Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

lods

Zebra3 wrote: »

You actually sound excited?! :eek:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1005/metro_north.html

Metro North has been given the go-ahead by An Bord Pleanála despite doubts about the future of the project.
1 of 1 [URL="javascript:void(0)"][/URL][URL="javascript:void(0)"][/URL]Leo Varadkar expected to postpone Metro North project


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Metro North has been given the final go-ahead despite doubts about the future of the project.
The Rail Procurement Agency was given permission for a 16.5-km track from St Stephen's Green to Swords last October.
But An Bord Pleanála had shortened the proposed route and asked that the rail depot be moved from Belinstown north of Swords to Dardistown south of Dublin Airport.
Today the board approved revised plans which would also involve permission for acquisition of lands.
Two plots are occupied by sports clubs Na Fianna and Whitehall Rangers. There is also land owned by Fingal County Council used as an aircraft viewing area and land belonging to the Dublin Airport Authority.
The permission will last for 10 years meaning these lands and others along the route cannot be developed by anyone else in the meantime.
It is reported that Transport Minister Leo Varadkar will announce before the end of the year the postponement of both Metro North and the Underground DART whose combined cost is estimated at €5 billion.
But the Rail Procurement Agency is reported to have already spent €200 million on the Metro project and is now due to select a winning bid to build and operate Metro North from two competing consortiums Celtic Metro and Metro Express.
It is also understood the successful company would be entitled to compensation if the project is deferred.
Mr Varadkar recently announced that the Metro West project would not be going through the planning process

.



Interesting about compensation in the last paragraph, suggestion the winning consortium would be entitled to compensation if its deferred.

dynamick

An Bord Pleanala has taken three years to approve this project.

Jack Noble

Zebra3 wrote: »

You actually sound excited?!

No - just want a bloody decision either way at this stage.

lods wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1005/metro_north.html

.Interesting about compensation in the last paragraph, suggestion the winning consortium would be entitled to compensation if its deferred.

This has been known about for some time and has been referred to in the Dail by Leo Varadkar and Noel Dempsey before him. It has been raised in the Dail by a number of TDs, including Tommy Broughan of Labour when in opposition and Finian McGrath in July.

Here's what Varadkar told McGrath then:

The issue of compensation should it arise, would be dealt with under the agreed procurement terms between the RPA and the Metro North bidders, the details of which are commercially sensitive.

Dáil Éireann - 20/Jul/2011 Written Answers - Public Transport Projects

Cathaoirleach

We're going to need a lot more than 10 years planning permission.

Brian CivilEng

Anything that makes it more difficult to cancel has to be welcomed. The RPA has not been instructed to suspend operations on Metro North, so right now they should carry on with the tendering process. If the project is cancelled, any money spent now is due to the dithering of our politicians. If the project is shovel ready and the tenderers are confident that they can get funding then it will be difficult for the government to say no.

An Bord Pleanala spent a ridiculous amount of time on this, but now it means that there is planing permission for the next ten years. I may be wrong about it but my understanding is that the alignment is now protected and any hopes of building BXD without also building the station boxes for Metro North have evaporated.

Fingers crossed that Dublin will soon have a big ticket project that will provide employment and capture the imagination of the public. During the 1920's we built Ardnacrusha, during the 1980's we built the DART. Can Metro North be this recession's legacy.

Granted, I'd prefer to see DART Underground going ahead, but I wouldn't say no to this. Maybe it's time to consider congestion charging in the city centre in order to finance the public transport projects.

BrianD

Well he was never going to cancel it before the planning decision was due.

Now that the planning is in, it's a good time to park this project for at least 10 years.

abitofacomedian wrote:

...during the 1980's we built the DART.

The DART was already there. All we did was electrify an existing line and buy some trains. And then stopped! Hardly, an Ardnacrusha. Incidentally, there was a story that Siemens never got paid for their work in Shannon. Also Siemens wanted to raise the wages of workers but got knocked back by the forerunner of FG. Wonder could we get Siemens signed up for MN and do a runner??

Brian CivilEng

Ah come on, let me be positive for at least one day before the crushing reality becomes clear. :P

BrianD wrote: »

The DART was already there. All we did was electrify an existing line and buy some trains. And then stopped! Hardly, an Ardnacrusha.

