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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )
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Notwithstanding your assertion that the good people of griffith avenue have a god given right to greenery that their near neighbors don't
hop on google maps and take a look at the central median of the ballymun road then compare it to dorset street.
It's barely one lane in places. If you could run a train service up that median without completely taking out other lanes there you could run it up any of the other sites.
Firstly, I didn't assert anything like that, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said that the trees are older and more established on Griffith Avenue, which is objectively true. My concern isn't about the poor poor residents of either area, but that while you can relocate smaller trees, it's basically impossible to do so with larger ones, so the only option would be to kill them all. Not a great option imo.
As for your comparison of Dorset Street to the Ballymun Road - you've (perhaps intentionally) taken a screenshot of one of the minor turning lanes along the central reservation, which ironically handily illustrates that there is indeed about 2 traffic lanes of width to the reservation for most of this road (ie. the grass area ahead of the turning lane). Those kinds of turning lanes would be easily closed up, given that adequate turnaround opportunities exist at bigger junctions along the same road.
Dorset Street has less width on its reservation even *before* you add the turning lanes along that road into account. And that's before you take into account obstacles like this:
You haven't accounted for that stretch of road through Drumcondra where is *no* central reservation. Or how about outside the Cat and Cage pub, which was just recently rescued from congestion thanks to bus lanes being squeezed into the last bit of space? Would you undo that good work?
What about the relative usage of both roads? Ballymun Road is relatively lightly used, whereas Dorset Street/Drumcondra is a major route out of the city towards the M1 or the airport.
There's no comparison, Ballymun Road is a much more sensible route for Metro North.
NIMBY arguments here are bizarre too imo - Ballymun will hugely benefit from having MN running through it.0 -
What about the relative usage of both roads? Ballymun Road is relatively lightly used, whereas Dorset Street/Drumcondra is a major route out of the city towards the M1 or the airport.
There's no comparison, Ballymun Road is a much more sensible route for Metro North.
NIMBY arguments here are bizarre too imo - Ballymun will hugely benefit from having MN running through it.
I've never actually said what form of metro I want to see, on street, under or above. I would be agnostic about the above or below ground options in general but I think any on street section in a built up area is completely mental.
What I'm pointing out is the idea that there is some unique qualities to the ballymun road that makes it ideal for a street level rail system is absolute guff. You have the same issues on the ballymun road as you will on all those other roads, the defining factor is that the planners thought they could get away with saving a few bob going through a council estate, which is why it was only going to surface after it hits DCU
Dorset street has a median running through it that would be rougly the same size as the one that runs up much of the ballymun road, it ends just before your screen shot
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Dorset street has a median running through it that would be rougly the same size as the one that runs up much of the ballymun road, it ends just before your screen shot
It absolutely doesn't - you can't just outright lie when Streetview immediately proves you wrong. Again, the Dorset Street reservation starts in a heavily built-up, heavily trafficked area which can't be easily reached from anywhere and ends about 500m later in the same. It's completely incomparable to Ballymun.
What makes the Ballymun Road so suited to surface running is the space in the median, the relative lack of major junctions, the low traffic density, and the fact that the median runs for a substantial distance out as far as the M50.
But you've failed to address any of the pertinent questions put to you, so I guess you'll just ignore this post too.0 -
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the defining factor is that the planners thought they could get away with saving a few bob going through a council estate, which is why it was only going to surface after it hits DCU
Also, I'll point out that you keep saying this like it's a negative for Ballymun to get Metro North running through it. The benefits for the area would be far outweighed by any possible detrimental effects of surface running.0 -
I've never actually said what form of metro I want to see, on street, under or above. I would be agnostic about the above or below ground options in general but I think any on street section in a built up area is completely mental.
