FFXIII - First Impressions *probable spoilers*

bokkenspiel

just proving that ff13 is the best

joe123

GothPunk wrote: »

Then press R1 to bring up the enemy info screen - you can see how much HP the enemy has remaining and it's total HP there.

No I mean, I attack with Thunder....I cant see how much damage it does as theres a load of other numbers on top of it so they get all mixed up during it attacks. Its VERY hard make out how much damage your taking with each attack.

More annoying than having to re-jig your accessories and weapons after a battle team change like in other FF games and JRPGs?

How often do you do that? Come on in FF games you usually come across a new weapon every two hours or so. And yes I liked equiping new weapons etc seeing their new effects/damage/what they look like. Besides you still have to equip in this! And the bloody leveling up weapons isnt all that!

Fair enough, but I would have thought most JRPG fans have gotten used to this system by now from playing Persona 3 etc. This is why the paradigm system is so good, because it makes the AI work the way you want it to. It rewards you for using Libra, setting and using the right paradigms. It's not like you're sitting there praying for Hope to use Thundara; if you've used Libra and you have him set as Ravager he'll be using Thunder and Thundara where appropriate. The paradigm system gives you control over your party, just not direct control. Besides, the battle system is too fast paced for you to be able to control more than one character.

But for most mob fights as you trawl through the narrow corridors you just do the same thing over and over waiting for your party to slowy grind down the enemy using the same paradigm then switching to the other paradigm.Usually a fight consists of the same two every fight.

It does the each member view once per battle and then the single character focus each subsequent time. Sure your ATB is usually filling up whilst it does the paradigm shift camera animation so it's not like you're missing out on game time while it happens.

I could of sworn it happens every time I change paradigms in a fight. The only time I can skip the animation is when im in the air.Its bloody tedious seeing the same animation over and over.

If there is one thing that the FFXIII battle system is most definitely not, is boring. The paradigm system keeps you on the edge of your seat when you're fighting any half way difficult enemy. Constantly juggling buffers, debuffers, chain builders, tank/mage combo's etc is what makes the battle system so much fun.

Well this is where we just have to disaggree. I found it pretty boring selecting the same options over and over. Id find myself just tapping A constantly during a fight. I used to like how I could select Thundaga then use a different attack next time round. In this all it consists of is....**tap a tap a tap a tap a press lb select decimation tap a press lb back to relentless assault....zzzzz....And not wanting to change my party because I couldnt face setting up paradigms again. If they let you save more than 6 and stop resetting them then maybe it wouldnt of been so bad.

There's also the fact that unlike most FF games, status effects actually mean something and can impact battle, and not every enemy is weak to a specific element, but sometimes a specific debuff. The Eidolon battles and the Juggernauts are an example of what I mean by this. Based on your skill a battle can last 30 seconds or five minutes. In fact the entire game is structured so that you win battles by having the right strategy and knowing the enemies weakness and executing it all quickly.

No pretty much every battle I had id start with a sab/Com/syn. Id have casted deprotect and imperil so their weak, my party would have haste and then all id do is have to switch to relentless assault. Some fights you knew youd win but they just lasted too long.

Each weapon has unique status effects and such, and becomes much more powerful as you upgrade them. So you could very easily change your weapon, spend your upgrade items and end up with something kickass and very different from the starter equipment.

It wasnt as easy as that though. To upgrade your weapons properly you need a hell of a lot of gill. Gill that you will never get untill your able to take on the admantoise to actually recover decent spoils to sell.

I can see why someone like you who has stated their love for grinding and over leveling their characters would hate the Crystarium system, but I think it works. By enforcing a level cap throughout the game it makes battles more interesting and challenging. I think it's a much better way to achieve this than what Persona 3 or Lost Odyssey have used.

Maybe as I hate with a passion the way Oblivion and Fallout etc have introduced this enemy scaling/levelling up with you. But in ffxiii it just held you down because the game didnt want you getting to powerfull. In my eyes the game should reward those willing to put in the effort to grind.

Your complaints seem to be focused on wanting Final Fantasy games to stick to a specific formula. This is a terrible thing to wish for. If there's one thing that'll kill a game series for sure, it is sticking to a very specific formula. It's like those people who complain when every FPS isn't like Call of Duty.

The fact that the Final Fantasy games are always trying something different is what keeps bringing me back to the games. Whilst I'm sure they upset a few die hard fans, I'm surprised at how many people I know or on my PSN friends list who haven't played a JRPG in a really long time or don't like JRPGs and yet they bought FFXIII and are loving it. JRPGs need these new fans.

Do you know what I hear them praising? The excellent fast paced battle system.

Well if it makes any difference I loved the gambit system in FFxii and that was a complete overhaul on 10. Saying that the best system imo was ix where it was strategic and i loved how you could learn abilities from weapons.

To be honest I dont care if new fans like the new battle system. I found it boring and repetitive. People might find that ff10 or 9 boring and repetitive but sure no one agrees on everything.

Mr. K

I'm on Chapter 11 and I like just about everything about the game. Feeling a bit lost at the moment though, since the area I'm in is

so vast compared to the straight roads I've been following up to now

. Is that even a spoiler?! Anyway, I expect this to rank among my favourite FF games, unless it all goes pear-shaped after this point!

bugs

All in all i find the battle system quite good but .....
I don't mind that the AI controls your team-mates but its become clear that on occasion they prioritise their actions in ways you might not want.
For example, a low HP character suffering with deprotect will always get cure thrown at them before esuna, and in certain cases removing the deprotect would have been far more beneficial.

