Taxi driver strike

oisindoyle

Live Drive wrote: »

Protesting taxi drivers are conducting a rolling blockade on the M50 at the moment. We are told the driver's plan to do 2 loops of the M50 between the M1 and Blanchardstown

How is it a blockade if the traffic is moving ??

Live Drive

oisindoyle wrote: »

How is it a blockade if the traffic is moving ??

It's a rolling blockade so what they do is block all lanes and drive really slowly. There seems to be two or three blocks of drivers.

oisindoyle

Live Drive wrote: »

It's a rolling blockade so what they do is block all lanes and drive really slowly. There seems to be two or three blocks of drivers.

They're not blocking all lanes ,What they are doing is driving in all lanes along the M50 like anyone else does at this time of evening .The only difference is ,people are commenting on it because they have roofs signs.
They are also driving at the appropriate speed limit ,if its 80km they will drive at 80km ,if its 60km they will drive at 60km ,if its 100 they will drive at 100.
All perfectly legal unlike most other drivers who break the speed limit every evening

Live Drive

oisindoyle wrote: »

They're not blocking all lanes ,What they are doing is driving in all lanes along the M50 like anyone else does at this time of evening .The only difference is ,people are commenting on it because they have roofs signs.
They are also driving at the appropriate speed limit ,if its 80km they will drive at 80km ,if its 60km they will drive at 60km ,if its 100 they will drive at 100.
All perfectly legal unlike most other drivers who break the speed limit every evening

We're looking at the cameras on the M50 and they're not doing that. The first wave are currently driving up the Blanchardstown off-ramp at 3 or 4 mph. The second wave are further back and driving about 10mph while blocking the three lanes. Occasionally a taxi will leave the right lane to let some cars pass.

oisindoyle

Live Drive wrote: »

We're looking at the cameras on the M50 and they're not doing that. The first wave are currently driving up the Blanchardstown off-ramp at 3 or 4 mph. The second wave are further back and driving about 10mph while blockign the three lanes. Occasionally a taxi will leave the right lane to let some cars pass.

But according to AA the is/was an accident on the M50 and the backlog is causeing havoc ,so blameing taxi drivers is a bit rich ,when the M50 is heavier than usual this evening

Live Drive

oisindoyle wrote: »

But according to AA the is/was an accident on the M50 and the backlog is causeing havoc ,so blameing taxi drivers is a bit rich ,when the M50 is heavier than usual this evening

Oisin, I should probably point out that Live Drive is a traffic radio program on Dublin City FM. We are looking at live images on Dublin City Council's cameras. The effects of the collision had long since cleared off by the time the blockade started.

Live Drive

The protest seems to have finished now and traffic is back to normal levels

hmmm

They should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, you can't have this type of carry-on on a motorway with the closing speeds involved.

AlekSmart

They should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, you can't have this type of carry-on on a motorway with the closing speeds involved.

I would be confident that prosecutions or indeed even Garda involvement in taking any such steps will be the very last thing you shall see here.

Like it or lump it,Garda policy from the top appears to be to take no direct action but instead simply ensure no breach of the peace occurs.

This (non) policy could be said to be working thus far,however as direct support for this protest dwindles,as it has today,we could see the protesters become bolder and perhaps forcing the Gardai to act..??

hmmm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Like it or lump it,Garda policy from the top appears to be to take no direct action but instead simply ensure no breach of the peace occurs.

True, a pity it would probably take a pileup on a motorway for them to act.

everyday taxi

Driving a taxi today is very stressful. All we want is proper regulation. The following are facts.

1. It has simply become a free for all. Gross amounts of licenses issued, without any kind of monatorium.
2. Foreign nationals mainly and some irish recieving state aid to start up in the business coupled with back to work allowance. Totally unfair to a guy trying to pay his own way, who is not in reciept of welfare.
3. Very large numbers of illegal taxies operating with impunity. We have a mere 9 inforcement officers for the entire country, this is a joke.
4. Part timers, who already have jobs, joining in the already rediculously large fleet of taxies, alot of who are not declaring any of this extra income for tax. The truth is, we have no need for part timers. There is an abundent amount of taxies without them.
5. The intense competition out there is bordering on violence at this stage. It is not unusual to see taxies arguing or racing up the roads for fares. I find it disgusting tbh. It is becoming a health and safety issue.
6. We have a regulator who is completely customer operated. Im all for keeping them happy, but surely drivers are an important part of this, and at the least should have some imput. It was conclusively proving over in europe, at a conference our regulator attended, that market forces dont work in the taxi industry. When bombarded with statistics and solid evidence, Kathleen Doyle was reduced to bowing her head in silence, and had nothing to say.
7. Most drivers have been members of unions, who are sitting silent and watching this gross mismanagement take place. Again i find this disgusting as many of you may know, there have been drivers who sadly took their own lives out of sheer hopelessness (RIP).
8. Everyman and his dog on the streets, knows there are too many taxies now, yet, nothing is been done, to at the very least listen to the drivers protests.

I could go on and on with stories and points of view, but i think i've left you with enough info for now.
ET.

MaceFace

everyday taxi wrote: »

Driving a taxi today is very stressful. All we want is proper regulation. The following are facts.

1. It has simply become a free for all. Gross amounts of licenses issued, without any kind of monatorium.
2. Foreign nationals mainly and some irish recieving state aid to start up in the business coupled with back to work allowance. Totally unfair to a guy trying to pay his own way, who is not in reciept of welfare.
3. Very large numbers of illegal taxies operating with impunity. We have a mere 9 inforcement officers for the entire country, this is a joke.
4. Part timers, who already have jobs, joining in the already rediculously large fleet of taxies, alot of who are not declaring any of this extra income for tax. The truth is, we have no need for part timers. There is an abundent amount of taxies without them.
5. The intense competition out there is bordering on violence at this stage. It is not unusual to see taxies arguing or racing up the roads for fares. I find it disgusting tbh. It is becoming a health and safety issue.
6. We have a regulator who is completely customer operated. Im all for keeping them happy, but surely drivers are an important part of this, and at the least should have some imput. It was conclusively proving over in europe, at a conference our regulator attended, that market forces dont work in the taxi industry. When bombarded with statistics and solid evidence, Kathleen Doyle was reduced to bowing her head in silence, and had nothing to say.
7. Most drivers have been members of unions, who are sitting silent and watching this gross mismanagement take place. Again i find this disgusting as many of you may know, there have been drivers who sadly took their own lives out of sheer hopelessness (RIP).
8. Everyman and his dog on the streets, knows there are too many taxies now, yet, nothing is been done, to at the very least listen to the drivers protests.