What I'm pointing out is the idea that there is some unique qualities to the ballymun road that makes it ideal for a street level rail system is absolute guff. You have the same issues on the ballymun road as you will on all those other roads, the defining factor is that the planners thought they could get away with saving a few bob going through a council estate, which is why it was only going to surface after it hits DCU
Dorset street has a median running through it that would be rougly the same size as the one that runs up much of the ballymun road, it ends just before your screen shot
Could you please propose a surface route between Dorset St and the Ballymun Road?0 -
To be brutally honest it's this sort of mentality that allows our politicians to build nothing.I've never actually said what form of metro I want to see, on street, under or above. I would be agnostic about the above or below ground options in general but I think any on street section in a built up area is completely mental.
What I'm pointing out is the idea that there is some unique qualities to the ballymun road that makes it ideal for a street level rail system is absolute guff. You have the same issues on the ballymun road as you will on all those other roads, the defining factor is that the planners thought they could get away with saving a few bob going through a council estate, which is why it was only going to surface after it hits DCU
Dorset street has a median running through it that would be rougly the same size as the one that runs up much of the ballymun road, it ends just before your screen shot0 -
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Carawaystick wrote: »
It's an argument that this is a two lane central strip
It absolutely doesn't - you can't just outright lie when Streetview immediately proves you wrong.
Now now matey, a bit less of the accusations of lying if you don't mind. After all you're the chap who initially claimed that "The Ballymun Road has a large (about two traffic lanes wide) central reservation that runs uninterrupted (save for junctions) for an entire 3.2km, all the way from the M50 to Griffith Avenue. "
We both know that's ...ahem.. inaccurate, half the length of that central strip is not two lanes wide. Just follow it on Google maps, it's traffic lanes for mmuch of its lengthThose kinds of turning lanes would be easily closed up, given that adequate turnaround opportunities exist at bigger junctions along the same road.
And now we finally get down the real crux of the matter.
"There'll be loads of space for the metro once we close off most of those junctions and get rid of those traffic lanes " Thats exactly why the locals put the kibosh on it. No doubt most of those pesky pedestrian crossings would have had to go tooCould you please propose a surface route between Dorset St and the Ballymun Road?
I won't and I have no idea why you think I would. My point is you decide to clear out the space to run a metro line up the ballymun road you could run the damn thing up nearly any other two way system on the route, just a matter of what you're willing to remove to make space.0 -
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It's an argument that this is a two lane central strip
Now now matey, a bit less of the accusations of lying if you don't mind. After all you're the chap who initially claimed that "The Ballymun Road has a large (about two traffic lanes wide) central reservation that runs uninterrupted (save for junctions) for an entire 3.2km, all the way from the M50 to Griffith Avenue. "
We both know that's ...ahem.. inaccurate, half the length of that central strip is not two lanes wide. Just follow it on Google maps, it's traffic lanes for mmuch of its length
And now we finally get down the real crux of the matter. "There'll be loads of space for the metro once we close off most of those junctions and get rid of those traffic lanes " Thats exactly why the locals put the kibosh on it. No doubt most of those pesky pedestrian crossings would have had to go too
I won't and I have no idea why you think I would. My point is you decide to clear out the space to run a metro line up the ballymun road you could run the damn thing up nearly any other two way system on the route, just a matter of what you're willing to remove to make space.
You would make a great politician.0 -
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I don't need to look at Streetview for the Ballymun Road, or indeed Dorset Street and Drumcondra because I know the roads really well, but anyone here can take a look and see that there's plenty of space (and again, your Streetview screenshot confirms its "about two traffic lanes wide") on the median of Ballymun Road, a road that has only maybe two major junctions for most of that stretch. Closing all the minor junctions is something they'll have to do, but if the argument is between that or running a really expensive tunnel, it seems like a small price to pay.Your attempts to suggest that other roads in the area heading in a similar direction would be equal in impact is just not truthful.
Where did I suggest that it would be "equal in impact"? That the second time you've thrown the accusation of lying around and to be truthful it's not something you'd do in person now is it? A bit less of that carry on if you will.
