Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

dmeehan

If the "Metro Link" is going to run on (some of) the Luas Green Line alignment what does this mean for the Luas on this section? I assume they are not going to share.

BonnieSituation

FunkyDa2 wrote: »

Dropping myself on to Dunville Avenue, on Google Streetview, and looking up and down that nice straight stretch of line, it does not appear to my (untrained) eye that there could be enough room for four lines (the two into the tunnel, and then the Green Line tracks)

I would be too cos that's not where I meant at all. Please hold...

BonnieSituation

FunkyDa2 wrote: »

Dropping myself on to Dunville Avenue, on Google Streetview, and looking up and down that nice straight stretch of line, it does not appear to my (untrained) eye that there could be enough room for four lines (the two into the tunnel, and then the Green Line tracks)

Milltown. Around Patrick Doyle road.

All supposition of course.

marno21

MOD:

Metro Link was announced today as a revised version of the New Metro North project.

The full details will be published this quarter with routes, alignments etc.

The project was only announced today. No further discussion of when/if it'll be cancelled, or how it'll be kicked down the road. It's 6 hours since the project was committed to and a full funding schedule was published. I think we can do without the cynical comments for the moment.

Discussion of Metrolink only. Political issues elsewhere

strassenwo!f

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's a familiar "so-called route". Where's Strassenwolf with the contrition?

I don't think contrition would be appropriate.

Until today, we were all under the impression that the Dart underground project had been merely deferred, but would be built at some stage. Thus, the original plan of a link between DART and metro at St. Stephen's Green (or, as I would have preferred, at a pedestrianized College Green) was still very much on the table. In other words, a link further west than the current DART line.

We now know, as of today, that the DART Underground project has been officially binned, sadly, by not being included in this plan. So, if there is going to be a metro it is clear that it can only now interchange with DART at Connolly Station, Tara Street Station or Pearse Station.

None of this was known to most of us, including me, on the board. We were working from the official position that the cross-city DART line would, at some stage, go ahead. It appears it now won't, at least before 2040.

There is thus no reason to be contrite.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We now know, as of today, that the DART Underground project has been officially binned, sadly, by not being included in this plan. So, if there is going to be a metro it is clear that it can only now interchange with DART at Connolly Station, Tara Street Station or Pearse Station.

I'm not sure that's my reading of the situation. I think we are doing the classic half ass it. Much like the roundabouts on the M50 half the capacity with but most of the destinations. Only this time it won't cost us twice as much to fix in the long term

CarlosHarpic

marno21 wrote: »

MOD:

Metro Link was announced today as a revised version of the New Metro North project.

The full details will be published this quarter with routes, alignments etc.

The project was only announced today. No further discussion of when/if it'll be cancelled, or how it'll be kicked down the road. It's 6 hours since the project was committed to and a full funding schedule was published. I think we can do without the cynical comments for the moment.

Discussion of Metrolink only. Political issues elsewhere

History has proven this wrong in the past and it's only right people are cynical. At the end of the day - by their own words - Dublin will have NOTHING until 2027. That's optimistic too.

People on here are fully justified in being deeply cynical. Detailed plans and ring fenced funding are completely arbitrary concepts in this country.

marno21

CarlosHarpic wrote: »

History has proven this wrong in the past and it's only right people are cynical. At the end of the day - by their own words - Dublin will have NOTHING until 2027. That's optimistic too.

People on here are fully justified in being deeply cynical. Detailed plans and ring fenced funding are completely arbitrary concepts in this country.

Cynicism is justified when a project is deferred. The project was announced and funding was allocated today.

Feel free to get cynical when the project is deferred. Today is the last day to be cynical

strassenwo!f

If there's no mention of it in a major public relations exercise, like today's, you can take it that it has been binned.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

If there's no mention of it in a major public relations exercise, like today's, you can take it that it has been binned.

It was mentioned. Several times.

Bray Head

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Milltown. Around Patrick Doyle road.

All supposition of course.

