infrastructure and second and third level education were quite important to the two largest parties??

And my point is that they got some priorities wrong and made bad decisions which had long-term consequences.

Housing was a problem in the 20s, 30s and 40s and, TBF to Dev and FF, they got that right with the creation of the new estates - but some of that good work was lost by not serving them with decent transport links.

With a bit of forward-thinking and vision, those new estates around the city could have been developed in conjunction with the rail/tram system.

And my other point was that the switch from rail to road was ideological and based on flawed thinking in the UK. Both states have suffered long-term consequences of moving to mostly road based transport.

What we have seen in Ireland is bad planning, urban sprawls and traffic gridlock in our main cities. We have no real public transport culture among the population and we are too car dependant. Dublin is a great city but it can be bloody awful to get around at times - either by bus or car. But I'm willing to bet it was much easier to get around it in the 1920s and 1930s.

Other countries in Europe that had economic and social problems far worse than ours - as well as having to deal with the aftermaths of destruction and war - made better decisions and have prospered for it.

Here in Ireland, we consistently get politicians and governments who get priorities wrong and make bad decisions - although I would say the governments of Lemass, Haughey 87-89 (with a lot of help from FG) and Bruton are the exceptions to that rule.

And we know only too well from bitter experience that the three govts of Patrick Bartholemew Ahern were the worst in the history of the State.

As far as CIE is concerned, the fact is that nothing will be done to properly deal with it purely because it's rotten from the top down and the public are more concerned with adequate hospital care and the fixing of a misfiring economy. It will take corruption on a mass scale or else a catastrophe with loss of life to really challenge CIE. Shane Ross has been one to highlight that shower in the Oireachtas but the secrecy and the complicated historical factors involved make it harder to properly uncover. Even FAS has slipped off the radar despite the comprehensive evidence to damn it.

My point is that the problem is not with the policies of one particular party, it's a combination of unfortunate realities with spending priorities consistently lying elsewhere and also that elections are simply not fought on public transport in most instances. In dealing with CIE, people are not going to talk about the misguided rivalries between Irish Rail and the RPA but they will talk about the strike action that will happen if some of the absurd work practices in Irish Rail were tackled or indeed if salaries were cut. I will add though that the leadership and example under Bertie Ahern, as head of FF, was particularly deadly to the idea of reform in semi-state bodies and to running govt. on a long-term and more visionary basis. Go back to 1987 when as Minister for Labour he simply acquiesced to wage increases for ESB workers, another semi-state then only accountable to its workers and a minister. Not much changed since

I can't and won't argue with any of that.

The Irish people will be regretting for manys the year to come the day they set eyes on Bertie Ahern and fell for his man-o-de-peeple spiel.

However, I think the days of govt pandering to semi-state management and unions may be over. The shock to the system of the last few years has been too great and may prove cathartic. I believe this govt will take on the likes of CIE and ESB and break their stranglehold - and the people will back them in doing so. In that sense, the IMF and EU standing behind ministers and looking over their shoulders may not be too bad a thing.

Jack Noble

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/metro-plan-faces-the-buffers-after-tenders-drop-out-2677037.html

FEARS have been raised over the future of the Metro North project after it emerged that two tenders have withdrawn from the project.

The revelations came amid concerns that cancellation of the project would have "serious consequences both economically and recreationally for the greater Dublin area".

Frank Allen, chief executive of the RPA, told a meeting of Fingal Council last night that two of the four tenders withdrew support in the project due to "financial challenges".

However, he said the two remaining tenders involved in attempting to "lock in" the project are "committed to continuing with the issues ahead".

WTF?

There have only been two bidders for the last two years. The other two were eliminated earlier in the PPP tender process.

I'd love to see the full quotes from Frank Allen - me thinks the Herald have got the wrong end of the stick here.

Zebra3

Jack Noble wrote: »

The Irish people will be regretting for manys the year to come the day they set eyes on Bertie Ahern and fell for his man-o-de-peeple spiel.

I've never actually met anyone who believed that FF led media bs.

And Jack, the blame firmly lies with the Irish people who constantly voted in corrupt politicans so they could have their 3 or 4 bed semi with a nice back garden.

Jack Noble

Zebra3 wrote: »

I've never actually met anyone who believed that FF led media bs.

