Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

cgcsb again the advantages of Route B are:
1) Avoids O'Connell St, therefore avoiding the cost of either having to create the Metro North station now, or dig the LUAS all up again in a few years time.
Either will make Route F far more expensive then Route B.

by placing both tracks on Marlborough street, this is easily avoided, without sending the luas on a crazy detour.

bk wrote: »

2) Avoids the issue of wires in front of our must historical buildings.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if An Board Pleanala rule that they have to go wireless for Route F. If this happens, then Route F will become much more expensive then route B which would completely avoid this issue.

There were way more wires there a hundred years ago, and now(as of 1960) the city council has planted huge trees to block views of trinners and BOI anyway.

bk wrote: »

3) Integrates with the DART literally outside the door of Pearse Station. This is true integration. A 5 to 6 minute walk (it definitely isn't 3 minutes) from Tara to Trinity isn't integration.

Hawkins house is planned to be demolished and a new pedestrian street is to be built connecting tara st to Hawkins st.

I think it's fairer to expect people to walk 5 mins if the wish to change rather than expect ALL pasangers to wait an extra 10 mins. A 5 minute walk to change is well within the standards of most integrated rail networks in Mainland Europe.

bk wrote: »

4) Will cause much less chaos and disruption to the city in terms of traffic and buses, then digging up most of O'Connell St, Bridge, Westmoreland St and College Green. This will just be mayhem and will have to be done all over again when Metro North is eventually built.

It would cause more mayham to route it via Pearse. College green will be heavily disrupted anyway because of traffic arrangements. The problem of the metro north station box is easily avoided by running luas as a double track like through Dawson st, College Green, Hawkins st., a new bridge, Marlborough st. Parnell st. and Broadstone railway cutting. This is the most direct route

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

There were way more wires there a hundred years ago, and now(as of 1960) the city council has planted huge trees to block views of trinners and BOI anyway.

The trees should be cut down and wires there a hundred years ago is no excuse for ruining such a potentially lovely place (I have some amazing pictures of the place, from the middle of the street after the queen passed and there was still no traffic. It would make for an amazing place).

Eventually, once LUAS BXD, MN and DU are built College Green should be turned into a pedestrianised square. This will be much less attractive if LUAS wires and LUAS's are buzzing through it every three minutes.

We should be planning ahead to create a nice attractive inner city, once all the public transport infrastructure is in place. Think big.

Anyway, An Board Plenala might force them to go wireless, which would add massively to the cost of route F. If ABP do order this, the NTA might reconsider going with Route B.

cgcsb wrote: »

I think it's fairer to expect people to walk 5 mins if the wish to change rather than expect ALL pasangers to wait an extra 10 mins.

Again it is 6 minutes longer, not 10. 8 minutes via route f, 14 minutes via route b.

To put this in context you Henry St to Stephens Green walking is 16 minutes.

A route like this isn't supposed to be getting you there significantly faster, remember you want to discourage short journeys of this sort on this route. You actually want most people walking or cycling (healthier for them).

14 minutes (versus 16) is still more then reasonable for people with kids, disabled, elderly, etc.

If you do it in just 8 minutes, then you might be encouraging able bodied people to be using the service that you would otherwise prefer to be walking.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

The trees should be cut down and wires there a hundred years ago is no excuse for ruining such a potentially lovely place (I have some amazing pictures of the place, from the middle of the street after the queen passed and there was still no traffic. It would make for an amazing place).

Eventually, once LUAS BXD, MN and DU are built College Green should be turned into a pedestrianised square. This will be much less attractive if LUAS wires and LUAS's are buzzing through it every three minutes.

We should be planning ahead to create a nice attractive inner city, once all the public transport infrastructure is in place. Think big.

Anyway, An Board Plenala might force them to go wireless, which would add massively to the cost of route F. If ABP do order this, the NTA might reconsider going with Route B.

so the ONLY reason you have to support a routing via Pearse, is that there'd be overhead wires on College Green?

bk wrote: »

Again it is 6 minutes longer, not 10. 8 minutes via route f, 14 minutes via route b.

nobody seriously believes that the luas can travel, in a central location with lots of twists and turns, stopping at traffic light junctions and sharing road space with cars, for 1km in less than 15 minutes on average. That's a dream, to be quite honest, a 6 minute extra travel time just won't happen, even on a good day.

bk wrote: »

A route like this isn't supposed to be getting you there significantly faster,

then what is the point? I could drive into town and park, why should I spend an extra 6(LOL @ that estimate!) getting to Henry st? I could get off at the green and walk, i.e. what people already do, this has no benefits for commuters, only fanciful wanna be artistes who don't like the look of the wires.

bk wrote: »

remember you want to discourage short journeys of this sort on this route. You actually want most people walking or cycling (healthier for them).

