Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

MJohnston

The whole public transport industry is going to be absolutely turned upside down by driverless technology. This is why you're mad if you're not teaching your children how to code - systems technicians will be the bus drivers of the future!

Idbatterim

there may be a silver cloud in all of this, including tunneling out to Ranelagh as part of RMN... to link up with the proposed upgrading of current green line to "metro south" Imagine the new scheme connecting with heavy rail at donabate etc and down in bray and running nearly 24 hours a day...

Sam Russell

I would have thought driverless Dart would be an easier project than driverless Luas as there is no interaction with other traffic.

MJohnston

Well "easier" has to be measured both in the technological sense and in the human sense. We'll perfect the technology long before we get past the protests that it shouldn't be adopted. For an example of this, see how Gardai still insist that they must be the ones to police bus lanes/gates and red lights, rather than 99.9% perfect camera systems.

McAlban

As someone who does implement systems automation in my own job, a lot of time it comes down to fear of change and of course the psychological need of politics to be seen to be creating jobs. There is no reason why a grade separated light or heavy rail system cannot be 100% automated if the will, and the funding, is there to do it. The theory is solid, there are working samples of the system, it's just getting the variables right and putting in the correct safety measures. Like I said, read up on the Copenhagen Metro. It's a huge success story and 100% Automated.

Sam Russell

There could be zero implications for jobs if the driver becomes the guard who checks all is safe for the doors to close, and between stops is the revenue protection officer.

Automation would improve punctuality, and I would think, speed. The revenue would be better protected by the almost certainty that tickets will be checked.

McAlban

Sam Russell wrote: »

There could be zero implications for jobs if the driver becomes the guard who checks all is safe for the doors to close, and between stops is the revenue protection officer.

Automation would improve punctuality, and I would think, speed. The revenue would be better protected by the almost certainty that tickets will be checked.

Yeah when I have been on an S-Train or Metro in Denmark there is always an inspector with a digital scanner and NFC device to check the tickets. They even read barcodes off phones, for pre-booked journeys I imagine.

LeinsterDub

http://www.newstalk.com/Luas-new-trams-Cross-City-Green-line-Citadis-Paschal-Donohoe


So that's red line and green line platforms extended if I'm not mistaken? Or at least the trams.

Which is why reducing the platform length for MNL to save pittance makes so much sense

Grandeeod

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.newstalk.com/Luas-new-trams-Cross-City-Green-line-Citadis-Paschal-Donohoe


So that's red line and green line platforms extended if I'm not mistaken? Or at least the trams.

Which is why reducing the platform length for MNL to save pittance makes so much sense

LOL!

Only 13 years ago, there was mad debate on Newstalk and lots of other media about the fact that Red line trams were shorter than Green line trams. But the RPA defended it to the bitter end, until they eventually ordered extensions for the Red line. Nobody lost their job over it!

http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/luas/

Now the trams are even longer! It only took 13 years to get to grips with it.

MN....Not a hope. Read. Research and educate yourselves.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

there may be a silver cloud in all of this, including tunneling out to Ranelagh as part of RMN... to link up with the proposed upgrading of current green line to "metro south" Imagine the new scheme connecting with heavy rail at donabate etc and down in bray and running nearly 24 hours a day...

I've singled this post out, but it's related to others, so OP please don't take any personal offense.

WTF drugs are some of you on to be talking about stuff that will not and never will apply to any Government thinking or policy. All this talk about automation and driverless metro units???? Lads, please direct your energy, if you care, to targeting the state about its terrible attitude to rail transport development in the capital. Some of the recent **** here is completely laughable. I'm still waiting on a reply from a mod post that claimed Michael O'Leary would support MN/DU or a DART Spur if his business could benefit! I simply requested evidence and I'm still waiting.

monument

McAlban wrote: »

Will it be? God knows what will come out of the proposal. Cost saving may lead to running on Road up the R108 through Ballymun.

I know Copenhagen metro is locked into a particular type of train because the manufactures developed the automation system. It's really something to sit in the front of a metro from the Airport to City centre.