But lets revisit this central strip of yours, you claim its mostly two lanes wide like this:
But the truth is that its like this for much of its length, basically a footpath:
Now perhaps you can explain how you're getting two lanes of traffic down those central footpaths that show up every 50-100 feet?
Of course you already have, take those car lanes away and close junctions that you think are minor (and you know this road well?) Those junctions were'nt put there just for fun. That is why the above ground option was nixed. And the good city of dublin was saved a colossal balls up, running a metro at ground level through a built up area is loony tunes planning.I think we can all agree that running the metro on the surface through ballymun is a bad idea , but can anyone explain why , the metro is be put in a tunnel in and around the airport.
You would like to imagine so but you do get lads who get excited about this class of idea like its some sort of hornby set Is it planned to run underground to the airport? Perhaps due to chronic congestion in the fields around St Margarets and Dardistown? 0 -
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And now we finally get down the real crux of the matter. "There'll be loads of space for the metro once we close off most of those junctions and get rid of those traffic lanes " Thats exactly why the locals put the kibosh on it. No doubt most of those pesky pedestrian crossings would have had to go too
The residents objected to the original elevated metro as they didn't want to be overlooked! Right turns could have been preserved under it..0 -
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It's a right turning lane, easily removed. <snip>. Anyone who knows either road will tell you that Ballymun is wider and the building line is much further back.
I thought we debating that there was a central reservation running down the ballymun road thats so wide you could run a couple of train lines down it Apparently its now a question of which road is wider, sure while you're moving those junctions we can shift a few goalposts i suppose.
But lets entertain the building line idea. Do you mean there's a wide pedestrian area between the road and the properties? There sure is on certain lengths of the Ballymun road, but as you've previously noted, pedestrian areas should remain untouched. (Although the central median on the Ballymun road is almost entirely for pedestrians soo...
)The trees on the side of griffith avenue are an entirely different prospect, you'd be taking pedestrian space away for a wider road, the central reserve on Dorset Street is narrow and only 300m long.
So are pedestrian areas on the table for our hornby set plan now?The residents objected to the original elevated metro as they didn't want to be overlooked! Right turns could have been preserved under it..
As previously stated, I'm agnostic about the elevated option, if it was done right then it could work very well. That said, the railway bridge over the Liffey stands as a reminder as to the hazards of that approach I guess0 -
I thought we debating that there was a central reservation running down the ballymun road thats so wide you could run a couple of train lines down it Apparently its now a question of which road is wider, sure while you're moving those junctions we can shift a few goalposts i suppose.
You've moved the goalposts several times yourself - you originally started this argument by suggesting that there's nothing unique about the Ballymun Road that makes it particularly suited to running a street-level Metro through it. You suggested that, and I quote "dorset street, drumcondra, griffith avenue, and glasnevin. All of which have roads that have a similar amount of space to the ballymun road". Several people have now pointed out how that is very inaccurate. The two lane thing is a red herring that you've latched onto (you'll note that I originally only said vaguely "about two lanes" as an estimate).
Note that we're operating from a premise that a certain amount of street-level running must exist in order for MN to be affordable; I'm sure all of us here would prefer that it was fully underground or grade-separated.0 -
I thought we debating that there was a central reservation running down the ballymun road thats so wide you could run a couple of train lines down it Apparently its now a question of which road is wider, sure while you're moving those junctions we can shift a few goalposts i suppose.
But lets entertain the building line idea. Do you mean there's a wide pedestrian area between the road and the properties? There sure is on certain lengths of the Ballymun road, but as you've previously noted, pedestrian areas should remain untouched. (Although the central median on the Ballymun road is almost entirely for pedestrians soo...)
So are pedestrian areas on the table for our hornby set plan now?
As previously stated, I'm agnostic about the elevated option, if it was done right then it could work very well. That said, the railway bridge over the Liffey stands as a reminder as to the hazards of that approach I guess
Can you propose a route for metro north via dorset st? since there's just as much space as there is on the Ballymun Road.0 -
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