I wouldn't presume to make lifestyle choices for people I don't know. Sure lets just get rid of public transport altogether, walking/cycling is healthier.

bk wrote: »

14 minutes (versus 16) is still more then reasonable for people with kids, disabled, elderly, etc.

7 minutes is even better, regardless of how able bodied one is. Public transport is not just meant to be for the elderly and disabled. That is a perception in Ireland, the reality is we need ordinary people to access the city with ease. It is of no benefit to the economy to have elderly and disabled passengers, using their free travel pass, get to mass on time.

bk wrote: »

If you do it in just 8 minutes, then you might be encouraging able bodied people to be using the service that you would otherwise prefer to be walking.

They are adults, I'm not going to advocate making things more difficult for them for their own good, that's non of my business nor is it the business of ABP or RPA.

bk

FFS cgcsb I've given you multiple other advantages of this route already (twice) you just want to ignore them.

BTW yes, public transport is all about social engineering, this is why short journeys on the red line are comparatively expensive.

7 minutes is even better, regardless of how able bodied one is. Public transport is not just meant to be for the elderly and disabled. That is a perception in Ireland, the reality is we need ordinary people to access the city with ease. It is of no benefit to the economy to have elderly and disabled passengers, using their free travel pass, get to mass on time.

Sigh, that isn't what I was suggesting at all. What I was suggesting is that for LUAS BXD they will be promoting it's usage for people traveling long distances on he line and rightfully punishing people who only use it for short distance. Partly as it wouldn't have the capacity to handle all the people coming in from the suburbs, plus any only joe who wants to get from one side of the city center to the other.

You have to engineer these things (either via ticket costs or journey time or both) to target your specific goal.

eia340600

Let them do it by ticket cost then (which they undoubtedly will anyway), because 6 minutes extra could be the difference between leery day commuters using the Luas and the line to broombridge being half empty.

Zebra3

Sending it around by Pearse is crazy.

It will after all one day connect with the DART at SSG.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

FFS cgcsb I've given you multiple other advantages of this route already (twice) you just want to ignore them.

the only reasons you've offered for a Luas routing via Pearse is:
-Ovehead wires visually detracting from view of Trinners(not something that really bothers me, or most Dubliners I'd imagine).
-some bizzar compulsion to encourage people to walk by making public transport inaccessible

they are hardly compelling reasons to add an extra 1km of track and power lines to the price tag, adding 10 minutes to the commute and frustrating the sh*t out of Dubliners trying to get from a to b, via Timbuktu.

nordisk celt83

Underpass at the bottom of Dawson Street that comes out at Hawkins Street, and then crosses bridge to Marlborough Street, taking Luas away from College Green and O'Connell Street in both directions is optimum solution.

Such an underpass, which is common place in many European cities, could also be used to take vehicular traffic away College Green and OCS!!! (underground car-park attached and all)

Another underpass from Tara Street to Kildare Street, travelling in the opposite direction, would also be the best solution for bypassing the historic core completely.

If such an underpass was ever to come to pass (which it won't) the Hawkins house development if demolished would make a great location for a Dublin Bus terminal for connecting cross-city buses, and taking double-deckers off the sides of streets and quays.

We can only dream, I guess!!!

teol

nordisk celt83 wrote: »

Underpass at the bottom of Dawson Street that comes out at Hawkins Street, and then crosses bridge to Marlborough Street, taking Luas away from College Green and O'Connell Street in both directions is optimum solution.

Such an underpass, which is common place in many European cities, could also be used to take vehicular traffic away College Green and OCS!!! (underground car-park attached and all)

Another underpass from Tara Street to Kildare Street, travelling in the opposite direction, would also be the best solution for bypassing the historic core completely.

That would be a great route. It's a shame the RPA did not look at such alternatives.

IMO Luas BXD will never get built. There is too much opposition to it.

BrianD

bk wrote: »

The trees should be cut down and wires there a hundred years ago is no excuse for ruining such a potentially lovely place (I have some amazing pictures of the place, from the middle of the street after the queen passed and there was still no traffic. It would make for an amazing place).

Eventually, once LUAS BXD, MN and DU are built College Green should be turned into a pedestrianised square. This will be much less attractive if LUAS wires and LUAS's are buzzing through it every three minutes.