Bit of a bigger deal than that. What was done was impressive, track had to be lowered in a lot of places to fit the electrification and all this done on an operational line. But I agree that it wasn't an Ardnacrusha.

Cathaoirleach

traintimes wrote: »

1. 15 billion euro Metro North plan, which will destroy Irelands hope of Economic revival.

Nice try, Frank McDonald.

murphaph

On a related note....I find it pretty unfair that a person's land can be included in the protected alignment (and thus rendered virtually unsellable) for 10 years without the state being obliged to actually buy it. The landowner is left in limbo for at least a decade.

Could someone confirm the situation with development levies along the route? We applied for PP for a small commercial extension and because it was in the 1km catchment of the (now dead) metro west, the RPA reckoned that a levy would be due!! I imagine many people have already forked out money to the RPA for metro west. What happens to that money? Will people in the MN catchment be expected to pay development levies for a line that won't be built either?

dynamick

murphaph wrote: »

Could someone confirm the situation with development levies along the route? We applied for PP for a small commercial extension and because it was in the 1km catchment of the (now dead) metro west, the RPA reckoned that a levy would be due!! I imagine many people have already forked out money to the RPA for metro west. What happens to that money? Will people in the MN catchment be expected to pay development levies for a line that won't be built either?

Commercial extensions in the catchment of Metro West are levied at €50/sqm by Fingal coco. The local authority has the right to change the scheme to a lower amount in future if the cost of the project reduces. The minister for transport still claims that MW has not been cancelled just that they are not going to build it in the foreseeable future!

I imagine that the LA will be under pressure to return development levies for MW.

MN has collected 15m in development levies, including nearly 10m last year. I doubt this money will be returned before the tender completes next year. At that point the state would have to decide whether to can the project.

I would be optimistic that there is some chance of project revival next year. 5yr govt debt is today trading at 6.5% in secondary markets. Metro North's ROI is higher than that.

murphaph

Do you know if this money is deposited in a specific account that can't be touched until construction or cancellation or is it just part of the general local authority slush fund? ie, is there any real possibility of getting this money back assuming a line is not built?

lods

murphaph wrote: »

Do you know if this money is deposited in a specific account that can't be touched until construction or cancellation or is it just part of the general local authority slush fund? ie, is there any real possibility of getting this money back assuming a line is not built?

http://www.herald.ie/news/city-council-must-repay-e3m-if-metro-vision-stalls-2898097.html

City council must repay e3m if Metro vision stalls

By Cormac Murphy
Thursday October 06 2011
DUBLIN City Council will have to pay back €3m to developers if Metro North does not go ahead, it has emerged.
An Bord Pleanala has given final planning approval but there are severe doubts over whether the underground rail link will ever be built.
And it has now been revealed the council will have to return the millions of euro if the scheme is called off.
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar is expected to announce the postponement of both Metro North and the Underground Dart project, which would have cost a combined €5bn. The Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), which is overseeing Metro North, has already spent over €200m on the proposal.
With permission being granted, the RPA is now due to select a winning bid to build and operate the system.
Two consortiums, Celtic Metro and Metro Express, are competing with each other to land the massive contract.
Reports have indicated that the successful bidder would be entitled to compensation if the project was postponed.
In addition, Fine Gael councillor Paddy McCartan asked Dublin City Council what would happen to the money it collected in development contributions in the event of Metro North not going ahead.
The sums are paid by developers who build housing or office schemes along or near the proposed route of Metro North.
In a reply, the council revealed about €3m has been collected under section 49 of the Metro North Development Contributions Scheme on behalf of RPA.
"Should the project not go ahead it is anticipated that the contributions paid would be refunded. If the project is suspended, the monies would be held and transferred to the RPA when the project recommenced," the council told Cllr McCartan.
Mr Varadkar is likely to shelve the project next month when the Government announces its new national development plan.
Yesterday, An Bord Pleanala approved the construction of a depot for the light rail system and gave the go-ahead to acquire lands owned by GAA clubs Na Fianna and Whitehall Rangers, Fingal County Council and Dublin Airport Authority.
comurphy@hnews.ie
- Cormac Murphy

So they'll have to keep collecting levies?