I could go on and on with stories and points of view, but i think i've left you with enough info for now.
ET.

As a lay person I have to say that issue number 3 is the only issue that you should expect movement on. Most of the others are no different than any other career available which may sound harsh but is actually true imho.


I honestly don't know why the taxi men/unions don't actually realise that they will not be treated any different than any other private business and they are wasting their time asking for it. Instead, why not push through reforms that are actually good for both the taxi drivers and consumers.

Why not have all taxis with paint jobs that clearly specify them as taxis?
Why not have a yearly registration charge of say 10k that is deductable against future earnings?
Why not push for a much more stringent knowledge test?

Neither of the above would be anti-consumer but it would weed out the part timers.

tin79

Oisin you need a reality check if you think they were driving anywhere near the limit. They were doing 20 kph tops in all 3 lanes when I passed them in the entry/exit lane for Finglas. The backlog was 100% caused by the taxis. Live drive know better than you.

Fully agree with maceface and fully disagree with everyday taxi. If you think taxis are under pressure then join the club along with the whole of the private sector.

Targetting communters who are your bread and butter and who just want to get home on a nice March evening is another new low for the taxis. I will be making a point of getting anything but a taxi home from now on (bus, train, nitelink). I think there will be many more like me too.

And as for point 8 everyday taxi, if everyman and his dog know that there are too much then why not do the decent thing and use the door yourself. No?

I thought so and thats the problem. You all say there are too many taxis but you all think there is still room for you.

bk

everyday taxi wrote: »

6. We have a regulator who is completely customer operated.

Well that is a first, I wish we had more like that, in particular Comreg.

D.McC

KoolKid,

The point you are missing, and the point Taxi Drivers are trying to make is that too much competition is bad. You offer the example of the Security Industry. If 20,000 other security companies, who provide exactly the same product for a controlled price, began operating in the same geographical area as you operate, I suspect you also would have something to moan about. I don’t think we would hear you going on virtues of competition then.

You mention the price of a plate at one point was circa €80,000. This amount minus the tax would equal most retirement or redundancy packages so I don’t see any issue with that. A lot of drivers have worked all their lives, so would shouldn’t they be able to sell up and retire with a nest egg. I wonder how much your business is worth, and how much you’d like to sell it for when you retire.

Now, lets say you have worked all your life, you plan on selling your business for the market price of €80,000 and the PSA comes along and values your business at no more the €6,500. Mmmm! I’m sure you would be real happy to sell up and retire on €6,500 minus tax. You’d soon be on the phone to Joe Duffy!

And don’t start going on about pensions, a lot of drivers, who are business people didn’t have a pension because they like a lot of business people they hoped to sell their business and retire on the money received for that sale.

And the century I refer to, when it was possible to start operating as a taxi with only a roof sign. Well that was less than forty years ago. Hardly a long time, when you consider most of these people would be coming up to retirement around the time of deregulation. Oh sure they got some compensation, but no where near the value of their hoped for nest egg.

Even in the current climate people will still go the pub or restaurant and other places of entertainment, concert tickets still cost an arm & a leg and funny enough are still selling out in record time.

Only now, these people will take the bus. Do you expect Taxi’s to charge a similar price scale to a heavily subsidised semi state company?

You can bet your bottom dollar the convenience store owner will object to another store opening near theirs. They will object to the planning permission, the change of usage, they will object on any grounds they can find; sometimes they win others they lose. Also, on that point, no city authority will authorise permission for a business if the area already has enough of business offering a similar service or product. So in a way regulation offers some protection from competition.

Lets not beat around the bush; some level of security is not only a requirement but necessary for every business in Ireland. Insurance companies will refuse cover, or provide cover with such high premiums the business couldn’t possibly pay them. They are H&S considerations which businesses must consider and in some cases the only fiscally viable option open to them is electronic protection in the form of alarms / CCTV systems.

Now, let’s look at how regulation has provided protection from competition in your industry. There was a time when a small business could employ a local person to watch over their premises at nights and on weekends. Now, that business must look towards licensed security companies to do the same thing. Only this time, the small business also has to meet the additional costs

bk

D.McC wrote: »

You mention the price of a plate at one point was circa €80,000. This amount minus the tax would equal most retirement or redundancy packages so I don’t see any issue with that. A lot of drivers have worked all their lives, so would shouldn’t they be able to sell up and retire with a nest egg. I wonder how much your business is worth, and how much you’d like to sell it for when you retire.

Now, lets say you have worked all your life, you plan on selling your business for the market price of €80,000 and the PSA comes along and values your business at no more the €6,500. Mmmm! I’m sure you would be real happy to sell up and retire on €6,500 minus tax. You’d soon be on the phone to Joe Duffy!

But the problem was it was all based on a completely artificial scarcity. No one ever promised that more licenses wouldn't be issued, in fact the license papers you had to sign to get it or transfer it specifically said so.

The problem that arose, was that the local councils weren't issuing licenses fast enough, which lead to massive undersupply of Taxis, bad experience for people having to wait hours to get a taxi. That is why the industry rightfully needed to be deregulated, so supply could catch up with demand and the artificial bubble got burst (sound familiar, us Irish seem good at repeating our mistakes).

Perhaps things have now gone too far in the other direction, but the general public will never support a return to the old days.

D.McC wrote: »

Even in the current climate people will still go the pub or restaurant and other places of entertainment, concert tickets still cost an arm & a leg and funny enough are still selling out in record time.

Bad example the pub and restaurant trade is way down with pubs and restaurants closing left, right and center or at the very least laying off staff to cut costs.

You are right about concert tickets, but that is a recognised pattern in a recession. People tend to spend more on cheap entertainment, for instance Sky TV subs are way up as people stay in, while the big ticket entertainment items stay level as people like to go to that one or two concert a year as a treat, but the mid tear entertainment items like heading out to the pub/restaurant regularly get way cut back on.