Done properly, the visual impact of overhead cabling is mimimal. There are fabulous cities in Europe with stunning buildings that also have overhead cabling systems.

Apart from GPO, the buildings on O'Connell St. are of no historical value other than the fact that most had to be rebuilt post 1916. So the actually post-date the original tram system.

We should be planning ahead to create a nice attractive inner city, once all the public transport infrastructure is in place. Think big.

Anyway, An Board Plenala might force them to go wireless, which would add massively to the cost of route F. If ABP do order this, the NTA might reconsider going with Route B.

And why not electric trams to bring us into this inner city. Clean and quiet. Agreed that the wireless system will be expensive and also seems unreliable in winter conditions.

strassenwo!f

bk wrote: »

BTW yes, public transport is all about social engineering, this is why short journeys on the red line are comparatively expensive.

Is it?

In the cities I've visited, public transport was generally about quality of life.

Or so I thought.

bk

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Is it?

In the cities I've visited, public transport was generally about quality of life.

Social engineering and quality of life go hand in hand.

People think their lives will be better if they buy a car and a three bedroom house 100km outside Dublin and then spend more then 3 hours a day sitting in a car.

If we had instead put more thought into social engineering, banning one of houses, ghost estates in the middle of nowhere and instead focused on sustainable development in the cities, I think you will find that it would lead to a better quality of life for most people.

dynamick

nordisk celt83 wrote: »

Underpass at the bottom of Dawson Street that comes out at Hawkins Street, and then crosses bridge to Marlborough Street, taking Luas away from College Green and O'Connell Street in both directions is optimum solution.

Trinity College successfully argued against allowing metro tunnels under the historic buildings. I don't remember the grounds.

Car tunnels under a city encourage people in the suburbs to drive into or across town.

strassenwo!f

bk wrote: »

Social engineering and quality of life go hand in hand.

People think their lives will be better if they buy a car and a three bedroom house 100km outside Dublin and then spend more then 3 hours a day sitting in a car.

If we had instead put more thought into social engineering, banning one of houses, ghost estates in the middle of nowhere and instead focused on sustainable development in the cities, I think you will find that it would lead to a better quality of life for most people.

Do they go hand in hand? In Ireland?

Making sure that your developer buddies get rich on the back of people buying homes in the middle of nowhere, and to hell with any proper planning - that's social engineering too, no?

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

People think their lives will be better if they buy a car and a three bedroom house 100km outside Dublin and then spend more then 3 hours a day sitting in a car.

Really? Who actually thinks that?

robd

dynamick wrote: »

Trinity College successfully argued against allowing metro tunnels under the historic buildings. I don't remember the grounds.

Car tunnels under a city encourage people in the suburbs to drive into or across town.

They've double basements under certain buildings. Think the arts building which exits at Dawson Street is one of them which would rule out an underpass.

Older buildings weren't built with same standard of foundations as today which would be a big big worry running anything underneath.

leshamry

What do people think of an intergrated bridge for the bridge off O'connell St? They can spend the money fixing the old one rather than build a new one? The buses can share with the luas lines? If metro north goes ahead after BXD if BXDA goes ahead it should be nice to save some money...

spacetweek

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm willing to accept that finances won't allow for it in the next 5 years, but we can at least get the preparatory works out of the way the same time as BXD.

Watched a Sky News article today saying Ireland is anticipated to be back in the markets by next year. You could see this project back on track sooner than you think. I'm still hopeful for 2013.

cgcsb

spacetweek wrote: »

Watched a Sky News article today saying Ireland is anticipated to be back in the markets by next year. You could see this project back on track sooner than you think. I'm still hopeful for 2013.

I'd like to be optimistic too. I just hope that the whole DART spur lunacy doesn't go beyond the drawing board, and I also hope that IÉ's 'consultants' get a firm shaking.

Cathaoirleach

Poll: What would be the best public transport link to Dublin Airport?

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-what-would-be-the-best-public-transport-link-to-dublin-airport-216269-Sep2011/?voted=1

lucernarian

The question was what would be the best public transport link to the airport. I interpret that to ask which offers the greatest advantages to passengers wishing to get there, regardless of how much it costs to build. I guess both would be my answer but the airport link can't afford to hinder limited northern line capacity.

DWCommuter

spacetweek wrote: »

Watched a Sky News article today saying Ireland is anticipated to be back in the markets by next year. You could see this project back on track sooner than you think. I'm still hopeful for 2013.