Similar to FF12, it would have been nice to have been able to interrupt your team and force them to change their current turn action.
More often than not i find i have to switch to a paradigm that will give me the option to throw out the required debuff, but its hardly the best option.

CodeMonkey

joe123 wrote: »

I could of sworn it happens every time I change paradigms in a fight. The only time I can skip the animation is when im in the air.Its bloody tedious seeing the same animation over and over.

You always see the change paradigm animation the first time you change paradigm in a fight. I see it as penalty for not being able to kill thrash monsters with your default paradigm. The game has a very strong emphasis on fast kills and battles.

Changing paradigm though recharges your atb and you can use this to your advantage in a tough fight. Highlight the paradigm you want to change to, wait til your character finishes the current attacks, switch, and instant full atb.

Well this is where we just have to disaggree. I found it pretty boring selecting the same options over and over. Id find myself just tapping A constantly during a fight. I used to like how I could select Thundaga then use a different attack next time round. In this all it consists of is....**tap a tap a tap a tap a press lb select decimation tap a press lb back to relentless assault....zzzzz....And not wanting to change my party because I couldnt face setting up paradigms again. If they let you save more than 6 and stop resetting them then maybe it wouldnt of been so bad.

The system also rewards you with fast kills. If they're no challenge then stop fighting thrash monsters and stop grinding. The problem is you love old fashioned jrpgs where you need to grind and you feel like you have to kill everything. Most monsters you can run past.

It wasnt as easy as that though. To upgrade your weapons properly you need a hell of a lot of gill. Gill that you will never get untill your able to take on the admantoise to actually recover decent spoils to sell.

I've done next to no grinding and only looked into upgrading weapons at chapter 12. I was able to upgrade at least 2 weapons to maxed out tier 2.

Maybe as I hate with a passion the way Oblivion and Fallout etc have introduced this enemy scaling/levelling up with you. But in ffxiii it just held you down because the game didnt want you getting to powerfull. In my eyes the game should reward those willing to put in the effort to grind.

Why? Grinding is not fun.

joe123

CodeMonkey wrote: »

You always see the change paradigm animation the first time you change paradigm in a fight. I see it as penalty for not being able to kill thrash monsters with your default paradigm. The game has a very strong emphasis on fast kills and battles.

Changing paradigm though recharges your atb and you can use this to your advantage in a tough fight. Highlight the paradigm you want to change to, wait til your character finishes the current attacks, switch, and instant full atb.


The system also rewards you with fast kills. If they're no challenge then stop fighting thrash monsters and stop grinding. The problem is you love old fashioned jrpgs where you need to grind and you feel like you have to kill everything. Most monsters you can run past.

I've done next to no grinding and only looked into upgrading weapons at chapter 12. I was able to upgrade at least 2 weapons to maxed out tier 2.


Why? Grinding is not fun.

Lol. If you can get through monsters without changing paradigms then you are doing something I clearly couldnt. I was maxed out and still had to switch paradigms or else fights would just go on ages. You could still beat the monster but instead of making the fight last 30 seconds it would last 2 minutes.

Im assuming your not as far into the game or else your not quite saying it how it is regards you able to get fast kills.

Grinding can be fun at times im not saying all the time. But this game basically doesnt really need you to grind as usually once the crystarium expands you can max it out. As long as you didnt avoid any fights in your path in ff13 youd have no problem.

CodeMonkey

joe123 wrote: »

Lol. If you can get through monsters without changing paradigms then you are doing something I clearly couldnt. I was maxed out and still had to switch paradigms or else fights would just go on ages. You could still beat the monster but instead of making the fight last 30 seconds it would last 2 minutes.

Im assuming your not as far into the game or else your not quite saying it how it is regards you able to get fast kills.

Grinding can be fun at times im not saying all the time. But this game basically doesnt really need you to grind as usually once the crystarium expands you can max it out. As long as you didnt avoid any fights in your path in ff13 youd have no problem.

I didn't say you don't have to change paradigms. I've finished the game without maxing out any crystarium paths for anyone. Only need to change paradigms on a regular basis when I got to chapter 11. It's only a must against the harder monsters in chapter 12 and 13.

All I am saying is that the game encourages you in a lot of ways to get fast kills.

jamescd

Finally got all the achievements w00t I was kinda worried I missed some accessories for the treasure hunter achievement so I was really happy when I got it. And jesus Long Gui is one tough bugger, took me a lot of tries to finally take one down for the achievement.

Xluna

Bah, I need a break from this. I'm going back to Lost Odyssey for awhile-a real Final Fantasy game.:p

BeansBeans

I was really loving it but at the end of Chapter 6 now and its just too bloody disjointed. Come on for ffs stop splitting people up! Very linear but still great stuf. Now if they would get the story moving a bit faster. I love the graphics its beautiful looking. Love the new combat system too its brilliant. But i get the feeling squeenix were trying to be too clever with the story or something

johnny_ultimate

Hitting the 20 hour mark now, and still not sure what my feelings are. I definitely don't hate it (the battle system is too good for that), but that are times when I definitely don't particularly like it either.

The battle system is being rightly praised. When it works, it works great. While most battles can be won by simply mixing Commando and Ravenger skills (with a medic when needed) it still is fun, especially on those bits when you're outnumbered, and strategy comes into play. Yeah, you can more or less automate the repetitive bits (which in a way is a good thing - I'm glad I only have to press auto-battle rather than the water command four times) but there is strategy. The only class I consider a serious dud is Sentinel (I ****ing hate sentinel class :pac:) but in general the characters act as they should. There were moments in Persona 3, for example, when lack of control meant an ally helped me lose a battle. That doesn't happen here - if a specific character is in serious danger, the medic will help. All you need to do is be in the right paradigm.