D.McC wrote: »

Only now, these people will take the bus. Do you expect Taxi’s to charge a similar price scale to a heavily subsidised semi state company?

No I expect they will go out of business, like any other business that can't compete.

Oh and BTW public transport isn't heavily subsidised in Ireland, it actually has one of the lowest subsidies in the western world.

everyday taxi

BK you are wrong. Minister for transport issued a letter to worried license holders, there would be no deregulation, its in black and white.
Also you mention the pub and restaurant business going down the tube, me thinks government interference here also made a bags of them too via smoking ban. It is a sore truth in this country, we have ministers who know nothing about their posts, and they bring in legislation willie nillie, more often than not making a balls of things.

D.McC

BK, I welcome your response to the points I’ve made, although they were a reply to an earlier post from kookkid, so you may have read them out of context.

The point that was made by KK, was at one stage a new entry to the Taxi industry couldn’t get a licence for less than 80,000. I was making the point that any business has the right to sell their enterprise for whatever price the market or buyer can stand.

I totally agree with your point that nothing is or was guaranteed, but too have the government de-value your business to such an extent is wrong!

I remember the ‘bad days’ of either having to wait on Dame Street for hours for a taxi or walking most of the distance home on a Saturday night due to a shortage of Taxi’s. But over compensating by issuing too many licences is not the way forward either. One of the demands (if you will) of the Taxi Drivers is for a temporary halt on licence issue.

I agree, the public would never, nor should never return to the days of waiting for hours for a taxi.

As I have said in my reply to Koolkid, if 20,000 or more other business began offering exactly the same service as you in the same geographical area, your business would suffer.

Yes, pubs and restaurants are closing or laying off staff. People now are been much more careful with their money and so will go to the pub or restaurant that offers better value, be it food, atmosphere etc. Those that are closing may not have the business acumen to keep their businesses going.

And to be honest, the pub trade has been slowly dieing since the smoking ban!

But that doesn’t relate to the Taxi industry. Who can only offer the same service as their competitor (all 20,000+ of them), but no room for manoeuvre. Someone earlier stated, ‘they could offer discounts or reduce their prices’, as some companies have. The company may be offering the discount, but this discount only affects the drivers, as the company offers no discount on radio rental or base fees. Surely you aren’t suggesting that each driver offer a greater discount than the next in order to secure the fare. The only winner from this arrangement would be the fool taking people from A to B for free.

All this only leads to reducing the take home pay of the driver.

As you said BK, people might now only treat themselves to one or two gigs a year, but if they do, they travel by public transport.

KoolKid

D.McC wrote: »

KoolKid,

The point you are missing, and the point Taxi Drivers are trying to make is that too much competition is bad. You offer the example of the Security Industry. If 20,000 other security companies, who provide exactly the same product for a controlled price, began operating in the same geographical area as you operate, I suspect you also would have something to moan about. I don’t think we would hear you going on virtues of competition then.

Have you not read many of my posts?
Thats competition. That is the world we live in. It happens we all sorts of business every day.
Again I ask, why should Taxi drivers be protected from competition when other industry's are not?
Please answer the question.................
How is competition bad? The service has drastically improved. No more of the crap from drivers... Sorry I'm not going that way

D.McC wrote: »

You mention the price of a plate at one point was circa €80,000. This amount minus the tax would equal most retirement or redundancy packages so I don’t see any issue with that.A lot of drivers have worked all their lives, so would shouldn’t they be able to sell up and retire with a nest egg. I wonder how much your business is worth, and how much you’d like to sell it for when you retire.

Have you any idea how business works?
You invest in a business, you work hard & build up that business & if you done the job right you make a living & your business is worth something & you seel it. But no taxi drivers , as usual want it all.
And if you answer is the taxi industry is different. then clearly the industry does not suit you or your needs, so make a good businees decision & get out of it.

D.McC wrote: »

Now, lets say you have worked all your life, you plan on selling your business for the market price of €80,000 and the PSA comes along and values your business at no more the €6,500. Mmmm! I’m sure you would be real happy to sell up and retire on €6,500 minus tax. You’d soon be on the phone to Joe Duffy!

But the value of my business was/is not inflated by limiting competition.
Which is what the Taxi drivers want.

D.McC wrote: »

And don’t start going on about pensions, a lot of drivers, who are business people didn’t have a pension because they like a lot of business people they hoped to sell their business and retire on the money received for that sale.

Wasn't that silly of them?
There was a false artificial value on thier business & they didn't allow for that ever changing. Did they thing they could just treat thier customers like dirt forever?

D.McC wrote: »

And the century I refer to, when it was possible to start operating as a taxi with only a roof sign. Well that was less than forty years ago.

Thank God we have come along way in 40 years.

D.McC wrote: »

Even in the current climate people will still go the pub or restaurant and other places of entertainment, concert tickets still cost an arm & a leg and funny enough are still selling out in record time.

Lots going out of business also. Tahts supply & demand for ya.

D.McC wrote: »

Only now, these people will take the bus. Do you expect Taxi’s to charge a similar price scale to a heavily subsidised semi state company?

I think they should learn to compete.

D.McC wrote: »

You can bet your bottom dollar the convenience store owner will object to another store opening near theirs. They will object to the planning permission, the change of usage, they will object on any grounds they can find; sometimes they win others they lose. Also, on that point, no city authority will authorise permission for a business if the area already has enough of business offering a similar service or product. So in a way regulation offers some protection from competition.

????
Have you never seen a Spar a Centra beside each other?
What about Aldi & Lidl?
What have you seen a shop owner strike?
Have you ever seen a security company go on strike because of competition?

D.McC wrote: »

Lets not beat around the bush; some level of security is not only a requirement but necessary for every business in Ireland. Insurance companies will refuse cover, or provide cover with such high premiums the business couldn’t possibly pay them. They are H&S considerations which businesses must consider and in some cases the only fiscally viable option open to them is electronic protection in the form of alarms / CCTV systems.

Yes. and we all have to compete for that business.