You beat me to it. I think this is the only location there can really be a tunnel portal.

a) Today it has been confirmed that there is to be shared running between Metrolink and Luas between Sandyford and an unspecified point further north. The frequency will be very heavy on this stretch. The alignment between Milltown and Charlemont has very little empty space alongside it to facilitate a tunnel portal. So you would have to CPO some of the most expensive real estate in the country and risk legal challenge and delay.
b) The stretch between Milltown and Charlemont has several level crossings which are not consistent with very heavy running. Less of a problem south of Milltown and stations are also further apart there too. If you want to maximise capacity it is better to split the running further south.
c) There is unused green area south of Patrick Doyle Road. The metrolink line would need a parallel (lower bridge*) across the Dodder and there would then be a tunnel portal on the north bank. This would only mean CPOing two houses one of which has institutional use I think.
I've done this out in an image here, also attached. 

There are then two options if the tunnel portal is at Milltown.
1) Shadow the green line as far as OCS with maybe two stops along the way. This would be very fast but to some extent would duplicate Luas cross city.
2) Send the line west with maybe stops at Rathmines, Christchurch before heading NE to follow the original MN route. This would add time but would pick up a new catchment entirely.
*I would propose to call it the Garret FitzGerald Bridge, in honour of the local man who correctly worked out 20 years ago that the Luas needed to go underground.

cojamocork

I'm very concerned how much the southern section would undermine the Luas Cross City, essentially cutting in into Sandyford to Bride's Glen and Charlemont to Broombrige and a potential duplication along the way. Would it make more sense to divert south of Charlemont towards Ballsbridge area and under the Stillorgan road, via UCD and connecting with existing Luas Green Line at Sandyford. This would open up access to a v busy artery of the city, open up UCD and avoid duplication.

LeinsterDub

cojamocork wrote: »

I'm very concerned how much the southern section would undermine the Luas Cross City, essentially cutting in into Sandyford to Bride's Glen and Charlemont to Broombrige and a potential duplication along the way. Would it make more sense to divert south of Charlemont towards Ballsbridge area and under the Stillorgan road, via UCD and connecting with existing Luas Green Line at Sandyford. This would open up access to a v busy artery of the city, open up UCD and avoid duplication.

Would cost billions extra.

FunkyDa2

Bray Head wrote: »

You beat me to it. I think this is the only location there can really be a tunnel portal.

a) Today it has been confirmed that there is to be shared running between Metrolink and Luas between Sandyford and an unspecified point further north. The frequency will be very heavy on this stretch. The alignment between Milltown and Charlemont has very little empty space alongside it to facilitate a tunnel portal. So you would have to CPO some of the most expensive real estate in the country and risk legal challenge and delay.
b) The stretch between Milltown and Charlemont has several level crossings which are not consistent with very heavy running. Less of a problem south of Milltown and stations are also further apart there too. If you want to maximise capacity it is better to split the running further south.
c) There is unused green area south of Patrick Doyle Road. The metrolink line would need a parallel (lower bridge*) across the Dodder and there would then be a tunnel portal on the north bank. This would only mean CPOing two houses one of which has institutional use I think.
I've done this out in an image here, also attached. 

There are then two options if the tunnel portal is at Milltown.
1) Shadow the green line as far as OCS with maybe two stops along the way. This would be very fast but to some extent would duplicate Luas cross city.
2) Send the line west with maybe stops at Rathmines, Christchurch before heading NE to follow the original MN route. This would add time but would pick up a new catchment entirely.
*I would propose to call it the Garret FitzGerald Bridge, in honour of the local man who correctly worked out 20 years ago that the Luas needed to go underground.

I know tunneling with a TBM is expensive. Having tunneled parallel to the existing Green Line as far as Milltown purely to enable the Metro to run up on to the existing track for the last 2.5 kilometres out to Sandyford, what would that saving be vs bearing southeast from SSG(by tunnel) towards Donnybrook?(where there are many green spaces for station box construction). From there, you head south to UCD(a trip generator?), and then on down to Sandyford.

hmmm

Metro whateveritscalled without DART underground makes no sense, it's just yet another isolated line and a new type of public transport that links to random things. We can call it integrated all we want but it isn't.

Zebra3

strassenwo!f wrote: »

So, if there is going to be a metro it is clear that it can only now interchange with DART at Connolly Station, Tara Street Station or Pearse Station.

And Drumcondra.

strassenwo!f

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It was mentioned. Several times.

Unfortunately, being outside Ireland, I haven't had a chance to read any of the speeches or to look at a video of the presentation in Sligo. I'm basing my understanding of this plan on what has been reported in the mainstream media.