It's an experience:



I know it's like this in small airport rail systems, but it's something else seeing it on a metro system:

McAlban wrote: »

As someone who does implement systems automation in my own job, a lot of time it comes down to fear of change and of course the psychological need of politics to be seen to be creating jobs. There is no reason why a grade separated light or heavy rail system cannot be 100% automated if the will, and the funding, is there to do it. The theory is solid, there are working samples of the system, it's just getting the variables right and putting in the correct safety measures. Like I said, read up on the Copenhagen Metro. It's a huge success story and 100% Automated.

It's quite a different system than what's proposed for Dublin and automated rail usually includes fully enclosed platforms:

Idbatterim

Grandeeod wrote: »

I've singled this post out, but it's related to others, so OP please don't take any personal offense.

WTF drugs are some of you on to be talking about stuff that will not and never will apply to any Government thinking or policy. All this talk about automation and driverless metro units???? Lads, please direct your energy, if you care, to targeting the state about its terrible attitude to rail transport development in the capital. Some of the recent **** here is completely laughable. I'm still waiting on a reply from a mod post that claimed Michael O'Leary would support MN/DU or a DART Spur if his business could benefit! I simply requested evidence and I'm still waiting.

I have targeted stuff at them. As recently as a few days ago I wrote to coveney saying it's hilarious how the housing situation is being exacerbated by bad planning and how scrapping MN and du based on convenient lies, was a bad idea... Honestly though if we are waiting another few years for this, it's going to be redesigned. Why in 2016 shouldn't we be talking about a nearly entirely segregated light rail line, that won't be operational until at least 2026 being automated?

McAlban

monument wrote: »

It's an experience:


I know it's like this in small airport rail systems, but it's something else seeing it on a metro system:


It's quite a different system than what's proposed for Dublin and automated rail usually includes fully enclosed platforms:

Thanks monument, I don't know why but I never think to take photos. I'm in Copenhagen at least 4 times a year, and always take the metro. Far quicker and cheaper than a Taxi.

It's an example of a good system one we can only dream of.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have targeted stuff at them. As recently as a few days ago I wrote to coveney saying it's hilarious how the housing situation is being exacerbated by bad planning and how scrapping MN and du based on convenient lies, was a bad idea... Honestly though if we are waiting another few years for this, it's going to be redesigned. Why in 2016 shouldn't we be talking about a nearly entirely segregated light rail line, that won't be operational until at least 2026 being automated?

The Bold bit.

Because it's another excuse for the Irish political class to shelve it. Not only have they not got their heads around an underground, they will take another 20 years to get their heads around it being automated.

McAlban

Just realised today Transport 21 was due to be completed by 2015. :mad:

2025 is really too much to hope for.

strassenwo!f

Don't stop there.

T21, as far as Dublin was concerned, was a cherry-pick of the most important bits of the 'Platform for Change' document produced by the Dublin Transportation Office (an offshoot of the Department of Transport) around 2000.

Almost none of either plan was ever built.

McAlban

Actually,

Luas Cross City, WRC, Navan Line, Middleton, plus Roads Galore, were built, Not to mention KRP and CCRP.

Just no metro station on College Green.

strassenwo!f

McAlban wrote: »

Actually,

Luas Cross City, WRC, Navan Line, Middleton, plus Roads Galore, were built, Not to mention KRP and CCRP.

Just no metro station on College Green.

We were talking about Dublin.

LUAS cross-city was not in the Platform for Change plan produced by that DOT offshoot.

The Navan line was in the plan, sensibly, and to date, after 16 years, it's been built as far as Dunboyne.

What else has been achieved, from those plans?

McAlban

T21 was a National Plan, I was not talking about Dublin...

And as for what was acheived from those plans.... That was my point...

I wonder what we'd discuss if Transport 21 had been delivered on time and on budget. We're still arguing over recommendations from the DRTS from 1975.

strassenwo!f

I'm not sure that's very helpful.

The DOT plan in 2000, and the T21 later?

In terms of Dublin, almost nothing of those high-profile plans has been implemented.

For 16 years.

McAlban

DTS, DRTS, DTO, Platform for change, T21. 40 - 45 years?

See a recurring theme here? By the time they try and build everything Dublin needs it will be too late because of over-development. My original point was in Reference to MN being built by 2026. 10 Years after what was proposed in T21. As usual successive govts have picked the cheaper, quicker options just to be seen to be doing something.