D.McC wrote: »

Now, let’s look at how regulation has provided protection from competition in your industry. There was a time when a small business could employ a local person to watch over their premises at nights and on weekends. Now, that business must look towards licensed security companies to do the same thing.

But there is no cap on whow many company's or individuals can enter the industry.

MaceFace

everyday taxi wrote: »

BK you are wrong. Minister for transport issued a letter to worried license holders, there would be no deregulation, its in black and white.
Also you mention the pub and restaurant business going down the tube, me thinks government interference here also made a bags of them too via smoking ban. It is a sore truth in this country, we have ministers who know nothing about their posts, and they bring in legislation willie nillie, more often than not making a balls of things.

It was very clear for a number of years before deregulation that it was going to happen. There was no doubt about that but yet there was still people investing in taxi plates who buried their head in the sand not believing what was happening in front of them.
It is akin to anyone who purchased property since late 2006.

You can blame the government for many of the problems in the country today but the only people who have been negatively affected by deregulation are the taxi drivers/companies.

Taxi drivers need to admit to themselves that we are not going back to having less than 3000 taxis in Dublin, and the industry has changed to become extremely difficult to survive and the only way to improve the welfare of the drivers is to suggest and push through changes that are not detremental to the end user.

D.McC

You cannot simply reply to everything with the stock answer of ‘well that’s competition’.

The service has improved, but at what cost? Don’t the men and women who operate taxi’s have the same right to earn a wage as others?

I understand how business works. There are many taxi drivers who have invested in their business, done the job right, and were making a living only for it suddenly to be valued at €6,500.

Now, let me ask the question again. Would you attitude be any different if your business was suddenly valued at €6,500. Would you feel the same if your retirement package was reduced to this amount?

Your refusal to answer this question the first time speaks volumes.

Please to do patronise me, of course I’ve seen the stores you mention side by side. But do try and remember these stores are co-ops and therefore are backed up financially by the brand. They do compete, but if one store is failing, it is supported by the brand. What you will never see, is Tesco, Dunnes, M&S, Spar and Centra operating cheek by jowl.

As each would resist the opening of the other!

Security companies don’t strike, you need to research your industry my friend. Securior workers picketed the coin depot for increased safety not too long ago.

You may have to compete with a small number of other business’s offering a similar product to the end user, but I wonder how long you’d shout ‘competition is good’ when there are 20,000 + companies looking for that same business.

You also never answered my question regarding the alarm engineer securing guaranteed future work by refusing my request for the installer / engineer code for MY alarm system.

Would this be because he can rest assured that I must re-engage his services again or face higher costs associated with having a new engineer service the alarms.

On a final note, I do hope you spell check before dealing with your client, as you seem to have forgotten to do so.

In my position, a badly spelled sales pitch or contract would mean the end of the road for a company seeking to do business with me.

For the record, I do not, nor have I ever driven a taxi or been involved in the taxi business.

But as a business person, in the same industry as you I believe the taxi drivers have some valid points.

Taxipete29

http://www.etcproceedings.org/paper/the-economics-of-taxi-industry-regulation

This is from the European Transport Conference in 2007. I think it makes a few interesting and valid points.

I especially like this bit.

"The positive expectations with respect to deregulation of the taxi industry were based on the belief that the industry is an atomistic industry with minor fixed costs which should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs. Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive."

bk

The fundamental issue here is that in order to get taxi income back to a reasonable level, control of license numbers will need to be introduced and likely at least 50% (probably closer to 75%) of current taxi drivers basically fired.

The problem no taxi driver here has answered is which 50 to 75% of drivers will be fired and will you be willing to be one of those fired?

In typical Irish fashion, every taxi driver agrees that there needs to be less taxi's, but no taxi driver is willing for it to be themselves who leaves.

The other approach is to simply wait until enough drivers give up due to not making enough money until the market returns to equilibrium. That is pretty normal market practice.

That is tough, but then again, most small businesses fail too.

KoolKid

D.McC wrote: »

You cannot simply reply to everything with the stock answer of ‘well that’s competition’.

And taxi drivers can simply keep avoiding the questions.
Why should taxi drivers be protected against competition.

D.McC wrote: »

The service has improved, but at what cost? Don’t the men and women who operate taxi’s have the same right to earn a wage as others?

Yes.. ofcourse. But at the same time taxi drivers want to deny others ,who are happy to invest thier money in a taxi, the same right.
Have cake and eat it again.

D.McC wrote: »

I understand how business works. There are many taxi drivers who have invested in their business, done the job right, and were making a living only for it suddenly to be valued at €6,500.

But that had to happen. The value was false because taxi drivers had unfair protection against competition.

D.McC wrote: »

Now, let me ask the question again. Would you attitude be any different if your business was suddenly valued at €6,500. Would you feel the same if your retirement package was reduced to this amount?

The value of business change every day. Look at all the big company's worth millions that have suddenly vanished. Now worth nothing. Basic economics. If the value of my business changed so be it. Would I feel differently? No! Anyone who understands business knows there are risks,nothing is for certain. If I can't make a profit in the business I am in I get out of it. If I am not able for the competition I get out of it. There is no such thing as too much competition. The laws of supply & demand make sure of that. The only difference with the taxi industry is those laws are taking a bit longer to take effect. Why? Because some taxi drivers have no business sense & are too stubborn. They all agree there should be less taxis. How many have packed in the job?. If the regulator said in the morning ok lets halve the number of taxis, the same drivers would be out protesting again

I have prepared for my retirement. In the currant climate that might well reduce. Would I blame the world & its mother & ask fo unfair protection agains competition ? NO!

D.McC wrote: »

Your refusal to answer this question the first time speaks volumes.

As does the refusal of every taxi driver to answer why do taxi drivers deserve unfair protection against competition?

D.McC wrote: »

Please to do patronise me, of course I’ve seen the stores you mention side by side. But do try and remember these stores are co-ops and therefore are backed up financially by the brand.

So you have never seen 2 or more independent shops in close proximity?

D.McC wrote: »

They do compete, but if one store is failing, it is supported by the brand.

So you will never see these shops close down? Is that what you are saying here?

D.McC wrote: »

What you will never see, is Tesco, Dunnes, M&S, Spar and Centra operating cheek by jowl.