To date, I've seen only that the metro is planned. I haven't seen any mention of the DART Underground project being included in this capital investment plan. It may have been mentioned in the presentation of this plan, and I've currently no reason to doubt what you say, but has it been included? From my reading, it hasn't been.

plodder

salmocab wrote: »

Anyone any idea how deep a tbm gets from the surface in the first say 100 mts. I presume they dig a trench and drop it in?

That's what they did with the Port Tunnel. They dug a big hole (53m diam x 30m deep) at the football field in Whitehall and dropped them in.

fionnsci

hmmm wrote: »

Metro whateveritscalled without DART underground makes no sense, it's just yet another isolated line and a new type of public transport that links to random things. We can call it integrated all we want but it isn't.

Linking north Dublin, the airport, the city centre and Sandyford with a fast, high capacity service makes a huge amount of sense I would think, independent of anything else.

LeinsterDub

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Unfortunately, being outside Ireland, I haven't had a chance to read any of the speeches or to look at a video of the presentation in Sligo. I'm basing my understanding of this plan on what has been reported in the mainstream media.

To date, I've seen only that the metro is planned. I haven't seen any mention of the DART Underground project being included in this capital investment plan. It may have been mentioned in the presentation of this plan, and I've currently no reason to doubt what you say, but has it been included? From my reading, it hasn't been.

It was in the documentation. I understand if you've not had a chance to read it. I've barely skimmed it.

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Metro whateveritscalled without DART underground makes no sense, it's just yet another isolated line and a new type of public transport that links to random things. We can call it integrated all we want but it isn't.

In isolated except for the Green line to Broombridge and Bride's Glen/Bray, the Red line and a short walk to Tara St

Montpelier Hill

Rather than the metro terminate at Sandyford, how about it continues on the old Harcourt Street alignment alongside the race course terminating at Carrickmines?

strassenwo!f

Zebra3 wrote: »

And Drumcondra.

Yes, absolutely, my mistake for the omission.

That doesn't seem to be what is planned, under this new proposal, but you are entirely right.

hmmm

fionnsci wrote: »

Linking north Dublin, the airport, the city centre and Sandyford with a fast, high capacity service makes a huge amount of sense I would think, independent of anything else.

Without the East West connections it is just a way for southsiders to get to and from the airport. DART underground is what turns this into a piece of national infrastructure, which also facilitates the enormous populations now in West Dublin and surrounding commuter towns.

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Without the East West connections it is just a way for southsiders to get to and from the airport. DART underground is what turns this into a piece of national infrastructure, which also facilitates the enormous populations now in West Dublin and surrounding commuter towns.

Without the East West connections it is just a way for northsiders to get to and from coppers .

Grandeeod

A quick question. Has Luas cross city as built affected the building of the original MN plan? Many moons ago on this thread it was suggested that unless certain measures were taken MN could not be built as planned unless things such as station boxes were built into luas cross city or BXD as its called. Basically a case of cross city having to be rebuilt if measures weren't included.

LeinsterDub

Grandeeod wrote: »

A quick question. Has Luas cross city as built affected the building of the original MN plan? Many moons ago on this thread it was suggested that unless certain measures were taken MN could not be built as planned unless things such as station boxes were built into luas cross city or BXD as its called. Basically a case of cross city having to be rebuilt if measures weren't included.

All things can be overcome. It just might be a hell of a lot more expensive.

jd

Zebra3 wrote: »

And Drumcondra.

It looks it will be at Tara Street and Drumcondra.
If DU was built that would be two intwrchanges on the same line

MJohnston

Bray Head wrote: »

a) Today it has been confirmed that there is to be shared running between Metrolink and Luas between Sandyford and an unspecified point further north.

Where was this confirmed? Because we've all been presuming it'll be Luas from Sandyford to Bride's Glen (and eventually onto Bray) only, there won't be any Luas trams between Sandyford and wherever the Metro Link tunnel surfaces. I don't think we'll see any shared running, but if you've seen this confirmed somewhere, could you share?

Bray Head

MJohnston wrote: »

Where was this confirmed? Because we've all been presuming it'll be Luas from Sandyford to Bride's Glen (and eventually onto Bray) only, there won't be any Luas trams between Sandyford and wherever the Metro Link tunnel surfaces. I don't think we'll see any shared running, but if you've seen this confirmed somewhere, could you share?