That said...

I still feel the game's pacing is all-off. Being forced to switch teams so often - and customised paradigms switching too, which is infuriating - makes it hard for me to relate and get used to the characters. I think the Lightning / Fang / Hope combo works for me, so it annoys me when I have to go back to Razh and Vanille. It does get you used to all the characters, but I am looking forward to being able to customise my party - it shouldn't take longer than twenty hours to get to that point.

The story has some poignant moments, and yes I am growing to like some of the characters despite my initial misgivings. Story still seems unfocused though - the lack of a clear villain so far

(alright, they have just introduced a character who may take that role)

and indeed a clear protagonist (clearly meant to be Lightning, but honestly haven't had enough time with her to call her that yet) is off-putting. Really, and I'll repeat a point above, it shouldn't take twenty hours to start liking a character. That is pretty clunky storytelling.

I do agree the art-design and soundtrack are fantastic. Yet there are limits - everything is pre-defined, which can be frustrating. The repetition is my major issue so far. The gameplay is basically corridor - cutscene - corridor. This wouldn't be so annoying if there weren't so many moments when the corridors felt so damn long - there are parts when you are fighting the same enemies for around an hour. It gets a little dull.

FFXIII isn't a bad game as such, but it is a flawed one. I'm sticking with it because there are moments (mainly in combat) when the game shines, the creator's intentions clearly fulfilled. I have a feeling - and backed up by many reviewers - that soon the game will truly shine. Yet the fact that it takes twenty hours to get there is a serious flaw - that is a lot of time, and there is no forgiving clunky storytelling and characters, even if they do begin to shine eventually. Not everyone is going to stick with a game long for twenty hours because of a vague promise that it gets better. However, I am finding enough to continue on, even if at points it seems a bit foolish to do so.

Hopefully I'll reach

Pulse soon

(I'm guessing so) and my concerns will become less vocal. As of now, I like it, but it definitely isn't as instantly compelling as, say, Persona 4 or FFVII.

OxfordComma

I agree with most of what the above poster has said.

I'm about 30 hours in now, on Chapter 11, and I have somewhat mixed feelings on the game so far. I definitely love how the game places a large emphasis on plot (unlike the abominable FF XII.) The characters themselves are quite endearing and likeable - I particularly like Lightning and Sazh. The plot, on the other hand, I'm not so sure about - thus far, it definitely seems to be missing something. It seems to be a bit inconsistent, and it's definitely not as compelling as, for example, FF VI or FF X, and the lack of a clear villain (so far) really hurts the storyline. That's not to say it's bad, but definitely not one of the series' strongest stories. There have been several times when I was certain things were finally starting to get really good (particularly at the end of Chapter 9, really really enjoyed that bit) but then Squeenix seem to lose it somehow.

The battle system is absolutely excellent - possibly the best the series has ever seen. It's a very fun system, and offers a surprising degree of challenge for gamers to sink their teeth into. It's very fast paced, and requires a good deal of strategic thinking, quick reflexes and skill, mainly due to the Paradigm Shift system.

Out of battle, though, is where things start to get problematic. Everyone's already heard about the whole "linearity" issue with this game, undoubtedly. Before I played the game, I didn't think it'd be much of a big deal (after all, FF X, my favourite game in the whole series, was very linear too) but in reality, it really, really is a huge problem, and takes a lot away from the whole experience. The game feels as if it's on rails; even a huge city like

Palumpolum

resembles a corridor. You simply walk straight ahead for 25+ hours. The world of Cocoon, which should be an expansive environment you can immerse yourself in, is incredibly restricted, and the various locations in the game feel oddly disjointed. And the thing is, there's no real reason for this. FF X took the role of a religious pilgrimage with a clearly defined path from place to place, so there was at least a vaild explanation for its linearity; I don't really think a band of fugitives should really have such a definite path to travel.

Obviously, the graphics are phenomenal (that almost goes without saying). Voice acting's quite good too, and the music, while lacking the sheer wonder of Uematsu's stunning compositions, is pretty good (and a definite improvement over FF XII).

GothPunk

joe123 wrote: »

No I mean, I attack with Thunder....I cant see how much damage it does as theres a load of other numbers on top of it so they get all mixed up during it attacks. Its VERY hard make out how much damage your taking with each attack.

I know what you meant, there can be up to 10 different damage indicators overlaying each other, I get that. What I'm saying is that if the health bar above the enemy doesn't give enough detail for you to see how much damage you're dealing you can just press R1 and see how much damage you are dealing. It's not hard at all to see how much damage you're doing with an attack by just checking the enemy info screen in this way.

joe123 wrote: »

How often do you do that? Come on in FF games you usually come across a new weapon every two hours or so. And yes I liked equiping new weapons etc seeing their new effects/damage/what they look like. Besides you still have to equip in this! And the bloody leveling up weapons isnt all that!

That's not what I said. I said when the battle team changes, you know, when you need to swap a healer or tank in or out or the game just plain changes who is available due to the story (or if a character dies). Then you have to rejig the weapons and accessories for the characters. I don't see much difference between that and setting up and changing paradigms. It's just something that I expect in an RPG. Isn't one of the draws of playing an RPG all the micromanagement?

joe123 wrote: »

But for most mob fights as you trawl through the narrow corridors you just do the same thing over and over waiting for your party to slowy grind down the enemy using the same paradigm then switching to the other paradigm.Usually a fight consists of the same two every fight.