Tesco & dunnes are in the same market. They compete in most areas
Spar & centra are in the same market , they compete in most areas.
Not sure what you are trying to point out here?

D.McC wrote: »

As each would resist the opening of the other!

Can you post some examples of this? As most of those you mentioned are usually in close proximity of each other. I don't get what you are saying here.

D.McC wrote: »

Security companies don’t strike, you need to research your industry my friend. Securior workers picketed the coin depot for increased safety not too long ago.

The workers not the security company. A valid strike IMO. Not an illegal protest looking for unfair protection against competition within the industry.

D.McC wrote: »

You may have to compete with a small number of other business’s offering a similar product to the end user, but I wonder how long you’d shout ‘competition is good’ when there are 20,000 + companies looking for that same business.

Like I said , I would either compete or get out of the industry.
But I would not hold illegal protests looking for unfair protection

D.McC wrote: »

You also never answered my question regarding the alarm engineer securing guaranteed future work by refusing my request for the installer / engineer code for MY alarm system.

Give me one example of how that has secured gauranteed future work?
An alarm engineer would not be even making that decision it would be a company. If an engineer code is requested you have already lost that custom. Refusing the code will not secure any future business.
As any decent alarm company & any decent engineer can unlock a panel anyway that argument is irrelevant.

D.McC wrote: »

Would this be because he can rest assured that I must re-engage his services again or face higher costs associated with having a new engineer service the alarms.

Irrelevant. See above

D.McC wrote: »

On a final note, I do hope you spell check before dealing with your client, as you seem to have forgotten to do so.

Totally irrelevant to your arguments & pointless really.

D.McC wrote: »

In my position, a badly spelled sales pitch or contract would mean the end of the road for a company seeking to do business with me.

I am more interested in quality of goods & service myself.
Badly spelled ??? Does that sound correct to you?

Del2005

D.McC wrote: »

Please to do patronise me, of course I’ve seen the stores you mention side by side. But do try and remember these stores are co-ops and therefore are backed up financially by the brand. They do compete, but if one store is failing, it is supported by the brand. What you will never see, is Tesco, Dunnes, M&S, Spar and Centra operating cheek by jowl.

As each would resist the opening of the other!

All the small local shops are franchises. They aren't owned by Spar or Centra, they are owned by individuals who pay to be allowed to use the brand on their shops and are required to buy their stock off the franchise owner.

I'm sure if you ask your average local convenience store owner how many hours they are doing and if they are making a decent living you'll here the same complaints as taxi men. Do you see these men and women, you've made much bigger outlays then taxi drivers, out blocking the roads when a Lidl/Aldi/Tesco opens close to them?

everyday taxi

Taxipete29 wrote: »

http://www.etcproceedings.org/paper/the-economics-of-taxi-industry-regulation

This is from the European Transport Conference in 2007. I think it makes a few interesting and valid points.

I especially like this bit.

"The positive expectations with respect to deregulation of the taxi industry were based on the belief that the industry is an atomistic industry with minor fixed costs which should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs. Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive."

It was proven here and in other countries, market forces dont work as expected to in the taxi industry. So i wish all of you who keep spewing the "competition" rule would give it a rest, its not relevant.
There are others who keep spewing the "we dont want the old way to come back" regards waiting hours for taxies. This will never happen, as the current numbers cannot be "taken" back. It just proves the lack of education on such matters, so people who throw up these arguments should be ignored, because they are out of touch.

everyday taxi

Del2005 wrote: »

All the small local shops are franchises. They aren't owned by Spar or Centra, they are owned by individuals who pay to be allowed to use the brand on their shops and are required to buy their stock off the franchise owner.

I'm sure if you ask your average local convenience store owner how many hours they are doing and if they are making a decent living you'll here the same complaints as taxi men. Do you see these men and women, you've made much bigger outlays then taxi drivers, out blocking the roads when a Lidl/Aldi/Tesco opens close to them?

These convenience stores you speak of, may have 1 or 2 stores around the same vacinity, not 10,000 others competing, again another poster who knows everything and nothing. How can you realistically expect to know more abt my industry than me? Its ignorance to think you do.

Del2005

everyday taxi wrote: »

These convenience stores you speak of, may have 1 or 2 stores around the same vacinity, not 10,000 others competing, again another poster who knows everything and nothing. How can you realistically expect to know more abt my industry than me? Its ignorance to think you do.

It's ignorant to think other people don't know anything. I never claimed to know more about your industry then you. I was pointing out that shops are small businesses who are having a tough time, yet they are not doing illegal acts to try and bully the people into stopping more competition enter the market.

KoolKid

everyday taxi wrote: »

It was proven here and in other countries, market forces dont work as expected to in the taxi industry. So i wish all of you who keep spewing the "competition" rule would give it a rest, its not relevant.

Please explain why.Please explain why taxi drivers deserve protection.
And please explain how others operating in the industry is not competition.

everyday taxi wrote: »

There are others who keep spewing the "we dont want the old way to come back" regards waiting hours for taxies. This will never happen, as the current numbers cannot be "taken" back. It just proves the lack of education on such matters, so people who throw up these arguments should be ignored, because they are out of touch.

So you can't reduce the number of taxis on the road. And things are so bad that there is no money to be made in driving a taxi, right?
So is the number of taxi drivers in the industry still rising?
If no then whats the problem?
If yes then clearly its the taxi drivers that have a lack of education. Investing in a business where there is no money.?
Interesting your use of the word spewing. What I see here is debate. If you want examples of spewing you should look over at http://irishtaxi.org/forum/

everyday taxi wrote: »

These convenience stores you speak of, may have 1 or 2 stores around the same vacinity, not 10,000 others competing, again another poster who knows everything and nothing.

The argument is still the same. Those shops are not protected from competition. Those shops do no go disrupting peoples lives crying because things are bad & they don't know how to compete in the real world.

everyday taxi wrote: »

How can you realistically expect to know more abt my industry than me? .

Whats ignorant is for you to presume you know it all. Clearly most people here know more about business than you do.

everyday taxi

Del2005 wrote: »

It's ignorant to think other people don't know anything. I never claimed to know more about your industry then you. I was pointing out that shops are small businesses who are having a tough time, yet they are not doing illegal acts to try and bully the people into stopping more competition enter the market.