And Jack, the blame firmly lies with the Irish people who constantly voted in corrupt politicans so they could have their 3 or 4 bed semi with a nice back garden.

Oh I know that only to well - we reaped what we sowed.

Everyone took the goodies from FF and never gave a damn where the money to pay for it all came from.

And now the bill has come in and no one wants to pay it.

But I still believe Bertie Ahern is ultimately responsible and people have yet to realise just how much damage he and FF have done.

D.L.R.

Jack Noble wrote: »

Oh I know that only to well - we reaped what we sowed.

Everyone took the goodies from FF and never gave a damn where the money to pay for it all came from.

And now the bill has come in and no one wants to pay it.

But I still believe Bertie Ahern is ultimately responsible and people have yet to realise just how much damage he and FF have done.

Sorry to veer this off topic (does it really matter now).. but have to respond.

I don't think it was Bertie per se.. he was just the 'wurkin class' poster boy who was in the right place at the right time. If not him it would've been another greaseball FFer executing their populist doctrine, and he too would've been lauded as a hero/genius/great statesman by the drunken mindless rabble. Even Cowen would've won an election or two under such circumstances.

The boom would've happened anyway. FF merely channelled the energy of that tidal wave directly into their collective bank account, and Bertie was just a friendly face on the cover.

Zebra3

Jack Noble wrote: »

http://www.slideshare.net/RailwayProcurementAgency/fingal-county-council-presentation-on-metro-north-june-15th-2011

Interesting to see Copenhagen come out as number one.

Dublin actually done the complete opposite to their Finger Plan and actually built new developments away from railway lines since the 1960s.

There is also huge resentment in Copenhagen to the high cost of public transport which is another reason why people take to their bikes.

antoobrien

Zebra3 wrote: »

And Jack, the blame firmly lies with the Irish people who constantly voted in corrupt politicans so they could have their 3 or 4 bed semi with a nice back garden.

I think there's a lot of two faced hypocrites in this country that just want to blame everything on the government, from planning to the economy, jobs and even share prices (anybody remember the reaction to the drop eircom's share price after its flotation at the height of the telcoms boom?). I won't comment on the last 3 but as for planning it's making me rather sick to see the rose tinted view we have of our current incumbents.

Galway City & County Council were dominated for the two previous councils by FG, Lab and PD/Ind/Green councilors (FG went against Hqs wishes to form the current mayoral pact with FF in the city). The government got all the blame for doing nothing while the councils were run poorly by the opposition in the hopes that in the next general election they'll take it out on the government. Instead what happened is people ignore that crap at the national elections and did what they were going to do anyways - vote for the person who told the most believable lies.

I seem to remember that for both elections in the last decade the opposition shot themselves in the foot badly through lack of or very poor policies and an inability to stop fighting each other (an FG TD saying not long before the 2007 election that Kenny needs to go if he loses it is a good example of that). I remember the 2002 election for the reason that it's the fist dail election i could vote in. And when I looked at policies I had no problems backing FF because the other crowd simply had none that were worth discussing.

It's easy to blame people for following a government who appeared to be doing a good job at the time, but for gods sakes take a look at what they were up against - nothing! We've got a government by default because nobody was going to vote FF and people are scared of single party government

dowlingm

as I've said before - I believe there is a staring contest here between the bidders and the government. If the bidders cancel they forfeit any compo whereas if the govt cancel I believe the bidders will make a case for some if not all of their incurred costs. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me why this isn't already cancelled.

As for Clare Daly - easy for her to call for something she'll not have to worry about finding the shillings for.

dynamick

I doubt Clare Daly would support Metro North if she thought it would go ahead.

spacetweek

I remain convinced that this will proceed. Although Fingal's timetable is a bit far in the future for my liking, it'll have to do.
End 2012 - Enabling works
End 2013 - Drilling commences
End 2018 - Open

Zebra3

spacetweek wrote: »

I remain convinced that this will proceed.

On what basis?

There is no way rural FG TDs are gonna let this go ahead while there are cut back to hospitals in small towns.

Jack Noble

Zebra3 wrote: »

On what basis?

There is no way rural FG TDs are gonna let this go ahead while there are cut back to hospitals in small towns.

Another added complication thrown into the mix.

I'll bet DWC will feel he's caught in a time slip.