Jack Noble

lods wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/city-council-must-repay-e3m-if-metro-vision-stalls-2898097.html?service=Print

</H1>
So they'll have to keep collecting levies?

While the project is live, yes.

The levy is in effect until 2039.

Just because Metro North may not go ahead in 2012 does not preclude construction from commencing in 2015 or 2018, etc.

It has a 10-year railway order (planning permission) which can be extended by ministerial order.

Why would DCC and FCC cease collecting levies on something that has planning permission to proceed in the future?

BrianD

Jack Noble wrote: »

While the project is live, yes.

The levy is in effect until 2039.

Just because Metro North may not go ahead in 2012 does not preclude construction from commencing in 2015 or 2018, etc.

It has a 10-year railway order (planning permission) which can be extended by ministerial order.

Why would DCC and FCC cease collecting levies on something that has planning permission to proceed in the future?

It is a thorny issue though. I can see your point on this but I can also see that it is unreasonable to collect levies for a line that has no defined delivery time.

In reality, there should be no levy at all. The line needs passengers to be economical, it makes sense to build around transport so there should be no levies.

Is there any clauses like the M-way PPS deals where if a certain level of traffic isn't present that the taxpayer pays out?

Victor

Jack Noble wrote: »

My understanding is that any decision to proceed/defer will only be taken by government once these BAFOs have been submitted and analysed because to do so beforehand could trigger compensation to the PPP bidders.

What is your basis for this?

abitofacomedian wrote: »

An Bord Pleanala spent a ridiculous amount of time on this, but now it means that there is planing permission for the next ten years.

In fairness, it was its largest project ever.

murphaph wrote: »

On a related note....I find it pretty unfair that a person's land can be included in the protected alignment (and thus rendered virtually unsellable) for 10 years without the state being obliged to actually buy it. The landowner is left in limbo for at least a decade.

On the flip side, those are the sites that have the most to gain from the project also.

Could someone confirm the situation with development levies along the route? We applied for PP for a small commercial extension and because it was in the 1km catchment of the (now dead) metro west, the RPA reckoned that a levy would be due!! I imagine many people have already forked out money to the RPA for metro west. What happens to that money?

It is collected by the council and handed over to the RPA and kept separately.

Will people in the MN catchment be expected to pay development levies for a line that won't be built either?

The scheme lasts for 30 years. If the project doesn't proceed, the money is refunded. The only problem I have with this is that it gets returned to the original contributor, not the land owner.

murphaph wrote: »

Do you know if this money is deposited in a specific account that can't be touched until construction or cancellation or is it just part of the general local authority slush fund? ie, is there any real possibility of getting this money back assuming a line is not built?

The councils have no access to the money.

BrianD wrote: »

In reality, there should be no levy at all. The line needs passengers to be economical, it makes sense to build around transport so there should be no levies.

On balance, the developer who pay the contributions are allowed build to a higher density.

Is there any clauses like the M-way PPS deals where if a certain level of traffic isn't present that the taxpayer pays out?

The government will pay an availability payment once the line is up and running. No service, no payment. The government gets to keep fares, rents and advertising.

lods

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1108/breaking3.html

Cabinet to agree spending cuts

DEAGLÁN de BRÉADÚN, Political Correspondent
Tue, Nov 08, 2011
The Cabinet is to sign off on a reduced capital expenditure programme this morning. Government sources confirmed last night that the high-profile Metro North rail project is unlikely to be on the list.
The Cabinet meeting, due to start at 10.30am, is expected to focus mainly on infrastructure projects that are seen as “critical” for economic recovery.

In his medium-term fiscal statement last Friday, Minister for Finance Michael Noonan announced a €750 million cut in capital spending for 2012. The programme of surviving capital projects is to be announced on Thursday.

Fianna Fáil finance spokesman Michael McGrath said last night the current capital expenditure programme was being significantly under-utilised.

“The evidence so far this year is that the capital budget isn’t even being fully spent, with an under-spend of €340 million for the first 10 months of the year, 12 per cent behind target.

“There is excellent value for money to be had in delivering capital projects at the present time and we would like the Government to take full advantage of that,” Mr McGrath added.