For someone to have something explained to them, and come back again and again to argue would indicate to me they think they know more? When did i say other people know nothing? You clearly display a lack of ability to converse without getting confused. You sound to me like a person who has a gripe with taxi men and their protests, and you have your mind made up, and think you know it all. Lets leave it at that.

KoolKid

everyday taxi wrote: »

For someone to have something explained to them, and come back again and again to argue would indicate to me they think they know more?

For someone to be asked question over & over again & refuse to answer would indicate to me they know less. Why don't you answer the questions I put to you?

everyday taxi wrote: »

You clearly display a lack of ability to converse without getting confused.

You clearly have no debating skills. Resorting to insults simply loses you any credability.
Then again you already know that. Hence this remark

everyday taxi wrote: »

Lets leave it at that.

everyday taxi wrote: »

You sound to me like a person who has a gripe with taxi men and their protests.

Most people would have a gripe with any group protesting illegally & disrupting thier lives. Do taxi drivers really expect sympathy if they.
Illegally protest.
Think they know more than everyone else.
Think they should get protection while the rest of the country is also suffering in a recession.
I don't think so..
Look at the poll in the other thread. Less than 20% last time I looked.
Thats worse than Brian Cowan FFS.

Taxipete29

Taxipete29 wrote: »

http://www.etcproceedings.org/paper/the-economics-of-taxi-industry-regulation

This is from the European Transport Conference in 2007. I think it makes a few interesting and valid points.

I especially like this bit.

"The positive expectations with respect to deregulation of the taxi industry were based on the belief that the industry is an atomistic industry with minor fixed costs which should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs. Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive."

I am still waiting on a non-taxi driver to comment on this.

paulm17781

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I am still waiting on a non-taxi driver to comment on this.

It says "should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs"

I don't think taxi services are being provided at minimum cost.

It then says "Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive."

Clearly it was naive.

I'm not really sure what your question is. The extract pretty much says that the industry isn't competitive.

KoolKid

The problem here seems to be that taxi drivers simply can't grasp the concept of competing for business. Everytime competing on price is suggested the response is about charging more. Every business at the moment is cutting prices and giving discounts to get business. Why can't more taxi drivers think the same. When ye start competing against each other, like in any other industry, then the numbers will reduce as those who can't make a profit get out. But what are taxi drivers doing? Blaming everyone else. Its not one Happy social club lads. You are in competition against each other for business. Run it like a business and the market forces will prevail.

Taxipete29

paulm17781 wrote: »

It says "should therefore develop into a perfectly competitive industry, providing taxi services at minimum costs"

I don't think taxi services are being provided at minimum cost.

It then says "Given the experience with the deregulation of the taxi industry these expectations seem to have been naive."

Clearly it was naive.

I'm not really sure what your question is. The extract pretty much says that the industry isn't competitive.

The authors of the document are obviously of the opinion that de-regulation was not the cure all it was expected to be and that not everything can be left up to the market.

Taxi fares have risen because of increased competition. That doesnt usually happen in a normal market. Now while discounting has probably lowered the actual cost of pre-booking a taxi, street cars mostly just work off the meter with little or no discounts. Therefore the price of Taxis is very high

Competition is responsible for the high cost of Taxis in this country. If you want lower prices you have to allow the number of Taxis to fall ( to levels acceptable for both driver and customer and constantly under review) through natural wastage and temporarily stopping people entering the market.

Individual drivers competing on price is all very well in small towns but in Dublin its almost impossible to do so. While I do believe that having a radio is the only option for drivers to make a living now, these firms bleed drivers as much as they possibly can and there is little drivers can do about it.

The Taxi service in this country is a joke in all respects bar availablity. I got out because in the end my business was failed. I made great money for a few years and then scratched a living for a little over a year before getting a job.
I do know how to run a business. There is literally nothing I didnt try to make more money, but in the end it just was not worth the effort.

To the drivers on here: You will never organise drivers in sufficent numbers, under the one banner to ever make a difference to the industry. Also you will never win an argument on this forum about re-regulating the industry.

To non-drivers: The Taxi industry has not conformed to the basic laws of competition since de-regulation and nor will it ever. The experiment while not a total failure as it serves the public well, has failed the service provider.
Its time to change things so conditions dont get any worse for customers or drivers

Taxipete29

koolkid wrote: »

The problem here seems to be that taxi drivers simply can't grasp the concept of competing for business. Everytime competing on price is suggested the response is about charging more. Every business at the moment is cutting prices and giving discounts to get business. Why can't more taxi drivers think the same. When ye start competing against each other, like in any other industry, then the numbers will reduce as those who can't make a profit get out. But what are taxi drivers doing? Blaming everyone else. Its not one Happy social club lads. You are in competition against each other for business. Run it like a business and the market forces will prevail.

Why cant you grasp the idea that not every single industry is exactly the same and that market forces dont work in every situation.

Jaysoose

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The authors of the document are obviously of the opinion that de-regulation was not the cure all it was expected to be and that not everything can be left up to the market.

Taxi fares have risen because of increased competition. That doesnt usually happen in a normal market. Now while discounting has probably lowered the actual cost of pre-booking a taxi, street cars mostly just work off the meter with little or no discounts. Therefore the price of Taxis is very high

Competition is responsible for the high cost of Taxis in this country. If you want lower prices you have to allow the number of Taxis to fall ( to levels acceptable for both driver and customer and constantly under review) through natural wastage and temporarily stopping people entering the market.

Individual drivers competing on price is all very well in small towns but in Dublin its almost impossible to do so. While I do believe that having a radio is the only option for drivers to make a living now, these firms bleed drivers as much as they possibly can and there is little drivers can do about it.

The Taxi service in this country is a joke in all respects bar availablity. I got out because in the end my business was failed. I made great money for a few years and then scratched a living for a little over a year before getting a job.
I do know how to run a business. There is literally nothing I didnt try to make more money, but in the end it just was not worth the effort.

To the drivers on here: You will never organise drivers in sufficent numbers, under the one banner to ever make a difference to the industry. Also you will never win an argument on this forum about re-regulating the industry.