May as well dig out the old Oireachtas debates on the Dart in the 1980s - the script will be the same.

'Why should Dublin get....?

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

Another added complication thrown into the mix.

I'll bet DWC will feel he's caught in a time slip.

May as well dig out the old Oireachtas debates on the Dart in the 1980s - the script will be the same.

'Why should Dublin get....?

Its all so utterly sickening Jack. The predictability is soul destroying to anyone really interested in seeing these projects brought to fruition. Personally I have given up. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, if I'm right, so what. I certainly never wanted to create any personal notoriety by being the negative one that turned out to be right. However if we are to be very honest with ourselves, it looks increasingly unlikely that MN and DU will happen.

I'm emigrating.

D.L.R.

Jack Noble wrote: »

Another added complication thrown into the mix.

I'll bet DWC will feel he's caught in a time slip.

May as well dig out the old Oireachtas debates on the Dart in the 1980s - the script will be the same.

'Why should Dublin get....?

The man makes a very good point. Ireland has always been like that, and continues to be.

Its less a country and more a collection of semi independent petty kingdoms.

Could be the reason why Dublin is worse off than other European capitals.

Politicians can't seem to see the wood for the trees...

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

Its all so utterly sickening Jack. The predictability is soul destroying to anyone really interested in seeing these projects brought to fruition. Personally I have given up. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, if I'm right, so what. I certainly never wanted to create any personal notoriety by being the negative one that turned out to be right. However if we are to be very honest with ourselves, it looks increasingly unlikely that MN and DU will happen.

I'm emigrating.

Soul-destroying indeed, DW.

We would be so much better off without politicians. A most dangerous breed.

If the PPP cash is there for Metro then Leo and the govt have a very big call to make - but, like you, I don't see any bank(s) ponying up €2billion any time soon for an underground rail line in Ireland.

I maybe wrong but at this stage I wouldn't bet the last few yoyos on it.

But then again, if some mad bankers do back Metro, it's the one glimmer of hope for Dart going ahead in the medium-term.

Still, I'd love to be a fly on the Cabinet room wall then they come to debate this - James Reilly's arguments could be priceless.

But I'll bet he won't be closing any hospitals in Mayo or Limerick for a while.

Aard

A Meath minister can get his county an unnecessary motorway, arguably two.


A Waterford minister can get his county a toll-free motorway.


What hope does Dublin have if Leo doesn't deliver?

Jack Noble

Aard wrote: »

A Meath minister can get his county an unnecessary motorway, arguably two.


A Waterford minister can get his county a toll-free motorway.


What hope does Dublin have if Leo doesn't deliver?

There was magic money back then - there ain't no money now.

thebman

Jack Noble wrote: »

There was magic money back then - there ain't no money now.

Actually we have negative money :P

L1011

Aard wrote: »

A Waterford minister can get his county a toll-free motorway.

And an overspec bypass; although its not us carrying (all) of the can for that one...

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

Soul-destroying indeed, DW.

We would be so much better off without politicians. A most dangerous breed.

If the PPP cash is there for Metro then Leo and the govt have a very big call to make - but, like you, I don't see any bank(s) ponying up €2billion any time soon for an underground rail line in Ireland.

I maybe wrong but at this stage I wouldn't bet the last few yoyos on it.

But then again, if some mad bankers do back Metro, it's the one glimmer of hope for Dart going ahead in the medium-term.

Still, I'd love to be a fly on the Cabinet room wall then they come to debate this - James Reilly's arguments could be priceless.

But I'll bet he won't be closing any hospitals in Mayo or Limerick for a while.

Its over for public transport. Mad bankers for MN will have to be brave and patient bankers and I doubt there is that much vision from the financial sector left, in relation to broken Ireland. We got rode in other quarters and were left right back at the door we entered in 1921.

I'm emigrating.*

*I stayed throughout the late 80s and early 90s, built a business, suffered, gained little from the Celtic Tiger and am now crucified for the mistakes of others. My business will stay here, but the money generated will be spent elsewhere. Very sad, but unavoidable.

Neworder79

Jack Noble wrote: »

But I'll bet he won't be closing any hospitals in Mayo or Limerick for a while.

Mayo General has had ward closures in recent months, HSE proposing closing Limerick City's only A&E at night, so not as clear cut as you make out.