This is what the Capital Plan says:
a light rail system from Swords, via Dublin Airport to Dublin’s south city centre (operating in tunnel under the city centre) and onwards to Sandyford using the existing LUAS Green Line to ensure that growth along this corridor can be accommodated. This will provide Dublin with a high capacity, high frequency cross-city rail corridor, serving critical destinations such as Swords, Dublin Airport, Dublin City University, Ballymun, the Mater Hospital and existing destinations along the LUAS Green Line to Sandyford. Metro Link will provide faster reliable journey times to and from these key destinations while offering interchange with other rail, DART Expansion, light rail and bus services.
To me this inevitably means shared running between Metro Link and the Luas. As I said in my post you cannot really have high-capacity, high-frequency on the stretch north of Milltown due to the level crossings and proximity of stations. Also, the options for a tunnel portal are very restricted.

In the mid-2030s the current Luas Green line would be something like this
Bray=>Sandyford: Luas only
Sandyford=>[some point between Milltown and Charlemont]=>Luas and Metro Link shared running
[some point between Milltown and Charlemont]=>Finglas: Luas only

I am sceptical that Metro will ever go further south than Sandyford. The alignment is too twisty and interacts too often with traffic to support high-frequency running.

Achasanai

Doubling the LUAS green line with the Metro seems like a bit of a waste. I get that it would be more expensive to go a new route, but surely it would have a greater impact on congestion and could allow for some specific high rise developments elsewhere? There's a substantial gap in rail transport on the south side (if you must have it there) through Harolds Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham.

Bray Head

Achasanai wrote: »

Doubling the LUAS green line with the Metro seems like a bit of a waste. I get that it would be more expensive to go a new route, but surely it would have a greater impact on congestion and could allow for some specific high rise developments elsewhere? There's a substantial gap in rail transport on the south side (if you must have it there) through Harolds Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham.

The alignment between Milltown and Sandyford is under-utilised at the moment. This is because the northern and southern ends of the Green line are limited by level crossings, sharing with traffic, twists in the alignment, etc. This reduces throughput and means the Milltown to Sandyford section is under capacity, even if the rest of it isn't.

So shared running between Luas and Metrolink on this stretch is a sensible way to best utilise existing capacity.

Granted there is a SW corridor (Harold's X, Terenure and out to Knocklyon) that is currently very badly served by PT.

lateconnection

There will be no shared running between Luas and Metro on the Green Line.



Page 148 of the submissions to the public consultation for the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016-2035, TII makes a submission, and states:

"TII advise that service patterns consisting of Metro running from Bray to Swords and Luas Green
Line running from Ranelagh to Finglas to be given detailed consideration"

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Consultation_Submissions_Report_1.pdf


Obviously we now know that Metro won't run all the way to Bray, but it looks like the Charlemont-Sandyford section will be exclusively for Metro, north of Charlemont for Luas and south of Sandyford for Luas.

Achasanai

Bray Head wrote: »

The alignment between Milltown and Sandyford is under-utilised at the moment. This is because the northern and southern ends of the Green line are limited by level crossings, sharing with traffic, twists in the alignment, etc. This reduces throughput and means the Milltown to Sandyford section is under capacity, even if the rest of it isn't.

I'm probably not understanding this right, but that section would be overground (for the Metro), right? Would they not have to fix all those things to make the Metro and Luas run to capacity?

Or will the Metro be underground all the way to Sandyford?

Either way, and again I get that it would increase the budget exponentially, developing some sort of dedicated public transport network through Harolds Cross/Terenure/Rathfarnham would surely have similar levels of usage as the Green Line, as well as some green areas that could be developed as high density residential areas.

edit: just read lateconnection's post. Interesting.

Shedite27

Bray Head wrote: »

As I said in my post you cannot really have high-capacity, high-frequency on the stretch north of Milltown due to the level crossings and proximity of stations. Also, the options for a tunnel portal are very restricted.

I take your point about the tunnel options, but the level crossing is an easy fix by dipping the road at Beechwood under the line (or raising the line).

marno21

There will be no shared running between the Metro and the Luas. The two stubs at either end will become lines in their own right with planned extensions to Finglas and Bray. The net result will be two busy tram services at either end with the southern part feeding into a high capacity rapid transit system.

The Luas Green Line in its current setup is totally insufficient. What's about to happen is what should've happened day 1, so thankfully it seems to be progressing.

lawred2

lateconnection wrote: »

There will be no shared running between Luas and Metro on the Green Line.