To non-drivers: The Taxi industry has not conformed to the basic laws of competition since de-regulation and nor will it ever. The experiment while not a total failure as it serves the public well, has failed the service provider.
Its time to change things so conditions dont get any worse for customers or drivers

What a load of twaddle, so basically market forces do not apply to the taxi industry because more drivers means less customers so the price of the service has to rise to maintain current drivers expenses?

Its funny that the taxi drivers hide behind the meter etc when we all know that the service provided for the price is far to high and in a recession more and more people are using public transport. The industries response to this dilemma is to block roads causing people trying to go about their lives the most hassle they can.

Its a pathetic attitude by the taxi men to expect the people they are affecting so negatively to still stump up for the service they provide. To be honest im sick and fcuking tired of having my day to day life disrupted by a bunch of people that cant grasp the basic principles of business and believe its everybody else fault that they are finding it hard to make a living.

Taxipete29

Jaysoose wrote: »

What a load of twaddle, so basically market forces do not apply to the taxi industry because more drivers means less customers so the price of the service has to rise to maintain current drivers expenses?

Its funny that the taxi drivers hide behind the meter etc when we all know that the service provided for the price is far to high and in a recession more and more people are using public transport. The industries response to this dilemma is to block roads causing people trying to go about their lives the most hassle they can.

Its a pathetic attitude by the taxi men to expect the people they are affecting so negatively to still stump up for the service they provide. To be honest im sick and fcuking tired of having my day to day life disrupted by a bunch of people that cant grasp the basic principles of business and believe its everybody else fault that they are finding it hard to make a living.

Coventional market forces do not apply in the same way as they do in other industries imo. You only have to look at the increase in taxi prices since de-regulation. Its a far more expensive service. The regulator sets the Max fare which like it or not is the default price for most operators.

If you can explain to me how 14k + taxi drivers can compete with each other individually I am sure many would be delighted to hear it Now you have to take into account what is financially viable and also what is practical.

Personally I dont really care but it all very well to say its all a load of twaddle without actually offering a counter argument.;)

HydeRoad

As an ex taxi driver, who couldn't continue taxiing because I couldn't afford to buy a replacement car to continue in business, I was forced to leave, and spent an entire year with NO income, no social welfare, no anything.

I remember once as a small child, being in a playground, playing on a roundabout. A kind of wooden platform with handrails, which spun around on a central axis. A group of larger kids came over and jumped on, and started pushing the roundabout too fast. I lost my grip and fell under the side of it. The kids wouldn't stop pushing, and as the roundabout spun violently, the skin was torn off the whole length of my arm, which was being dragged further under the mechanism of the machine.

That is what this taxi market is doing to taxi drivers. You cannot simply 'step off' and do something else. It ruins you. I am now driving a bus, and every shilling I earn goes to pay off the debts incurred by living and paying bills for a year with no income. Plus the money I invested in what I thought was a legitimate business, before the government started handing out licenses and assistance to entirely unsuitable people for free. I was an ass thinking that sitting a test counted for anything.

Last Saturday night, I made the mistake of driving my bus down O'Connell Street. The whole street was jammed, both lanes, with wall to wall taxis. No other buses, no private cars, just taxis. I don't know how many taxis it takes to fill one side of O'Connell Street. but it must have been multiples of a hundred. Every taxi I could see was empty, and every taxi had their yellow light on. It took twenty minutes to get from the top of O'Connell Street to the bottom. I'd have loved to use my mobile phone to film it, but I wouldn't want my group of passengers to see me doing that.

Of all those hundreds of taxis, how many were using 'sat-navs' to find their way around Dublin? How many were small, dirty, unsuitable cars? How many were drivers missing some item of required paperwork, either proper insurance, or licence, or legal plate, or a combination of same? How many were driving under someone else's licence? How many were driving in Dublin only licensed for somewhere else entirely?

For two hours from 1am to 3am, the drunken revellers of Dublin could stagger out of the nightclubs in any state of intoxication, raise an unsteady hand, and a taxi would be there instantly. No queues at all. For the entire rest of the night, and the whole week, the city is an unnavigable mess of empty taxis, circulating, getting in everyone else's and each other's way, nowhere to park, wasting fuel, destroying the environment and the relaxation of the city, and with just nine inspectors countrywide to see who is operating legally and who is not.

Don't anyone here try to tell me that this is somehow good and correct, that this is how a taxi service should be provided. Noel Dempsey should go out some night, in all good faith, drive a taxi for the night, and then come back and start formulating taxi policy.

Calina

I personally am not arguing in favour of de-regulation; I am, however, arguing in favour of different regulations that I see called for from the taxi-driver groupings.

1) there seems to be this belief that limiting the numbers will fix the problem. It won't. For the average person who pays the taxi driver, the issue is not the number of available taxis, but the standard of said taxis.

2) if you want to create an entry barrier that will effectively a) reduce numbers and b) enhance the customer experience, you do it in a standards related manner.

I have heard taxi representatives complain - amongst other things - about the possibility that they would have to drive cars of a specific profile post Jan 2011 - ie cars 9 years old or less.

The issue - as I see it - is that limiting the number of taxis in isolation only affects potential entrants to the market. Imposing basic standards affects all taxi drivers including those drivers complaining about deregulation.

I'd like to point out that without some sort of price regulation, there is no way taxi rates now would be what they were 10 years ago so I don't buy the "taxis are more expensive now so deregulation has failed" argument. You have had immense fuel price inflation and this has in part - not in whole - been reflected in taxi prices. Deflation is happening - I have loyalty cards from two different companies entitling me to substantial discounts right now. The argument over maximum prices has been played out on this board several times and I recall that on occasion there have been complaints from taxi drivers that rates were not raised adequately vis a vis their costs on the fuel and insurance front. Taxi regulation is not directly responsible for this.

The point - which appears not to be addressed here as far as I can see - is that it's not just a question of limiting access to new entrants. If the oversupply on the taxi front in Dublin is so horrific, then a good lot of people are going to have exit the industry. I haven't seen anyone arguing that they are prepared to do this. Only that they are entitled to this, or they are entitled to that.