Slowly? If you're using paradigms correctly said mob fights shouldn't take more than 30 seconds usually, to a max of about 90 seconds. If you were using auto-battle maybe they'd go on a bit longer but if you're controlling the main character and trying to get preemptive strikes those battles are very fast. I also found some of the regular grunt fights gave me a bit of a challenge, in fact I think FFXIII is one of the few JRPGs where I've died outside of a boss fight.

joe123 wrote: »

Well this is where we just have to disaggree. I found it pretty boring selecting the same options over and over. Id find myself just tapping A constantly during a fight. I used to like how I could select Thundaga then use a different attack next time round. In this all it consists of is....**tap a tap a tap a tap a press lb select decimation tap a press lb back to relentless assault....zzzzz....And not wanting to change my party because I couldnt face setting up paradigms again. If they let you save more than 6 and stop resetting them then maybe it wouldnt of been so bad.

No pretty much every battle I had id start with a sab/Com/syn. Id have casted deprotect and imperil so their weak, my party would have haste and then all id do is have to switch to relentless assault. Some fights you knew youd win but they just lasted too long.

This is where you loose me. You can't have it both ways. Either you grind your ass off so that you can breeze through any enemy you come across, or you don't grind and you experience more of a challenge. If you grind as much as you can do you not think it's unfair to then complain when the game is too easy?

When you say that the battles were taking too long I feel like we are playing different games. You can't always use the same paradigms, what do you do against enemies that are immune to deprotect and other debuffs?

joe123 wrote: »

It wasnt as easy as that though. To upgrade your weapons properly you need a hell of a lot of gill. Gill that you will never get untill your able to take on the admantoise to actually recover decent spoils to sell.

I've upgraded a weapon for Lightning up to level 17 in my game and I haven't spent a single gil, so I'm not sure what's going on there. So now I have a weapon that lets me start with a partially full ATB bar and refills my ATB a little bit every time I hit an enemy. It's also a helluva lot more powerful than the starter weapon. Your point seemed to be that there's no point to upgrading your weapons, when clearly there is. Fair enough if you don't like leveling/upgrading stuff in an RPG.

joe123 wrote: »

Maybe as I hate with a passion the way Oblivion and Fallout etc have introduced this enemy scaling/levelling up with you. But in ffxiii it just held you down because the game didnt want you getting to powerfull. In my eyes the game should reward those willing to put in the effort to grind.

Reward you how? I would much rather play a game that rewards you for playing with the right strategy against an enemy, exploiting their weakness(es) if they have any to bring them down in a timely fashion. I used to grind my characters to be much higher than enemies but I just don't see the point anymore, it just makes games boring. From Pokemon to Persona to FFXIII, where's the fun in battle if every single battle you fight is a guaranteed win for you?

joe123 wrote: »

To be honest I dont care if new fans like the new battle system. I found it boring and repetitive. People might find that ff10 or 9 boring and repetitive but sure no one agrees on everything.

Far be it from me to ask everyone to agree on something, but it would seem to me that the majority of people, old fans and new, like if not love the battle system in FFXIII. Fair enough if you don't enjoy the game, but I stand by my comment that the battle system in FFXIII is one of the greatest battle systems in a JRPG to date. FFXIII is far from perfect but for me it's quickly becoming one of my favourite FF games, mostly due to the excellent battle system.

joe123

GothPunk wrote: »

I know what you meant, there can be up to 10 different damage indicators overlaying each other, I get that. What I'm saying is that if the health bar above the enemy doesn't give enough detail for you to see how much damage you're dealing you can just press R1 and see how much damage you are dealing. It's not hard at all to see how much damage you're doing with an attack by just checking the enemy info screen in this way.

The player shouldnt have to do that. Its bad game design to not be able to see how much damage is being dealt. Its only a minor gripe but still I like to be able to see what damage each attack does.

That's not what I said. I said when the battle team changes, you know, when you need to swap a healer or tank in or out or the game just plain changes who is available due to the story (or if a character dies). Then you have to rejig the weapons and accessories for the characters. I don't see much difference between that and setting up and changing paradigms. It's just something that I expect in an RPG. Isn't one of the draws of playing an RPG all the micromanagement?

Sure micromanagement can be fun. But the problem with the paradigms getting reset is that you will be constantly setting the same loadout over and over again just because you might change out one character.

Slowly? If you're using paradigms correctly said mob fights shouldn't take more than 30 seconds usually, to a max of about 90 seconds. If you were using auto-battle maybe they'd go on a bit longer but if you're controlling the main character and trying to get preemptive strikes those battles are very fast. I also found some of the regular grunt fights gave me a bit of a challenge, in fact I think FFXIII is one of the few JRPGs where I've died outside of a boss fight.

Well I was at the last level when I was mentioning this, so I may have been slightly off by saing all mob fights are long. But on the last level before the final fight some of them lasted ages. You knew youd win the fight but having to switch paradigms..see the animation of switching and then just tapping a constantly was a bit of a bore.

For me alot of the time was just spent tapping a whereas in other FF's youd be selecting different options. I dont know but older ff games just felt more involved. FFxiii battle system isnt bad but I just think its very over rated.

This is where you loose me. You can't have it both ways. Either you grind your ass off so that you can breeze through any enemy you come across, or you don't grind and you experience more of a challenge. If you grind as much as you can do you not think it's unfair to then complain when the game is too easy?

I wouldnt complain. If I want to level up and grind the game should let me. If I want to continue and have the game challenging it should let me too. FFxiii doesnt offer this choice it just says "ok your powerful enough for the next while".

When you say that the battles were taking too long I feel like we are playing different games. You can't always use the same paradigms, what do you do against enemies that are immune to deprotect and other debuffs?I've upgraded a weapon for Lightning up to level 17 in my game and I haven't spent a single gil, so I'm not sure what's going on there. So now I have a weapon that lets me start with a partially full ATB bar and refills my ATB a little bit every time I hit an enemy. It's also a helluva lot more powerful than the starter weapon. Your point seemed to be that there's no point to upgrading your weapons, when clearly there is

.