He said the Government had now decided on the overall budget for capital projects over the next four years. “We believe that investment should be channelled to the greatest extent possible to labour-intensive capital projects so as to maximise the number of jobs created from the spend.”

Sinn Féin transport spokesman Dessie Ellis said scrapping Metro North would be damaging both for Dublin and for Ireland and a blow to the many people hoping to find work on the project.

“This decision will put an end to a process which started with the publication of Transport 21 back in 2005.

“Six years later, with massive consultation having taken place and in excess of €150 million being spent from the public purse, it is to be abandoned,” the Dublin North West TD said.

He added: “This is a chance for this Government to put jobs, infrastructure and development above the bailouts and the kow-towing to the troika. It would seem now they have failed miserably to do this.

“The possibility that we will scrap this massively worthwhile project just one week after the State paid $1 billion to unguaranteed bondholders is a huge indictment of this Government and its vision for Ireland,” Mr Ellis said.

Sinn Féin is proposing a private members’ motion on the Anglo Irish Bank promissory note, to be debated this week. It calls on the Government to “make clear that it is not in a position to pay this toxic private banking debt”.

The motion goes on to demand that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance “enter into immediate discussions with the European Central Bank to have the promissory note withdrawn and to remove this toxic private banking liability from the State and the taxpayer”.

The party’s finance spokesman, Pearse Doherty, said: “The Anglo Irish promissory note is a national scandal. It will cost the taxpayer at least €74 billion by 2031 and, according to some economists, may cost more than €90 billion.”

Labour TD for Dublin North Central Aodhán Ó Ríordáin said the refusal to pass on the European Central Bank’s interest rate cut by several financial institutions showed that “Government action is urgently needed”.

“I welcome the moves from the financial institutions who are willing to pass on the rate cut, but the mixed messages from some others is really disappointing.”
© 2011 irishtimes.com

cancel or postpone?

AngryLips

What is the reason for capital underspend mentioned in the article?

Jack Noble

Victor wrote: »

Originally Posted by Jack Noble
My understanding is that any decision to proceed/defer will only be taken by government once these BAFOs have been submitted and analysed because to do so beforehand could trigger compensation to the PPP bidders.

What is your basis for this?

What I was told during the summer by someone who was familiar with the process. RPA/DoT wanted to see what final price and terms the bidders would come in with - or if they could even raise private finance at all in current climate.

From the leaks of recent days it looks like that is no longer a consideration - short-termism and populism are the order of the day again, it appears.

According to Metro North Facebook page, Prime Time looking at public transport tonight.

Metro North Thanks for the support. Just want to let you know that RTE's Primtime is planning to do a feature on public transport tonight. You might want to watch it.

Pete_Cavan

Just confirmed; MN is not definitely not going ahead.

The government has allowed socialist windbag Clare Daly go on PrimeTime instead of getting a competent person to defend the project. She clearly has no clue about the benefits of the projects (beyond the obvious) and just bleated on about a wealth tax and burning bondholders (the same people who would be required to fund MN) when challenged. After watching that the general public will be delighted the government has had the good sense to scrap Berties vanity project - score one for Enda and Eamon. And poor auld Clare unsuspectingly allowed herself be used as a puppet by the government propaganda machine (I dont really feel sorry for her :pac:).

strassenwo!f

Pete, are you basing this statement on Clare Daly's views?

Does the Government decide who goes on Prime Time?

That is news to me.

Clare Daly, from the Socialist Party, which is not in government, has no say in whether or not the metronorth project goes ahead. I mean, we all know it won't, but it's got nothing to do with what Ms Daly says.

lods

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Just confirmed; MN is not definitely not going ahead.

The government has allowed socialist windbag Clare Daly go on PrimeTime instead of getting a competent person to defend the project. She clearly has no clue about the benefits of the projects (beyond the obvious) and just bleated on about a wealth tax and burning bondholders (the same people who would be required to fund MN) when challenged. After watching that the general public will be delighted the government has had the good sense to scrap Berties vanity project - score one for Enda and Eamon. And poor auld Clare unsuspectingly allowed herself be used as a puppet by the government propaganda machine (I dont really feel sorry for her :pac:).