Jaysoose

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Coventional market forces do not apply in the same way as they do in other industries imo. You only have to look at the increase in taxi prices since de-regulation. Its a far more expensive service. The regulator sets the Max fare which like it or not is the default price for most operators.

If you can explain to me how 14k + taxi drivers can compete with each other individually I am sure many would be delighted to hear it Now you have to take into account what is financially viable and also what is practical.

Personally I dont really care but it all very well to say its all a load of twaddle without actually offering a counter argument.;)

This is not true and you know it, the only reason the price has remained constant is because taxi drivers dont want to take a hit...simple as that. The only people keeping the costs high are the drivers.

The only reason normal market forces dont apply here (in your opinion) is because it wouldnt suit the arguments put forward by the drivers themselves.

The attitude "The regulator sets the Max fare which like it or not is the default price for most operators." speaks volumes as to why the taxi industry is in the mess it is now, maybe if drivers pulled their heads out of the sand and accepted some responisbility for the state of their industry instead of throwing all the blame onto the regulator a resolution could be found but instead its "we are sufferring so the public gets it"...and you wonder why people have no sympathy for your 'Plight'.

Taxipete29

Jaysoose wrote: »

This is not true and you know it, the only reason the price has remained constant is because taxi drivers dont want to take a hit...simple as that. The only people keeping the costs high are the drivers.

The only reason normal market forces dont apply here (in your opinion) is because it wouldnt suit the arguments put forward by the drivers themselves.

The attitude "The regulator sets the Max fare which like it or not is the default price for most operators." speaks volumes as to why the taxi industry is in the mess it is now, maybe if drivers pulled their heads out of the sand and accepted some responisbility for the state of their industry instead of throwing all the blame onto the regulator a resolution could be found but instead its "we are sufferring so the public gets it"...and you wonder why people have no sympathy for your 'Plight'.

Its not my plight. I left the industry and surrendered my PSV licence .


Taxi drivers do not set:

Fuel prices
Insurance prices
Plate licence prices
Meter costs

So how in your mind have drivers kept costs high??

You have offered no counter argument. You are just ranting now.

Put together an argument and then come back.

Jaysoose

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Its not my plight. I left the industry and surrendered my PSV licence .


Taxi drivers do not set:

Fuel prices
Insurance prices
Plate licence prices
Meter costs

So how in your mind have drivers kept costs high??

You have offered no counter argument. You are just ranting now.

Put together an argument and then come back.

lol @ this.

Calina

Jaysoose wrote: »

lol @ this.

Not productive. Another post like this and you'll be infracted or banned. Clear?

Jaysoose

Calina wrote: »

Not productive. Another post like this and you'll be infracted or banned. Clear?

Clear as mud...i found his post funny whats with getting your knickers in a twist....i could give a **** if you banned me.

KoolKid

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why cant you grasp the idea that not every single industry is exactly the same and that market forces dont work in every situation.

Because as of yet I have not heard one convincing reason why The taxi industry is different. Same as I am still awaiting a logical answer as to why Taxi Drivers should be given protection from competition.
Forget all the smoke & daggers. This is what it boils down to. I have explained above why I think market forces don't work in the industry. But they will, the laws of economics were written by smarter people than you or I. But then again taxi driver know more than anyone.:rolleyes:

Taxipete29

koolkid wrote: »

Because as of yet I have not heard one convincing reason why The taxi industry is different. Same as I am still awaiting a logical answer as to why Taxi Drivers should be given protection from competition.
Forget all the smoke & daggers. This is what it boils down to. I have explained above why I think market forces don't work in the industry. But they will, the laws of economics were written by smarter people than you or I. But then again taxi driver know more than anyone.:rolleyes:

There are laws in exact sciences. Economics is not an exact science. There are no laws. There are theories. They hold true in alot of cases, not in all though.

Your contradicting yourself. " Market forces dont work but they will"??? Makes no sense at all im afraid..

You may not realise that this scenario has arisen in many countries around the world. Many have de-regulated and then when that has failed due to the inability of operators to earn a living, they have re-regulated. Its not like the Irish Taxi industry thinks its special. They have seen the same thing in other countries.

Read what Hyde Road wrote. Do you honestly think that is good for anyone??
There is a level where consumers can have great availability and drivers can make money. You will never find it though under current conditions.
When times are good people want to be Taxi drivers because it is seen as an easy way to make money and when times are bad( like now) people use redundancy etc to get in because there is little other options.

I will debate with you no problem, but save the smart remarks for someone else, they are as inacccurate as they are juvenile. I have highlighted the bit I mean

KoolKid

Taxipete29 wrote: »

.

Your contradicting yourself. " Market forces dont work but they will"??? Makes no sense at all im afraid..

Do not cut my quotes to suite your meaning. The full context was.

I have explained above why I think market forces don't work in the industry But they will.

They will work when taxi drivers start treating thier work as a business. They are not doing that at present. When they do that & start competing they will force those who are unable to survive out of the business, Harsh I know but thats how business works. Despite what you think the taxi industry is not different. The problem is insted of taxi drivers concentrating on competing & driving others out, they are under the impression they are all mates & working for the same company. They are unwilling or unable to compete so they want the government to protect them from that competition,

Taxipete29

koolkid wrote: »

Do not cut my quotes to suite your meaning. The full context was.

They will work when taxi drivers start treating thier work as a business. They are not doing that at present. When they do that & start competing they will force those who are unable to survive out of the business, Harsh I know but thats how business works. Despite what you think the taxi industry is not different. The problem is insted of taxi drivers concentrating on competing & driving others out, they are under the impression they are all mates & working for the same company. They are unwilling or unable to compete so they want the government to protect them from that competition,

How do you suggest Taxi drivers compete against each other more than they are??? This is the bit you keep saying but you cant give any proper suggestions that someone can say "Oh maybe your right" or " That wont work because".

Give even one suggestion because I really want to know what way you are thinking on this

KoolKid

Taxipete29 wrote: »

How do you suggest Taxi drivers compete against each other more than they are??? This is the bit you keep saying but you cant give any proper suggestions that someone can say "Oh maybe your right" or " That wont work because".

Give even one suggestion because I really want to know what way you are thinking on this

Compete on price. Hand out cards etc.. Discount for those who call you etc