Page 148 of the submissions to the public consultation for the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016-2035, TII makes a submission, and states:

"TII advise that service patterns consisting of Metro running from Bray to Swords and Luas Green
Line running from Ranelagh to Finglas to be given detailed consideration"

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Consultation_Submissions_Report_1.pdf


Obviously we now know that Metro won't run all the way to Bray, but it looks like the Charlemont-Sandyford section will be exclusively for Metro, north of Charlemont for Luas and south of Sandyford for Luas.

So two changes if going from Bray to the airport?

Donegal Storm

lawred2 wrote: »

So two changes if going from Bray to the airport?

One change surely? Metro will go straight from Sandyford to the airport

Sam Russell

lawred2 wrote: »

So two changes if going from Bray to the airport?

Change at Sandyford. Where is the second?

If Bray to Maynooth is the new route for Dart from Bray, you could change at Drumcondra (assuming that Metroling (formerly MN) has a stop there. Of course you would have to wait for Dart Underground to be built, by which time you might have grown very old.

lawred2

Sam Russell wrote: »

Change at Sandyford. Where is the second?

If Bray to Maynooth is the new route for Dart from Bray, you could change at Drumcondra (assuming that Metroling (formerly MN) has a stop there. Of course you would have to wait for Dart Underground to be built, by which time you might have grown very old.

Then two changes for Bray to town? It's one or the other

Peregrine

lawred2 wrote: »

Then two changes for Bray to town? It's one or the other

What?

Metro from Airport to Sandyford. Change to Luas from Sandyford to Bray.

If Dart Underground gets built: DART from Bray to Drumcondra and change to Metro from Drumcondra to Airport.

lawred2

Peregrine wrote: »

What?

Metro from Airport to Sandyford. Change to Luas from Sandyford to Bray.

It's either two changes if going from Bray to the airport or two changes if going from Bray to Town?

No?

Obviously the Dart already connects Bray direct to town ..

However let's say you're coming from Cherrywood? Is that now going to be two stops into town?

salmocab

Well still one change as the metro will have stops in town it’s not an express

lawred2

salmocab wrote: »

Well still one change as the metro will have stops in town it’s not an express

Right.. so the luas will in effect terminate at Charlemont?

For some that is obviously going to be a reduction in service

Peregrine

lawred2 wrote: »

It's either two changes if going from Bray to the airport or two changes if going from Bray to Town?

No?

Obviously the Dart already connects Bray direct to town ..

However let's say you're coming from Cherrywood? Is that now going to be two stops into town?

Could you explain where the other change would be?

Luas from Cherrywood to Sandyford. Metro from Sandyford to SSG or somewhere else in the city centre. Still one change.

salmocab

lawred2 wrote: »

Right.. so the luas will in effect terminate at Charlemont?

For some that is obviously going to be a reduction in service

From the north side yes, but the metro will have various stops in the city Centre which will bring people out to probably Sandyford directly. It’s going to be a better system but people will have to make one change if coming or going out past Sandyford or wherever it finishes. That said wait times will be low probably no more than 3/4 minutes at peak

G_R

lawred2 wrote: »

Right.. so the luas will in effect terminate at Charlemont?

For some that is obviously going to be a reduction in service

They can switch to a metro and get into town quicker. With frequencies at 2.5 mins they won't be waiting long.

The only people who would conceivably have a reduction in service is some one going from the current green line north of Parnell, say, going some where on the green line South of Charlemount where there is no metro stop. And even then, given how slowly Luas crosses through the city, I'm not convinced it wouldn't be quicker to change anyway!

Donegal Storm

lawred2 wrote: »

Right.. so the luas will in effect terminate at Charlemont?

For some that is obviously going to be a reduction in service

Really not getting your point here?

Metro goes through the city centre so its still Bray - Sandyford then metro into the city...

bk

Yes, as Irish people we really aren't use to changing between trams/metros/trains but really it is completely normal on any European transport network. For instance it is totally normal to change every day between trains on the London Underground and New York Subway.

As we get more of a high quality public transport network, changing like this will become the norm. It ends up giving you overall faster journey times and overall greater network efficiency.

D.L.R.

lawred2 wrote: »

Right.. so the luas will in effect terminate at Charlemont?

For some that is obviously going to be a reduction in service

Metro will mean a vastly better service for most Green line users.