Theres not. I finished the game with weapons somewhere in their second phase. If you want to get ultimate weapons in this game you need those trapehezrons or whatever they're called. They are dropped by admantoises or buy them for 2 million. Something you wont have untill you complete the game.

Fair enough if you don't like leveling/upgrading stuff in an RPG.Reward you how? I would much rather play a game that rewards you for playing with the right strategy against an enemy, exploiting their weakness(es) if they have any to bring them down in a timely fashion. I used to grind my characters to be much higher than enemies but I just don't see the point anymore, it just makes games boring. From Pokemon to Persona to FFXIII, where's the fun in battle if every single battle you fight is a guaranteed win for you?

Eh but I do like levelling up!? Thats why im saying i didnt like the crystarium thing in this years FF. It was restricted and felt alot smaller than older FF's. And I just prefered finding weapons rather than needing loads of gill to have an ultimate weapon.

And im just sayin the option should of been there for people to grind if they wanted. I remember in FFX fighting seymour and needing a strategy to fight him by employing immune spells to whatever he was about to cast. Maybe it was just me but it just felt like there was more thinking involved in boss fights as opposed to 13.

In this it was usually...Synergist/sab/com....then just relentless assault....then medic medic/sab...and over and over.

Far be it from me to ask everyone to agree on something, but it would seem to me that the majority of people, old fans and new, like if not love the battle system in FFXIII. Fair enough if you don't enjoy the game, but I stand by my comment that the battle system in FFXIII is one of the greatest battle systems in a JRPG to date. FFXIII is far from perfect but for me it's quickly becoming one of my favourite FF games, mostly due to the excellent battle system.

Yep I know this battle system is getting praised, I just dont think its all that. Its good but not great. It just feels very repetitive.

CodeMonkey

joe123 wrote: »

I wouldnt complain. If I want to level up and grind the game should let me. If I want to continue and have the game challenging it should let me too. FFxiii doesnt offer this choice it just says "ok your powerful enough for the next while".

<snip>

Eh but I do like levelling up!? Thats why im saying i didnt like the crystarium thing in this years FF. It was restricted and felt alot smaller than older FF's. And I just prefered finding weapons rather than needing loads of gill to have an ultimate weapon.

And im just sayin the option should of been there for people to grind if they wanted. I remember in FFX fighting seymour and needing a strategy to fight him by employing immune spells to whatever he was about to cast. Maybe it was just me but it just felt like there was more thinking involved in boss fights as opposed to 13.

Why should the game give you the option to over level in the first play through to such an extent that you can 1 hit kill the last boss? No seriously, why? Why is that considered a good design? You can do this if you reload the save after finishing it.

While I am at it, why is it bad design when the numbers flashes by too quick to over analysis the attack/skill when it doesn't really matter since the numbers are pretty arbitrary? You know pretty quickly if you doing big damage vs small damage without seeing the actual numbers. That's all that matters.

Yep I know this battle system is getting praised, I just dont think its all that. Its good but not great. It just feels very repetitive.

Which FF fight system doesn't get repetitive? You love the ocd-ness of grinding and leveling in older FF but complain about FF13 battle system being repetitive, that is just odd. It looks like you just don't like it cause it's different.

joe123

CodeMonkey wrote: »

Why should the game give you the option to over level in the first play through to such an extent that you can 1 hit kill the last boss? No seriously, why? Why is that considered a good design? You can do this if you reload the save after finishing it.

The option should be there. If theres someone crazy enough out there to level themselves up to such an extent to be that powerful then the option should be there. For me when in the mood I should of been allowed grind...level up and go through a section of the game with relative ease untill the game caught up with me again.

While I am at it, why is it bad design when the numbers flashes by too quick to over analysis the attack/skill when it doesn't really matter since the numbers are pretty arbitrary? You know pretty quickly if you doing big damage vs small damage without seeing the actual numbers. That's all that matters.

Because maybe I want to know what damage by firaga is doing, or my newly upgraded weapon? Its just something id like to know.

Which FF fight system doesn't get repetitive? You love the ocd-ness of grinding and leveling in older FF but complain about FF13 battle system being repetitive, that is just odd. It looks like you just don't like it cause it's different.

Have to say your a great man for the assumptions! :pac:

I know there was always a repetitiveness about the battle systems but I used to like learning a new power, picking that mid fight and seeing loads of damage. In this you learn a new power but you still just tap a tap a tap a tap a.

Ive already mentioned I really liked the gambit system in 12 and that was a huge change from 10 and 9.

Mark Hamill

joe123 wrote: »

The option should be there. If theres someone crazy enough out there to level themselves up to such an extent to be that powerful then the option should be there. For me when in the mood I should of been allowed grind...level up and go through a section of the game with relative ease untill the game caught up with me again.

I dont really see the problem with how 13 gives you crystarium levels. Sure you cant really grind if you want to, but you can still build up cp to level up once new stages open up. Also, while you could grind whenever you wanted in the older final fantasies, they where usually balanced in such a way that, for instance, you couldn't just level a fire materia to fire3 at the start, as an exponential increase of exp was required for leveling up, so its not that different. I like the way 13 does it tbh, it keeps a bit of urgency in the final bossfight by restricting your level, and then opens up afterwards for all the secret boss grinding you'll need.

joe123 wrote: »

Because maybe I want to know what damage by firaga is doing, or my newly upgraded weapon? Its just something id like to know.

Then change paradigms to one where only your main attacker is attacking. Or just guage it off the health bar. The fighting is supposed to be fats, trying to be aware of every digit flying off your foe defeats the point, I think.

joe123 wrote: »

I know there was always a repetitiveness about the battle systems but I used to like learning a new power, picking that mid fight and seeing loads of damage. In this you learn a new power but you still just tap a tap a tap a tap a.

You did that in the old final fantasies aswell. You would move the cursor to magic/abilities/techniques etc, press x, choose your move, press x and you would see your move happen. I dont really see any difference in 13, you can completely ignore the auto-fight option if you wanted (you can even have the cursor default position somewhere else, through the settings menu).

CodeMonkey

joe123 wrote: »

The option should be there. If theres someone crazy enough out there to level themselves up to such an extent to be that powerful then the option should be there. For me when in the mood I should of been allowed grind...level up and go through a section of the game with relative ease untill the game caught up with me again.

Again, why? Why should this be an option in first play through? The option is there after you finish. Why shouldn't the game designer move forward, away from an older leveling system that breaks the game. Why is this bad design? Seems like the opposite to me.

By your argument, I can argue that older FF should let me grind and level to an indefinite level, why should level cap be 99?

Have to say your a great man for the assumptions! :pac:

Assumptions based on what you're saying though which is, FF13 doesn't let me do X. Older FF lets me do X. FF13 does something else I don't like. Therefore FF13 is badly designed.

I know there was always a repetitiveness about the battle systems but I used to like learning a new power, picking that mid fight and seeing loads of damage. In this you learn a new power but you still just tap a tap a tap a tap a.

My point is the repetitiveness is not that bad compared to older FF. Just pointing out that maybe that's not a problem like you suggest.

imitation

Just finished it last night, I really enjoyed it. Its incredibly slow to get started though, its quite a while before you get paradigms and even then your lumbered with limited 2 people teams for quite a while. Once you get the full freedom of 3 characters of your choice it becomes much better, you can choose fun stack ups (double sab for example, nothing like chain paining a tough enemy) and there is alot more paradigm switching. It does feel like they made a big mistake with the auto battle / gestalt option, then again, maybe I should have just not used it :pac:. Your still sweating it through the tough fights though, so I guess its no loss.

Story wise, its a fair bit cringe worthy in parts, but nowhere near as bad as you would have thought from the trailers. On the whole though I enjoyed it enough for it to pull me through the 50 hour mash fest.

Sound track is really noteworthy, some songs are a bit too sugar sweet, but they really hit the mood, battle music, foreboding, sadness, reminiscence etc.

Crystalarium is a bit of a pain, it just feels like a time sink chasing orbs around a track, and hunting down skills you may have missed. It gets worse if your close to maxing it while you try and hunt down the stats you need for a character.

Finally, the spoilerz

First of all, the Leona lewis song at the end ? God it was awful, so completely out of place, what were they thinking. Its made even worse by the fact the game has such a good score in general. I might have been in some way saddened by the ending, but hearing that wail on just made me cringe. The fact they also crystalized my two favourite characters also kind of sucked, but I guess it wouldnt be FF without some form of bitter-sweet ending, and a sequel is pretty unlikely.

I was also disappointed by obera, there was a good opportunity for back story there, but it feels like one big void, in fact most of pulse does. Considering how much they throw the story at you in the first 25 hours or so you would have think they might have rationed it more evenly.

The end boss fights were surprisingly easy (Ok I cheated a bit and got the 60% death accessory, but I`m glad I did, its lame game design to just get randomly one shotted, and all you`d do is go buy one anyway). Mainly considering that in the bit just before eden I was getting plastered by all the giant monster packs.

BeansBeans

Really enjoying it now, but i have realised whats bugging me. There hasnt been one puzzle of any sort. I quite enjoyed the puzzles in X (that was the last FF i played so stuck in my head) would have liked something like that again to change the pace.
Great stuff though.

carbonkid

BeansBeans wrote: »

Really enjoying it now, but i have realised whats bugging me. There hasnt been one puzzle of any sort. I quite enjoyed the puzzles in X (that was the last FF i played so stuck in my head) would have liked something like that again to change the pace.
Great stuff though.

YES!!! I thought the puzzles in X with no random battles was ingenious, and would have been perfect for this style of game.

So far im really enjoying the dialog, finding the characters are really well thought out and scripted. Even the dubbing isnt too bad ^_^

Only issue id have so far is the battle system. Ive started using the paradigms but its kinda boring. Feels like ok im lighting so attack, attack, attack. Ok running low on health so switchly thingy, someone uses cure and switchy thingy...back to attack, attack, attack.

Id like to actually cast some spells at some stage...this does happen right?

Mark Hamill

Ok cleared it last night so here is my review:
Final Fantasy 13 is a highly polished turd. There is just no other way for me to put it, it was pathetically bad on so many fronts, with hd polish to try and hide the truth (warning-endgame spoiler tastic):

1)The story was just a god awful mess, it couldn't figure who it wanted the bad guy to be for most of the game, it kept introducing concepts earlier in the game with little or no explanation for what they meant and it honestly took me till about chapter 10 to figure out the entire game so far was on a giant inside-out egg (the vile peaks confused me, I was under the impression they where piles of leftover material left over from the construction of cocoon, and yet they where left on cocoon?). The ending was just insanely stupid-when they figure out what the bad guys plan is (their focus to kill Oprhan and destroy cocoon), they decide not to follow through with it and spend the last few chapters swearing blinding that they wont follow through with it. However, every thing they do in the last few chapters, leads them straight to Orphan where they decide to kill Orphan in order to save cocoon, knowing full well that this will destroy cocoon. WTF!!?? The only reason this doesn't destroy cocoon, is that two of the characters completely out of the blue decide they can meld together and transform into some huge creature which catches cocoon out the air and props it on a crystal spike in a horribly messy and convoluted cg sequence. Its just awful.
2) The characters. Why is there 6 charcaters? Besides padding out the scenes and giving an excuse to go down more linear corridors, what do Hope, Vanille and Snow actually do? All the game really needs is Lightning (for Serahs story), Sazh (for Dazhs story) and Fang (for Oerba and Ragnarok), even the crystarium would still be balanced out with these characters. Its as if they showed the execs the first three characters and the execs asked which one was the strong, dumbass cliche, which was the irritatingly upbeat cliche and which was the irritating little sh*t cliche, so they went and arbitrarily added more characters to fill the cliches.
3) The World. Partially because of the linearality, partially because of the lack of towns, but also, imo, partially because the lack of any background information on any of the enemies in the datalog (its all weakness and health), the makers of 13 completely failed to make Gran Pulse into a fully realised world. There is no real scale to the areas you traverse, Gran Pulse is essentially a field, really no bigger than the world maps of 6,7,8 or 9, while all the "cities" you go into are simply overly long linear corridors. I think even a little back-story on the enemies in the datalog screen would have helped flesh out the game, but theres none, like Lightning never shuts up saying they are all "just another target", most later enemies being almost nothing more than palate swapped versions of weaker ones you meet early in the game.
4) The gameplay. This was one of the better things about the game sure (the only reason I could finish tbh), but even this is terrible in places. A lot of the restrictions in the gameplay are there because if they weren't, the game would be far too easy and thats not the sign of a good battle system eg not being able to switch main character during fighting, only having six paradigms and having switching paradigms break the flow of gameplay usually to the enemies benefit (stagger bars decrease while the paradigm switching animation plays). Also some of the roles are nearly broken-Sentinal is damn near useless, and medics have this irritating habit of only doing one cure at a time if everyones health is in the green (You could be in a situation where each charcater needs three or four cures to get to max health, but are still in the green because of high max health and the medic will still cure one person with one cure at a time, despite not being able to do anything else:mad:).
5) Post game gameplay. One thing the game did well was keep you characters fairly balanced throughout (with respect to skills and stats). You didn't need to grind at any point to keep up with the crystarium (I fought every creature I encounter only once, up to chapter 11), and the max stats at each point made you fairly powerful while keeping the battles still fairly interesting (in part by having status effects actually usefull). However post game, this balance gets kicked in the nuts in favour of making you grind for the millions of gil you'll need for upgrading weapons and the millions of cp you'll need for leveling the last stage of your characters roles in the crystarium. Grinding is not fun :mad:. Fighting the same boring enemies over and over again for hours at a time in order to get strong enough to fight the big bosses is not fun :mad:.

I still have almost every other final fantasy that was on the play station, but I think that 13 will going the way of Crisis Core and Derge of Cerberus-straight back to the shop, (probably be traded in for God of War 3 or something)

CodeMonkey

I agree that the story isn't fantastic and there were plenty of mistakes in the game. Like to comment on your bit on the gameplay.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

4) The gameplay. This was one of the better things about the game sure (the only reason I could finish tbh), but even this is terrible in places. A lot of the restrictions in the gameplay are there because if they weren't, the game would be far too easy and thats not the sign of a good battle system eg not being able to switch main character during fighting, only having six paradigms and having switching paradigms break the flow of gameplay usually to the enemies benefit (stagger bars decrease while the paradigm switching animation plays). Also some of the roles are nearly broken-Sentinal is damn near useless, and medics have this irritating habit of only doing one cure at a time if everyones health is in the green (You could be in a situation where each charcater needs three or four cures to get to max health, but are still in the green because of high max health and the medic will still cure one person with one cure at a time, despite not being able to do anything else:mad:).

1. Stagger bar only decrease in paradigm switching animation the first time you switch paradigm in the same fight. You actually get a full atb bar everytime you switch afterwards and your characters (main one does anyway) attack straight away.

2. You only get single cures from medics if you are using medics in your main and you are using autobattle to cure. If you are manually playing medic then you shouldn't be using autobattle.

Computer controlled medics will stack cures and cures as fast as they can.

5) Post game gameplay. One thing the game did well was keep you characters fairly balanced throughout (with respect to skills and stats). You didn't need to grind at any point to keep up with the crystarium (I fought every creature I encounter only once, up to chapter 11), and the max stats at each point made you fairly powerful while keeping the battles still fairly interesting (in part by having status effects actually usefull). However post game, this balance gets kicked in the nuts in favour of making you grind for the millions of gil you'll need for upgrading weapons and the millions of cp you'll need for leveling the last stage of your characters roles in the crystarium. Grinding is not fun :mad:. Fighting the same boring enemies over and over again for hours at a time in order to get strong enough to fight the big bosses is not fun :mad:.

That's put in for people like joe123 who likes grinding.

Mark Hamill

CodeMonkey wrote: »

1. Stagger bar only decrease in paradigm switching animation the first time you switch paradigm in the same fight. You actually get a full atb bar everytime you switch afterwards and your characters (main one does anyway) attack straight away.

I'm pretty sure the stagger decreases all the time, its just the first paradigm change of a fight that is the longest so its more noticable. And while the atb still fills, the paradigm change can interupt some auto-attacks (I found that it interupted an autobattle of attack-attack-etc or fire-blizzard-etc, but didn't interupt Army of One).

CodeMonkey wrote: »

Computer controlled medics will stack cures and cures as fast as they can.

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but it looked like anytime I put Hope as medic (my team was Lightning, Fang and Hope, with Lightning as leader), he would only heal one cure at a time if we where all in the green, regardless of wether all of the team still needed health.

CodeMonkey wrote: »

That's put in for people like joe123 who likes grinding.

Dont these people have mmorpgs for grinding? Why cant they leave the fun in the single player games for the rest of us .

imitation

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the stagger decreases all the time, its just the first paradigm change of a fight that is the longest so its more noticable. And while the atb still fills, the paradigm change can interupt some auto-attacks (I found that it interupted an autobattle of attack-attack-etc or fire-blizzard-etc, but didn't interupt Army of One).

I think it just uses the last q`d ability in your stack, just like pressing Y or triangle. As army of one takes 5 atbs, it will not be stopped

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but it looked like anytime I put Hope as medic (my team was Lightning, Fang and Hope, with Lightning as leader), he would only heal one cure at a time if we where all in the green, regardless of wether all of the team still needed health.

He might have been using some of the 2-3 atb heals (I never played a medic fully so I dont know how many there are) which would slow him down. They`ll also instantly use a skill instead of waiting for a full atb charge if needed. They also had a bit of tendancy to use esuna even when some members were quite low. The most annoying this was waiting for them to raise somebody, when instead they insisted on topping you up at 80% health. I was practically screaming at the tv sometimes, all they have two do is raise the other guy in my setup and I can just double medic and bang instant full health.

OxfordComma

imitation wrote: »

The most annoying this was waiting for them to raise somebody, when instead they insisted on topping you up at 80% health. I was practically screaming at the tv sometimes, all they have two do is raise the other guy in my setup and I can just double medic and bang instant full health.

This drives me absolutely mad :mad: There've been a few other bizarre moments for me too - in one battle, Fang wouldn't take any actions at all in certain paradigms, things like that.

The most infuriating thing for me though is having to redo all your paradigms every single time you change characters. Would it really have been so hard for them to include an option to save paradigm decks, or even select particular paradigms like Relentless Assault/Combat Clinic/whatever, without having to select every character's role individually?? It's just a pointless, annoying waste of time. It's also rather strange that you can't get a list of the abilities each character has mastered in each role, although that's only a minor thing.

Apart from that, the battle system is possibly my favourite of any game in the series! (The plot's a whole other story though, pardon the pun...)

Aurongroove

I though the system was excellent (fighting system I mean)

Once you arrive at chapter 10, and the few chapter leading up to it, the paradigm shift starts coming into full swing. those 5 stars mean very little in the grand scheme of things, but getting 3 stars of 4 is infuriating!!

the issue for a lot of people with the Eidolons, is there are only a few scenarios in which they will save you time, they're not great against the sort of "mini boss" battles, are they're to much of a luxury for those battles where you're against a huge swarm of low level monsters (preemptive, then quake, and about 20 second of mass staggered butchery usually works).
They're best of all at battling sort of a medium sized group of medium powered monsters, the sort of ones where you're not quite sure staggering is worth the time, but they're still taking a long time to go down.

also when the Eidolons have been summoned it's not just a big blood bath, you have to use them tactically in order to clear the screen, and make full use of both the summoning time and the gestalt time.
So far anyways, it seems they got the balance right, the eidolons can clear a screen of monsters quickly, or have very little effect if you don't know what you're doing, also they seem to do an OK jobb of staying effective, unlike in 12, where early on, an Esper can kill hoards of opposing element beasts single handidly, and later, they're as good as usless.


As for the story: not bad, but god help me make sure you turn the screen text on. Reading a story with some pleasant "they did their best" voice acting is one thing, but depending on nothing but the voice acting leads to a very mediocre experience. Reading is alway better then listening.TBH I don't know why the default position for the text is off.

Sea Sharp

Just bought the game today. I'm only an hour in.
One thing I've noticed is that at least half the game is like a movie. If they do it well it could be good.

Hopefully I'll be up to 15hrs by Sunday

Evolute

The one thing that annoys me about people complaining about this games battle system is they go on about how all you do is hit x or a you can choose the abilities and spells yourself so why didnt you?
Maybe the game is designed for said complainers who are devoid of a brain?
The Ai is thick I will be honest its pissed me off more then I can remember

I've played 40 hoursish and imo its brilliant some of the cut scenes are a bit much as in a 5-10 mins scene for something that coulda just been gameplay chat.
All in all I think its a great game and for the complete and utter tripe thats comming out on all platforms lately its a welcome change.

Aurongroove

I found the cut scenes fine, the pace between action and story just nice.

I must say I was expecting to hate this game, transforming summons, girly teams and fighting system influenced by X-2,
but I think it's fantastic.

my only complaint is a tiny one: enemy HP vs ally HP, could they not have balanced it a little better?
e.g, divide the amount of damage your team deals and enemy HP equilly by ten, then multiply your team's HP and the amount of damage enemys deal by about 4?

as it stands now, you spend 30 seconds of a battle peppering the enemies with 10000's of point of damage, whilst a opportunistic monster might straddle over hit you for "800" and your critical!
by the weight of that, you'd feel that Snow might chance to slap a monster across it's maw springing up a fireworks display of 8 x 4000 damage or similar: nothing for the monster he got a bizzillion HP,
but by his strenght, if he clapped Hope on the back in a friendly manner with even a small amount of force, it would cause him to die several times over, implode and become a super nova smoothie of blood, guts, death and Higgs Boson particles, becasue even a fraction of the force used to deal the 10 or 20 thousand damage points is far more the Hope or any ally should logically be able to deal with. Hell, they might even kill themselves by snapping their fingers wrong.