She hadn't a clue, apparently she's seen the final cost from the bidders and all the other information the RPA won't give out. She wouldn't even discuss the two ther projects, but then again theres no votes in those for her.:rolleyes: . and her dig at Moore McDowell about being a southsider and not understanding the Northside was cringeworthy.

murphaph

Jack Noble wrote: »

According to Metro North Facebook page, Prime Time looking at public transport tonight.

RTE get Claire fcuking Daly on to sell metro North.

Why couldn't they have gotten someone who isn't economically devoid of reality to explain the benefits of MN.

Brian CivilEng

They had a economists, a socialist TD and a couple of PR guys between the report and discussion. Nobody who knows anything useful. A transport planner could demonstrate why these projects are necessary, an engineer could discuss the likely issues in building it but these trivial details mean nothing. No, an economist who thinks that "20,000 students already get around somehow" means that when they are concentrated on one inner suburb rather than scattered around the well connected city centre, things will just work themselves out. Moore McDowell, whose smiles of bemusement and snorts of derision were enough of an argument, Clare Daly who thinks "but we really, really want it" is enough of an argument, and our PR heads who just spout the company line. Waste of time watching this, I don't know why I bothered.

Metro North will be cancelled scorched earth style, not postponed. The reason, it'll take longer than one election cycle to start delivering. DART Underground will be reimagined. The "Luas interconnector" will be built on the cheap. Meet you back here in 2041 lads, when we are discussing why the Sinn Féin/Socialist coalition are cancelling the vacuum tube link to the airport lads.

DWCommuter

abitofacomedian wrote: »

They had a economists, a socialist TD and a couple of PR guys between the report and discussion. Nobody who knows anything useful. A transport planner could demonstrate why these projects are necessary, an engineer could discuss the likely issues in building it but these trivial details mean nothing. No, an economist who thinks that "20,000 students already get around somehow" means that when they are concentrated on one inner suburb rather than scattered around the well connected city centre, things will just work themselves out. Moore McDowell, whose smiles of bemusement and snorts of derision were enough of an argument, Clare Daly who thinks "but we really, really want it" is enough of an argument, and our PR heads who just spout the company line. Waste of time watching this, I don't know why I bothered.

Metro North will be cancelled scorched earth style, not postponed. The reason, it'll take longer than one election cycle to start delivering. DART Underground will be reimagined. The "Luas interconnector" will be built on the cheap. Meet you back here in 2041 lads, when we are discussing why the Sinn Féin/Socialist coalition are cancelling the vacuum tube link to the airport lads.

As I have said many many times here, the wheel will be reinvented. Read your history books lads.

Great to see some posters finally figuring out how its done in Ireland.:D

Aard

DWCommuter wrote: »

As I have said many many times here, the wheel will be reinvented. Read your history books lads.

So what's the next incarnation? "Dart North", with link at Donabate? Actually, how about Metro gauge tracks initially, but with tunnels that will be able to accomodate Dart trains for the eventual Dartification of the Green line as far as Sandyford. Then the resulting Luas tail can run -- wait for it -- tramtrains to Tallaght via Finglas and the Greater Dublin 15 Megalo'burb. Brrrrrilliant! T_T

Pete_Cavan

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Pete, are you basing this statement on Clare Daly's views?

Does the Government decide who goes on Prime Time?

That is news to me.

Clare Daly, from the Socialist Party, which is not in government, has no say in whether or not the metronorth project goes ahead. I mean, we all know it won't, but it's got nothing to do with what Ms Daly says.

The Government doesnt decide who goes on Prime Time but if they offered a member of the government, or someone connected with it, Im sure PrimeTime would have had them on. Instead the government refused to send anyone and the shows producers had to go well down their list of potential guests until they found someone who would defend the project - Clare Daly. The government will be more than happy with her performance because she has only served to turn public opinion against the project, meaning people will be relieved when it is canned tomorrow. She has made tomorrows announcement easier for the government unbeknownst to herself.

Heroditas

lods wrote: »

and her dig at Moore McDowell about being a southsider and not understanding the Northside was cringeworthy.

Isn't she from Kildare?

strassenwo!f

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Government doesnt decide who goes on Prime Time but if they offered a member of the government, or someone connected with it, Im sure PrimeTime would have had them on. Instead the government refused to send anyone and the shows producers had to go well down their list of potential guests until they found someone who would defend the project - Clare Daly. The government will be more than happy with her performance because she has only served to turn public opinion against the project, meaning people will be relieved when it is canned tomorrow. She has made tomorrows announcement easier for the government unbeknownst to herself.

