Broken Ireland

hinault

The latest issue : Tallaght Hospital "failed" to monitor/assess 50k+ X-rays.

The banks are insolvent.

The govt has gone missing.

The Roman Catholic Church is dragged kicking and screaming to accepting their responsibilities regarding paedophilia etc.

Throw in Hepatitis C debacle, the banks overcharging scandal, DIRT tax scandal, Anglo Irish scandal, symphysiotomy scandal, Fr Brendan Smith scandal, Dr Michael Neary issue, FAS scandal.................................and on and on it goes.

For a small country, we're experts at making a balls of things.

People need to start getting angry and getting radicalised.

Why do we accept all of this?

Bigdeadlydave

Ok OP, off ya go, fix it. I'm sure people in every country in the world have something to moan about, but how about for a change people stop bitching? There are people who have it MUCH worse! I'm really fed up with people moaning about how messed up Eire is. In the grand scheme of things we actually have it pretty good. Get angry and radicalized? Be a bit clearer perhaps?

Go get some perspective for Gods sake. I'm grateful that we live in a relatively free country, have no natural disasters and have a good standard of living. Other people in countries were they are persecuted or suffer from famines would love to live here. Our problems are minuscule when compared to those of others. Thats not to say something shouldn't be done to solve them but calling our fine country "broken Ireland" is a joke.

hinault

Dave : the country is in a very serious situation.
And to turn around and to suggest that because some other countries are in a worse position than us, somehow justifies our situation?
C'mon.

It is not acceptable that the citizens of this country tolerate the series of scandals/rips off/incompetence/criminal activity that has been the case for the past two decades.

I'm the bad guy for suggesting that people sit back and accept things.

P. Breathnach

hinault wrote: »

... Why do we accept all of this?

And what is the alternative: say that we don't accept it?

hinault

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And what is the alternative: say that we don't accept it?

I don't know what the alternative is.
Revolution? I don't know.
But something has to change, hasn't it?
Or are we doomed to live with the same mediocrity for years to come?
Hand the keys back to Britain and say "we tried to run this country for the last 90 years.We failed. Take us back, please"?


I am astounded that public are not up in arms over the plethora of issue which have occured in this country.
NAMA should have been the catalyst for people being angry and taking the issue to the streets.

Your future, you childrens future, is being mortgaged to save the people who squandered and destroyed this economy and the politicians who aided and abetted the guilty parties.

What other nation would tolerate the series of scandals that the public of this country have tolerated for the past two decades?

Bigdeadlydave

Dave : the country is in a very serious situation.
And to turn around and to suggest that because some other countries are in a worse position than us, somehow justifies our situation?

Justifies our situation? Were did I say that? Our situation is not half as bad as people like yourself and others make out. No place is perfect. There is no Utopia(literally means "no place"). We have it a lot better than many others.

It is not acceptable that the citizens of this country tolerate the series of scandals/rips off/incompetence/criminal activity that has been the case for the past two decades.

So what should they do then? These types of problems are hardly exclusive to Eire. You cant change human nature.

A rise of the proletariat perhaps? Theres not much anyone can do really except try their best. What do you mean by radicalize?

Bigdeadlydave

I

don't know what the alternative is.
Revolution? I don't know.
But something has to change, hasn't it?
Or are we doomed to live with the same mediocrity for years to come?

Revolution? I lold. Mediocrity? Ive had it pretty good so far thanks.

Hand the keys back to Britain and say "we tried to run this country for the last 90 years.We failed. Take us back, please"?

Yeah thats right things were MUCH better when they were in charge.:rolleyes:

Your future, you childrens future, is being mortgaged to save the people who squandered and destroyed this economy and the politicians who aided and abetted the guilty parties.

Hey, I'm 18 and have grown up with this Celtic tiger. The banks aren't solely to blame. People didn't have to get the bloody loans. People could have saved more. Its everyones fault. Its easy to blame faceless bankers isn't it? People lived way beyond their means.

hinault

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Justifies our situation? Were did I say that? Our situation is not half as bad as people like yourself and others make out. No place is perfect. There is no Utopia(literally means "no place"). We have it a lot better than many others.

I never suggested that any place was perfect.
However.
I have suggested that this country is in a mess - and it is in an unaccountable mess.

By unaccountable mess, I mean X-rays are not reviewed but no one is made responsible for those "mistakes".
Banks are allowed to make loans totalling billions of dodgy loans - again no one is made accountable except the hardpressed taxpayer.
Run the film through to the other scandals : Hepatitis C scandal.
Anyone jailed for deliberately allowing the dispersal of bad blood?
Nope.
How manhy tax amnesties did we have here? Two? Three?

How many "get of jail cards" do we need to play before people are made accountable?

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

These types of problems are hardly exclusive to Eire. You cant change human nature.

Really?
What other country has managed to divine the series of scandals this country has, during the past 2 decades?