Extending the Dart (by 20+ Km) to Balbriggan, instead of starting to electrify the Kildare Route (the same distance would get you to Straffan) is a Farce.

LeinsterDub

McAlban wrote: »

Extending the Dart (by 20+ Km) to Balbriggan, instead of starting to electrify the Kildare Route (the same distance would get you to Straffan) is a Farce.

And without DU the journey time and intervals will be shocking

McAlban

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And without DU the journey time and intervals will be shocking

It wasn't really my point. But the same (roughly) investment would get a second Dart Line from Heuston to Straffan (or at least where the 4 tracking ends at Hazelhatch), It would certainly make DU more viable, yes a repeat of the Luas situation with two disconnected lines. etc. But wouldn't it reap more economic benefits for IR and the public than extending it north on the already congested northern line. Don't get me wrong. I live in Fingal and would get the Dart from Rush & Lusk if / when it opens. But I think Kildare would be money better spent.

Sam Russell

McAlban wrote: »

It wasn't really my point. But the same (roughly) investment would get a second Dart Line from Heuston to Straffan (or at least where the 4 tracking ends at Hazelhatch), It would certainly make DU more viable, yes a repeat of the Luas situation with two disconnected lines. etc. But wouldn't it reap more economic benefits for IR and the public than extending it north on the already congested northern line. Don't get me wrong. I live in Fingal and would get the Dart from Rush & Lusk if / when it opens. But I think Kildare would be money better spent.

Connecting the Dart line from Heuston to the existing one can be achieved through the PPT - just need the electric overheads. They could even keep going to Maynooth and Hazelhatch with the overheads.

Bray Head

I was interested in the thread a while back about involving DAA in the build and/or finance of MN.

It was pointed out that DAA make a lot from parking and MN would eat into this.

I am curious on this point having been in the airport a few days back. How much of the parking business is 'at risk' of displacement by MN? I would think that business travellers in taxis would be more likely displaced to metro.

Also, what about staff? One of the downsides of working at the airport is that bus connections are appalling. Wouldn't MN make the airport an easier place to get people to work (especially for low-skill staff), therefore keeping down costs?

McAlban

I don't think Bus connections are appalling, In fact I'd Say DUB has one of the best bus connections of any site in the country.5 Unless you're on the first or last shift, then I've heard of Issues.

Bray Head

I took the no 16 bus a while back and it took an hour and 50 minutes to reach its terminus on the south side of the city from the airport.

LXFlyer

McAlban wrote: »

I don't think Bus connections are appalling, In fact I'd Say DUB has one of the best bus connections of any site in the country.5 Unless you're on the first or last shift, then I've heard of Issues.

So you consider that having only the R132 (Swords Road corridor) (16 and 41) and Malahide, Portmarnock and Sutton areas (102) served by Dublin Bus directly from the airport as "one of the best bus connections"?

No direct buses from any other area of the northside of Dublin, such as Blanchardstown, Finglas, Ballymun, Glasnevin, Coolock, Clontarf, Raheny, or North County Dublin (Skerries, Rush, Lusk, Donabate, Portrane)??

Any other airport would have a network of local bus services linking it with all of the local areas.

The PSO bus network to/from the airport (or the lack of it) is quite pathetic being honest about it.

There is massive scope for improvement.

But Dublin Bus would be charged by DAA for the use of airport facilities for said PSO services and are as a result reluctant to provide them. You could not make this sort of nonsense up.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I took the no 16 bus a while back and it took an hour and 50 minutes to reach its terminus on the south side of the city from the airport.

That's about right - given that it is a normal stopping service and there are the LUAS works in town, I'd expect about 1:30 - 1:50 depending upon the time of day.

It's a PSO bus service, not an express service.

If you want to get there quicker there is a private alternative along the M50.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

I took the no 16 bus a while back and it took an hour and 50 minutes to reach its terminus on the south side of the city from the airport.

That's about right - given that it is a normal stopping service and there are the LUAS works in town, I'd expect about 1:30 - 1:50 depending upon the time of day.

It's a PSO bus service, not an express service.

If you want to get there quicker there is a private alternative along the M50.

Other European cities manage much quicker times on PSO-type routes.

A substantial minority of this route moves at the pace of a brisk walk. I would put this as a benchmark for pointlessness.