Two banks went back to the markets for small amounts. Its a sign, yes, but not a map of the future. Even if we re-entered the markets, it would not be a green light for any infrastructure project. We have accumulated substantial levels of debt and continue to require money for more mundane matters. Ultimately, even if the markets are willing to lend, we have made decisions that require a lot of financing for other areas. The ability to repay is still an issue and I fear that the likes of PPPs will be classed as "treats".

We are no longer in "treat" mode.

lods

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0930/1224305001673.html

<H1>No funds for Metro North plan

MICHAEL O'REGAN
Fri, Sep 30, 2011
MINISTER FOR Transport Leo Varadkar cast doubts on the Government giving the go-ahead to the Dublin Metro North rail project during its term in office.
He said it was a good project and would benefit his Dublin West constituency enormously.
“I would love to be able to deliver it to my constituents during my term in office, but it is the most expensive project by a mile and requires both private and public finances, neither of which are available, apparently, although this may change,” he added.
Mr Varadkar said the Government would not do anything to prevent Metro North, the Dart underground and the Luas BXD line going ahead in the future.
“If it is not possible for all, or any, of those projects to proceed during the term of this Government, we will ensure they get to the end-of-railway stage and have planning permission so that they will be shovel-ready when it is possible to proceed,’’ he added.
Dessie Ellis (SF) said Metro North had so far cost €150 million. He said the Government was talking about raising €5 billion, some of which would go towards job creation.
“I am not necessarily saying I agree with the selling off of State assets, because I do not, but I believe this project would deliver a lot of jobs,” he added.
Mr Varadkar said he had previously expressed the view that he would favour the sale of State assets if the money could be reinvested in the economy.
© 2011 The Irish Times

</H1>
Its like death by a thousand cuts :rolleyes:

dowlingm

Dessie Ellis (SF) said Metro North had so far cost €150 million. He said the Government was talking about raising €5 billion, some of which would go towards job creation.
“I am not necessarily saying I agree with the selling off of State assets, because I do not, but I believe this project would deliver a lot of jobs,” he added.

How many jobs per mEuro though? The only way MN would create SIGNIFICANT numbers of jobs is to abandon TBMs and earthmovers and go back to navvies.

noodler

dowlingm wrote: »

How many jobs per mEuro though? The only way MN would create SIGNIFICANT numbers of jobs is to abandon TBMs and earthmovers and go back to navvies.

Obviously how many jobs it would create (directly) should always be a secondary concern to the Government.

dynamick

Varadkar seems to be hinting that even BXD may not be approved. :-(

Perhaps the govt opinion is that it would be better spending the capital transport budget on road resurfacing and the like as the contracts for this type of work generally go to local companies employing local labour. The Luas extension to cherrywood by contrast was built by Portuguese workers from Somague a subsidiary of a Spanish construction company.

Road resurfacing work is also very obvious to the public and probably the most popular of transport investment as most people don't use public transport. Also it brings very short term benefits which can be used to gather votes. By contrast, a metro project will only bring disruption during the current administration and complete during a future government. In the past FF were happy to plan infrastructure projects that spanned administrations because they expected to be in power for ever. FG know they will be lucky to make it to 2016 following 5 hairshirt budgets let alone 2021.

Cathaoirleach

dynamick wrote: »

Varadkar seems to be hinting that even BXD may not be approved. :-(

It won't be. That's why they're talking about BRT systems now.

NITransport

Dublin 4th most car dependent city in Europe

Stockholm, Helsinki and Prague are the top 3 least car dependent cities. All have vast tram and underground systems. But sure we can just continue to get worse, and not invest in anything, as the success of Carrolls tack shops is more important...

Oversea deposits in Irish Banks increase - signalling confidence

Hmmm, can we have at least one of the three things that could help Dublin... Metro North, BXD (with the promise that MN will come in time) or for christ sake an integrated ticketing system!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Jack Noble

Metro North Dardistown depot has been granted a railway order by An Bord Pleanala, according to post on Metro North Facebook site. Official confirmation letter arrived at RPA this morning, says MN on FB.

http://www.facebook.com/MetroNorth

No details elsewhere - yet.

This kicks off the 'best and final offer' process for the PPP bidders.

My understanding is that any decision to proceed/defer will only be taken by government once these BAFOs have been submitted and analysed because to do so beforehand could trigger compensation to the PPP bidders.

But we're certainly in the final furlong of the Metro North decision process now.

Zebra3

Jack Noble wrote: »

But we're certainly in the final furlong of the Metro North decision process now.

You actually sound excited?! :eek: