Taxi driver strike

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

Point 4 I personally would not consider that an example of taking advantage of peoples situation & ripping them off.

koolkid wrote: »

No. Basic economics again. Supply in relation to demand.
As there is an ample supply of taxi's there is no need to overchange now, is there?

Now that's confusing!

KoolKid

:eek: :o Hands up. What a typo:o:o.
I was wondering why your question after that confused me.
I corrected my post.
To clarify . I would consider taking advantage like that ripping people off.
Hence why I agree with the maximum fare.

Spook_ie

So your contention is that there was an ample supply of taxis on NYE, so I take it then you would join with me in condemning the poster who was giving out about no taxis being available.

Also though, other than it's against the law. Given supply and demand why is it ripping them off? Thre's one icedbun left in the shop, you're an iced bun addict, you would pay more to get the last iced bun

Yes the analogy is there because I do think you're after cake and eating it!

KoolKid

Spook_ie wrote: »

So your contention is that there was an ample supply of taxis on NYE, so I take it then you would join with me in condemning the poster who was giving out about no taxis being available.

Maybe the poster in question could not find one.
I often find myself waiting a while on certain roads & in certain areas.
But to say none were available is wrong, yes.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Also though, other than it's against the law. Given supply and demand why is it ripping them off? Thre's one icedbun left in the shop, you're an iced bun addict, you would pay more to get the last iced bun

If 2 people want thier cake then you could have a little auction, for want of a better word. But in the case of someone trying to get home who are you bidding against , if they are stuck. How ever looking at it again if they are offering the fare as opposed to you demanding it that would be fine. But demanding more from someone trying to get home at night is ripping them off. No definable basis for this TBH. Just my opinion, I don't think its right.

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

Maybe the poster in question could not find one.
I often find myself waiting a while on certain roads & in certain areas.
But to say none were available is wrong, yes.


If 2 people want thier cake then you could have a little auction, for want of a better word. But in the case of someone trying to get home who are you bidding against , if they are stuck. How ever looking at it again if they are offering the fare as opposed to you demanding it that would be fine. But demanding more from someone trying to get home at night is ripping them off. No definable basis for this TBH. Just my opinion, I don't think its right.

So can we say we have a consensus of opinion then that if there were two people looking for a taxi the driver should be able to choose and/or charge whichever suited his business better? and at the same time if there were two taxis available the customer could look for the taxi which suited their needs better ( be it costs,type of vehicle, driver etc. )

KoolKid

That sounds like fair competition to me .

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

That sounds like fair competition to me .

But seeing as we are not allowed to do that, are we then in fact NOT in fair competition

KoolKid

A good point Spook.
2 Things come to mind. How do you get around the trust issue and given the current climate. if there were 2 taxis and one passanger would you both be undercutting each other for the business?

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

A good point Spook.
2 Things come to mind. How do you get around the trust issue and given the current climate. if there were 2 taxis and one passanger would you both be undercutting each other for the business?

The so called free market principle means some are already doing that, but now having estabilished that the taxi industry isn't allowed to work to free market principles do you not also therefore agree that it isn't comparable to the other industries so often cited

KoolKid

It is still comparable in the sense that you all should be competing for business. What benefit do you see from being able to charge above the maximum price? I would say it would do the industry more harm than good. The odd good price you could get would be far outweighed by the further trust lost. The public would never go for it. Is there any examples of this working elsewhere?

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

It is still comparable in the sense that you all should be competing for business. What benefit do you see from being able to charge above the maximum price? I would say it would do the industry more harm than good. The odd good price you could get would be far outweighed by the further trust lost. The public would never go for it. Is there any examples of this working elsewhere?

Correct in the fact that we are all competing for business, this is shown by the fact that not all taxi drivers believe in paying base fees to radio companies, some prefer rank work, some prefer working the city, some prefer working the suburbs, each is competing for their own slice of the business, some subscribe to the model of investing €5000 a year to companies such as 820 cabs to get, hopefully, a larger slice of the business.

The contention that it may do more harm than good to the taxi business may well be valid but isn't that the point of the free market, if you under research and overprice yourself you often get your fingers burnt and have to rapidly reappraise the marketability of the service you're providing at the price you have set, the very basis of a free market.

Now the contention I'm putting to you, if you are not prepared to allow a market to run to free market principles then you defacto have a business that needs to be "protected" in some way, what form that "protection" should take is a discussion that could well take years to even get off the ground with the intransigence of the DoT, the Taxi Regulator and the taxi unions but sooner or later it will have to be done, and yes I do have a vested interest in getting it done sooner rather than later

KoolKid

If you were made regulater in the morning & had a free hand. What would you do?

Cookie_Monster

They can never remove the the fare cap and have a true free market bacause that would instantly generate cartels all over the place. If you lived in Ballynowhere that had 3 taxis they'd just agree between them to have fixed higher prices.

Spook_ie

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They can never remove the the fare cap and have a true free market bacause that would instantly generate cartels all over the place. If you lived in Ballynowhere that had 3 taxis they'd just agree between them to have fixed higher prices.

Have to agree somewhat with you there, but then if it means that the industry is there to provide the public service needed in Ballynowhere, but isn't subsidised, isn't that another point in favour of some kind of protection in the form of limiting the cabs serving Ballynowhere to a reasonable number?

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

If you were made regulater in the morning & had a free hand. What would you do?

I'll get back to you on that

KoolKid

Ok..

dunsandin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They can never remove the the fare cap and have a true free market bacause that would instantly generate cartels all over the place. If you lived in Ballynowhere that had 3 taxis they'd just agree between them to have fixed higher prices.

Sounds somthing like how the market works to me. Imagine if you lived on an island just off the UK and all the goods sold there were more expensive than in the UK, just because the retailers could. No, surely this could not happen. Next you will be saying that pubs charge more for drink on certain days of the year, and that hotels and flights vary in price according to location and date. That is just absurd. How could a market function like that.

KoolKid

Taxi's are dping that to an extent already . Prices are dearer after a certain time, dearer on bank holidays & dearer on Christmas day. The only differene if the public are protected by a maximum price.

dunsandin

Isn't it great that the govt are "protecting" us from the big bad taxi men. I hope they are protecting us equally well from all the other lads who would like to rip us off. I feel all warm and fuzzy to be so well protected. I think it is more a case of govt touches a market and @rses it up - eg property(think tax breaks that created zombie hotels and developments in the A.H of leitrim, think pensions, think healthcare, think the taxi market.) God help us from the protection of the state, its a bit like keeping your pet mouse under a breeze block to protect it.

Mr Trade In

Anyone know if the planned strike in Dublin tomorrow(later today) is still going ahead?

KoolKid

Mr Trade In wrote: »

Anyone know if the planned strike in Dublin tomorrow(later today) is still going ahead?

Judging by the ammount of them out this morning,I doubt it.

whosedaddy?

according to RTE its happening

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0318/taxi.html

MJohnston

Thats the sort of protest they should have done in the first place.

KoolKid

There are plenty of taxis still working. Nice to see some business sense being applied.

whosedaddy?

not all taxi drivers support the ITC.. used taxi three times last week. neither of the drivers knew who the ITC were and all disagreed with the methods.

and after all the selfemployed drivers are all competitors.. let some strike - more business for the ones that don't....

Live Drive

Traffic is moving well now after the earlier protests

Nermal

dunsandin wrote: »

I think it is more a case of govt touches a market and @rses it up

Taxi market seems to be working fine to me, as a consumer. I can't think of a better example of the benefits of deregulation, actually.

dunsandin

If you'd like to see just how de-regulated it is, paint the word "Taxi" on your car and go out looking for customers, I'm sure you will enjoy the sense of free-marketeering you will experience. Anybody affected by the go slow today? I drove through Dublin and cant say I saw any evidence of it. Trafic was a bit slow anyway, but whats new.

D.McC

Good god, I had to stop reading some of the posts on this subject as my eye’s were starting to hurt!

Yes, I think we can all agree that the protest was justified but the subsequent blockade of the cities streets was unfair to others.

I am surprised by some of the remarks made by supposedly senior members of boards (judging by their high post count). But then none of these posters are employed in an industry that is not only at the mercy of government policy but also victim to a society that is becoming increasing careful of their spending.

I say fair play to them for standing up for themselves, yes they may be rude, racist bigots (some of them) they may also think that indicators give a right of way or can only be used if both are on (hazard lights) :rolleyes: but come 4am on a Saturday morning, after having a good night out and your pissed as a lord and want to get home to your plush D4 apartment from Tripod or wherever you happen to be, guess who is working? (Possibly even from 8 or 9 that morning)

Oh! Before anyone replies, "but they don’t have to work at 4am on a Saturday night", (yes they do because that’s when there is a demand).

KoolKid

dunsandin wrote: »

If you'd like to see just how de-regulated it is, paint the word "Taxi" on your car and go out looking for customers, I'm sure you will enjoy the sense of free-marketeering you will experience. .

Its called competition, almost every business in the contry has to compete for business. Almost every businees in the country is finding it hard. And before you say its the governments fault.... Most of the problems in the country at the moment is the governments fault.
The builders & all the other trades could take that attitude & block the streets etc.. What good would it serve? At the end of the day you are causing disruption & peoboly stopping some other self employed people from making thier few quid.

D.McC wrote: »

But then none of these posters are employed in an industry that is not only at the mercy of government policy but also victim to a society that is becoming increasing careful of their spending.

There is plenty of industry's at the mercy of government policy due to various sorts of requlation. I am in the security industry . With the introduction of the PSA we are forced to pay €1000s in licence fees.
Forced into lots of extra paper work & training etc... I could go on but I would sound like a taxi driver. Also like the taxi drivers we have the PSA who do very little to sort out illegal operators. Do you see us blocking the streets & trowing our toys out of the pram every time a blank bell box gopes up on a wall.No. If you think about it every industry is suffering. So please explain how to me how the Taxi drivers are the only ones suffering.
Also please answer me this. Why should taxi drivers be protected against competition while other industrys are not.

D.McC wrote: »

I say fair play to them for standing up for themselves,

No one is disputing thier right to protest. But why should they get away with illegal protests?

D.McC wrote: »

but come 4am on a Saturday morning, after having a good night out and your pissed as a lord and want to get home to your push D4 apartment from Tripod or wherever you happen to be, guess who is working?

Yes thats thier job. Thats the profession they chose. They are not doing us any favours. We pay them for that service. Regardless of the post code. (A bit irrelevant & petty bring up that TBH)

D.McC wrote: »

Oh! Before anyone replies, "but they don’t have to work at 4am on a Saturday night", (yes they do because that’s when there is a demand).

Thats the whole problem , most taxi drivers don't get the basic principles of supply & demand. They would prefer just demand.Every business has peak times & if you want the business thats when you work. Again thats the profession they choose. Its a low skilled job so there will always be plenty to do the job if someone doesn't want to or is unable to make a living at it.

D.McC

Firstly, if it competition, then why was the industry regulated?

There was a time when a motorist simply had to place a sign on the roof of a car and operate as a taxi. Is this the sort of free market competition you refer too? Where anyone, with any sort of car can simply get a rover biscuits tin, write TAXI on it and charge people whatever they want to travel from A to B.

The state stepped in to stop the wholesale abuse of this freedom and to offer some form of regulation on the, who, what, when and where of the industry.

I know a lot of businesses are finding it hard in the current economic climate, but there are very few businesses the average consumer would consider a luxury; the consumer might only use a taxi once a week, perhaps less. Where as the convenience store receives much more business and as a standalone enterprise will receive far more trade in a defined period of time than any taxi.

If there was no requirement for physical or electronic security measures made by insurance companies, your industry might also fall into the luxury category


You offer the example of the security industry been at the mercy of government regulation and appear to make it sound like a hardship.

Yes, you are now required to adequately train staff, is this really a bad thing?

Yes, this training cost’s money, money that is entirely tax deductible.

Yes, there is additional paper work involved, but surely accountability in a business such as security is a good thing?

What you have also failed to notice was, unlike the Taxi industry, the regulating of the Security industry removed a lot of the operators, (reducing competition) the same operator who could and would undercut most in the industry and who, for one reason or another failed to get a licence, where as the regulation of taxis increased the number of taxi's which equals increased competition.


With regard to the PSA doing very little, your industry awareness or lack of it alarms me (pun intended). As the PSA has secured a number of prosecutions the most resent being J&I security (matter of public record). This company were fined €€€€€€€’s of euro.

With regard to the skill level required of Taxi Drivers, isn’t the entry level skill in the Security Industry set so low that even those with minimum English can pass?


The remark regarding post code was used only as an example as I have made that trip many times myself.

Just a thought regarding government regulation, didn’t the alarm installers come out smelling of roses with the introduction of rules governing the alarm sounding…? Nice little earner there insuring bell boxes comply with the new regs.:rolleyes:

KoolKid

D.McC wrote: »

Firstly, if it competition, then why was the industry regulated?

Lots of industry's are regulated. The business I'm in, security is regulated, restaurants are regulated,shop ,in some cases are regulated,
Ye have to stop thinking regulation entitles you to protection from competition. It doesn't.!

D.McC wrote: »

There was a time when a motorist simply had to place a sign on the roof of a car and operate as a taxi.

There was a time when a motorist couldn't get a taxi plate for less than 80k. We all remember how that worked out.

D.McC wrote: »

Where anyone, with any sort of car can simply get a rover biscuits tin, write TAXI on it and charge people whatever they want to travel from A to B.

Which century are we talking about now??

D.McC wrote: »

I know a lot of businesses are finding it hard in the current economic climate, but there are very few businesses the average consumer would consider a luxury

Are you serious??? You are arn't you??
Luxary..... hhhmmmm let me see.
Pubs,restaurants,holidays,cars,limos,new house,consumer electronics,household, diy,furniture,designer clothes,hair dressers,digital TV, .Do I need to go on?
Most consumer products are luxary's in the currant climate.
All of the above industry's are struggling. Again I ask (still no answer) why should the taxi be different & get protection from competition?
Do you think taxi's are the only thing peoples are cutting down on.

D.McC wrote: »

the convenience store receives much more business and as a standalone enterprise will receive far more trade in a defined period of time than any taxi.

The convenience store, in most cases will be competing with other stores in the area. The store owner can't complain if another store opens beside him. He also won't go off on one blocking streets because there are too many stores in Dublin.

D.McC wrote: »

if there was no requirement for physical or electronic security measures made by insurance companies, your industry might also fall into the luxury category

And in many areas it does. In only some cases is it a requirement. In others its an incentive to reduce insurance.
We still have to comepte with others in the industry.
We also do not protest because others enter the industry.

D.McC wrote: »

IYou offer the example of the security industry been at the mercy of government regulation and appear to make it sound like a hardship.
Yes, you are now required to adequately train staff, is this really a bad thing?
Yes, this training cost’s money, money that is entirely tax deductible.
Yes, there is additional paper work involved, but surely accountability in a business such as security is a good thing?

Ofcourse. As you are a self employed businessman isn't your expenses tax deductable?
You seem to have missed my point. You were suggesting

D.McC wrote: »

if it competition, then why was the industry regulated?

There is competition in the security industry (and many others) but they are regulated. Whats your point here?

D.McC wrote: »

What you have also failed to notice was, unlike the Taxi industry, the regulating of the Security industry removed a lot of the operators, (reducing competition) the same operator who could and would undercut most in the industry and who, for one reason or another failed to get a licence, where as the regulation of taxis increased the number of taxi's which equals increased competition.

But the regulation did not intentionally reduce the numbers. Those who were not prepared to meet the criteria left. People are still free to come into the industry, We are not out protesting , saying we want a cap on the number of security company's there should be.

D.McC wrote: »

With regard to the PSA doing very little, your industry awareness or lack of it alarms me (pun intended). As the PSA has secured a number of prosecutions the most resent being J&I security (matter of public record). This company were fined €€€€€€€’s of euro.

A number of prosecutions yes. I didn't say they were doing nothing.
A little off topic here ..

D.McC wrote: »

With regard to the skill level required of Taxi Drivers, isn’t the entry level skill in the Security Industry set so low that even those with minimum English can pass?

A bit of a strange one.. Why would English be a requirement for any installation engineer. Please explain how the entry level skill is low here.
Even an apprentice would need to show me some level of knowledge & experience.

D.McC wrote: »

The remark regarding post code was used only as an example as I have made that trip many times myself.

Still irrelevant, it sounded like taxi drivers resent bringing people to the better off areas. These people are your customers regardless of where they live.

D.McC wrote: »

Just a thought regarding government regulation, didn’t the alarm installers come out smelling of roses with the introduction of rules governing the alarm sounding…? Nice little earner there insuring bell boxes comply with the new regs.:rolleyes:

A nice little earner??? a few taps on a keypad during the next service? Not really. Maybe on older systems . But they would be needing replacement anyway. Thats what called repeat business. Name one industry that does not need repeat business?

Spook_ie

koolkid wrote: »

Name one industry that does not need repeat business?

Undertakers? Imagine the repeat business they'd all be mouldy and rotting with bits dropping off

Prison Officers? They get repeat business but they don't need/want it

Armed Forces? Though you could argue that repeat business would enable them to hone their skills?

Replacement UPVc Window Installers? Some offer a lifetime guarantee, they don't want repeat business

Insurance Company In House Claims Assessors?, Most definately not looking for repeat business

paulm17781

Spook_ie wrote: »

Undertakers? Imagine the repeat business they'd all be mouldy and rotting with bits dropping off

Yeah they do, they provide a good service so others will come back to / recommend them.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Prison Officers? They get repeat business but they don't need/want it

Prison officers aren't a business. Prisons need people to keep coming in. They also don't seek to make a profit.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Armed Forces? Though you could argue that repeat business would enable them to hone their skills?

Also non profit however the army does more that just go to war. Security for bank deliveries etc.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Replacement UPVc Window Installers? Some offer a lifetime guarantee, they don't want repeat business

Yes they do. What if you get an extension? There's also recommendations. You could argue they offer that guarantee in the hopes people will be aware of it and use them for every window they ever need be it extension, new house or anything.

Spook_ie wrote: »

Insurance Company In House Claims Assessors?, Most definately not looking for repeat business

They certainly are. If they can sell you more insurance then they already are, they will be happier. They also want your family / friends to join them as opposed to their other customers.

Any business that does not want repeat business will fail.

KoolKid

Name one of the above who would still be in business without repeat business..
Think before you answer.
re the insurance one, claims are expenses insurance policys are thier business.
Undertakers get repeat business from the same familys over and over..

Spook_ie

paulm17781 wrote: »

Any business that does not want repeat business will fail.

The question was name industries not businesses, the undertaker was a little tongue in cheek as regards the repeat business i.e think zombies The UPVc windows they don't want repeat business on lifetime guarantees, they might want fresh installs, that's a grey one as fresh installs may/may not be previous customers. In House Insurance assessors are not looking for repeat business, as their business is assessing the loss, the less assessing they do the better for the company

paulm17781

Spook_ie wrote: »

The question was name industries not businesses, the undertaker was a little tongue in cheek as regards the repeat business i.e think zombies The UPVc windows they don't want repeat business on lifetime guarantees, they might want fresh installs, that's a grey one as fresh installs may/may not be previous customers. In House Insurance assessors are not looking for repeat business, as their business is assessing the loss, the less assessing they do the better for the company

A life time guarantee is not a window installers business, installing windows is. The window makers / installers all want repeat business. The lifetime guarantee is used to get business and hopefully, repeats. Whether a new install is new or repeat business, if a customer comes to them for a second time, they won't turn them away as they already worked there. They want repeat business.

A house assessor is not a business (unless they're independant) it is a part of the insurance company's business. They want repeat business. They are not in the business of assessing losses, they are in the insurance business, assessing loses is a part of that.

Again, I stress, there is no business / industry that does not want repeat business. A part of any successful business is repeat business.

KoolKid

I think those answers really prove a lack of business understanding. Spook, without trying to twist words & create a different meaning, quite simply any business who is in business to profit & grow need repeat business. I would have imagined a taxi driver would understand that. After all you are dealing with a limited popualtion. But for some strange reason Taxi Drivers seem to want to reduce thier customer base by dwindling the number of people willing to use taxis.You are happy to insult,upset & inconvienience your customers at will.

Ham'nd'egger

koolkid wrote: »

I think those answers really prove a lack of business understanding. Spook, without trying to twist words & create a different meaning, quite simply any business who is in business to profit & grow need repeat business. I would have imagined a taxi driver would understand that. After all you are dealing with a limited popualtion. But for some strange reason Taxi Drivers seem to want to reduce thier customer base by dwindling the number of people willing to use taxis.You are happy to insult,upset & inconvienience your customers at will.

How do you propose we further our campaign? Strikes you say doesn't work. Remember we can't work to rule, go slow, refuse to answer phones etc. Speaking in front of a Dail Committee hasn't either; sensible ideas are welcome.

KoolKid

The whole idea of someone self employed going on strike just baffles me. Its so irish!.
Protest by all means that is your right. But do it in an organised & legal fashion. If taxi drivers as a whole want representation then get organised . Regarding strikes, remember this, you are all in competition with each other. How childish is it to see 2 taxi drivers in a slagging match because one decides to work & the other doesn't. Imagine if there was a strike in your local Spar shop, would you expect your local Centra to be on strike as well? No he would be out making his money & laughing all the way to the bank. You are all businessmen start thinking & acting that way. And for gods sake get some decent representation, no one is going to take discussion seriously with a bunch of head strong idiots who storm out of a meeting & protest straight away because they didn't get thier way.
Can you tell me realistically what you would like to see done? If you were the regulator what would you do?

slimjimmc

koolkid wrote: »

The whole idea of someone self employed going on strike just baffles me. Its so irish!.

I hate that phrase "Its so irish", it's derogatory as in if something is stupid or bad then it must be Irish. That out of the way, self employed people going on strike is definitely not unique to Ireland, we're probably only still learning. Remember all those French hauliers a few years ago who blockaded streets and ports for days not just a few hours.

Thumbs up for the rest of your post.

kajo

I bet the people who moan the most here don't even use taxis and the people who do use them know the facts..... sure i told them all!

Easy fix sack the regulator and sack the transport minister... no need to thank me.

KoolKid

kajo wrote: »

I bet the people who moan the most here don't even use taxis and the people who do use them know the facts..... sure i told them all!
.

For the record I will take a taxi between 4-6 times a week.
I liked the post about having a haggle over the price & forget about the meter. I'll be giving that a try.

Ham'nd'egger

koolkid wrote: »

For the record I will take a taxi between 4-6 times a week.
I liked the post about having a haggle over the price & forget about the meter. I'll be giving that a try.

Illegal unless you sign a waiver and agree to the price. Don't be afraid to ask but like in your trade don't be afraid if it's "not tonight";)

KoolKid

No problem signing a bit of paper for a discount.
Whats not tonight got to do with my trade????

Badabing

Is there a strike/protest today or what? seen loads of taxis working and some at the ranks not working.

KoolKid

Mostly working from what I can see. The same few 100 seem to be the ones causing trouble. Very little support for this from drivers. The last 6 or 7 taxis I got said they have no time for them.

paulm17781

koolkid wrote: »

The last 6 or 7 taxis I got said they have no time for them.

Shame they wouldn't tell them where to go. That 100 are doing a great deal of damage.

AlekSmart

Is there a strike/protest today or what? seen loads of taxis working and some at the ranks not working.

Very interesting day indeed.

From the get-go this morning it was apparent that something had changed.
From my observations about the town,the protesting Taxi Drivers were very much in a minority.
There appeared to be a ready supply of Working For Hire drivers out and about.

This cannot bode well for the maintenance of this "Dispute" idealogy and may well see the beginning of the end for it I would think.

Any other observations from the coal face today ?

Live Drive

Protesting taxi drivers are conducting a rolling blockade on the M50 at the moment. We are told the driver's plan to do 2 loops of the M50 between the M1 and Blanchardstown