(I have tried to watch this program but the rte player keeps telling me that I need to download some adobe thing which I already have on my computer).

So, was it stated that the Government refused to send anyone onto the program? Or do you know this via some other source?

strassenwo!f

I mean, if they have someone from the Govt. along with some economists, then they probably have to have someone from the opposition. And it's hard to know who the opposition is these days. Is it FF, with a paltry 19 seats, or is it SF with about a dozen?

They may have decided just to invite some politician who isn't really government or opposition but who is interested in seeing the project happen.

No?

Jack Noble

To be fair to Clare Daly - and I'm no fan of her or Joe Higgins or RBB or their brand of politics - she is the only opposition TD in Dublin North.

James Reilly made an awful lot of promises to the people of Swords re Metro North, as did his running mate Alan Farrell - and both were elected as a result.

Brendan Ryan from Labour did the same and brought Eamon Gilmore to Swords where he did a very public u-turn on his 'Metro will be shoved back' comment. It was a great project altogether when he was looking for Labour votes in Swords.

All three have gone to ground on the project now - and Reilly, in particular, will face a backlash as is a senior part of the Cabinet that has now 'shoved back' the project, to use Gilmore's term.

Daly did her best last night given the circumstances and cut through an awful lot of bull spouted by Moore McDowell. She also showed herself well-briefed on the project and aware of the figures - too well-briefed and she rowed back a tad when McDowell wanted to know why she had the figures that the RPA wouldn't make public.

McDowell did a lot of waffling - at one stage he even dismissed Cost-Benefit Analysis despite reams of economists demanding CBAs be done on Metro and othe projects. Economists can't have it both ways - demand CBAs and then dismiss them when the outcome doesn't support their stance.

And just to illustrate what the likes of Reilly, Varadkar and Burton are going to face on this decision, here is a press release issued last night by the new Labour TD for Dublin West, Patrick Nulty, who is barely a week in the Dail and already launching a warning shot at his senior govt colleagues in the constituency.

Part of Swords and the area around the airport are in Dublin West and Metro North (and West) was a big issue on the doorsteps there in the recent by-election - FF, SF and the SP/ULA candidates made sure it was to stick boot into FG and Lab.

Here's the press release issued by the Labour Party Press Office in the Dail on behalf of Nulty.

STATEMENT BY PATRICK NULTY TD

Labour TD, Dublin West
Tuesday, 08 November 2011

METRO NORTH – THIS CANNOT BE THE END THE LINE


Labour Party TD Patrick Nulty has said that the refusal of the Government to proceed with plans to build Metro North at this time is a mistake and that the project must be kept alive.

“It is only one month since the project was granted final planning permission. With 200 million spent on Metro North to date, and the economic case for Metro North as strong as ever, I will be campaigning to get Metro North back on track.”

“You simply cannot cut your way out of the recession. Growth is the key to plugging the deficit and employment creating projects are the weapon at the government’s disposal.”

“Postponing investment in public transport is simply pushing up costs in the long term and reducing prospects for growth. The deployment of the pension reserve fund, the investment of pension funds and increased taxes on those who can pay more will provide the resources for the investment required.”

“The majority of unemployed people have now been out of work for more than a year. We require a change in strategy to create jobs and provide this vital piece of infrastructure.”

“I will be working to create the broadest possible coalition to get the Metro back on track and create an alternative political position to the cycle of cuts.”

“There is an economic imperative for construction of Metro North to begin and I will fight with the people of Swords for this work to commence”.

Expect more of this from backbench TDs in both govt parties in the coming days - don't be surprised to see something similar from Farrell and Ryan, John Lyons (Lab) in Dublin North West or Pascal Donohoe (FG) in Dublin Central - as well as FF, SF, Higgins and Daly. FFS, I wouldn't be shocked to see one come from Joe Costello in Dublin Central - despite the shyte he came out with before the election when he was Labour's Transport spokesman.

As we've seen re various issues, many voters - naively, I would say - actually take election promises very seriously and expect them to be delivered.