I can't think of any other country that has had a series of tax amnesties?
Can you?
And that's only one example.

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

A rise of the proletariat perhaps? Theres not much anyone can do really except try their best. What do you mean by radicalize?

Why not a proletariat uprising?
The fact of the matter is that this country rolls from scandal to scandal and yet nothing changes.
In fact, the culpable parties are emboldened to maintain the status quo.

hinault

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

I
Revolution? I lold. Mediocrity? Ive had it pretty good so far thanks.

Yeah thats right things were MUCH better when they were in charge.:rolleyes:




Hey, I'm 18 and have grown up with this Celtic tiger. The banks aren't solely to blame. People didn't have to get the bloody loans. People could have saved more. Its everyones fault. Its easy to blame faceless bankers isn't it? People lived way beyond their means.

Enough said, Dave.

Bigdeadlydave

hinault wrote: »

Enough said, Dave.

Dont be a jerk. I dont like what was implied there, just because I am 18. I live here just the same as you do and vote just like any other adult. My generation is the future of this country and if your desired revolution were to take place(it wont) the student body of the country would surely have a great part to play.

peasant

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And what is the alternative: say that we don't accept it?

't would be a start.

Say it and mean it.

patmar

One would think there are food kitchens on the corner of every street in Ireland the way so many rant and rave about our problems. Problems are there to be solved and our biggest problem is that we do not have the 100b or 200b needed to address the problems and keep everyone happy. Our ancestors paved the way for the standard of living we have today, we are doing the same thing and hopefully they will look back with thanks to us

Joey the lips

I have to say I was upset after watching primetime tonight. The health system is a disgrace. In fact disgrace is to small a word to say how I really feel. As for the victums of thylidamide(mis spell) that has to be the worst ever. The govt is really waiting for them to die.

its awful. Truly awful.

SLUSK

What did you expect? You got loads of money from the EU, instead of getting a proper infrastructure you guys went on a massive spending binge, now you have ghost estates all over the place but no proper highways like in normal countries. Electric cables are hanging all over the place instead of them being dug down into the ground, you know like in normal countries.

Ireland is broken because of your own incompetence and you should be kicked out of the EU because of your massive deficits. Then you can get back your old currency called the punt or whatever it was and hyperinflate yourselves into oblivion.

JonathanAnon

All I ask for is accountability. Nobody will be responsible for what happened here, and people were probably paid overtime to look over the results when they tried to hide the scandal once it had been noticed.. Nobody in the public sector is ever held responsible for the fact that they actually have to do their job competently..

There will be a report, the report findings will be redacted. And the country will trundle on to the next scandal in another year.

Joey the lips

SLUSK wrote: »

What did you expect? You got loads of money from the EU, instead of getting a proper infrastructure you guys went on a massive spending binge, now you have ghost estates all over the place but no proper highways like in normal countries. Electric cables are hanging all over the place instead of them being dug down into the ground, you know like in normal countries.

Ireland is broken because of your own incompetence and you should be kicked out of the EU because of your massive deficits. Then you can get back your old currency called the punt or whatever it was and hyperinflate yourselves into oblivion.

For a person that preposes many theories and ideals on boards you are showing very poor insight... If ireland had been or is kicked out of the euro and reverts to the punt. Then we would be in the unique position to have our exports controlling our borrowing. However as we were in the euro and the EU has no propper controls our slide was missed...

So really I would prepose that while I agree most spent on oblivion that the EU owe us as much support as anoyone else because we will be the longest breaking free...

I can explain the theory in detail if you wish.

freewheeler

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

I
Revolution? I lold. Mediocrity? Ive had it pretty good so far thanks.

Yeah thats right things were MUCH better when they were in charge.:rolleyes:




Hey, I'm 18 and have grown up with this Celtic tiger. The banks aren't solely to blame. People didn't have to get the bloody loans. People could have saved more. Its everyones fault. Its easy to blame faceless bankers isn't it? People lived way beyond their means.

You're not the first person to spout this nonsense..the simple fact is that this country has been RAPED by sucessive FF led governments and their cheerleaders in the construction and banking sectors. And yes they are solely to blame for the extent of the crisis, maybe if you were a bit more mature you would realise that most people have to get loans to afford to buy homes...unless i'm missing something here?

Bigdeadlydave

You're not the first person to spout this nonsense..the simple fact is that this country has been RAPED by sucessive FF led governments and their cheerleaders in the construction and banking sectors.

People really shouldn't have voted for them.

And yes they are solely to blame for the extent of the crisis,

Im no FF supporter but to blame them solely? Thats very narrow minded. We all have to take some blame, few here can say that they didn't succumb to some overindulgence during the good years too. Now atm we have people moaning about not getting loans while at the same time moaning that they were given loans when they shouldn't have been!

maybe if you were a bit more mature you would realise that most people have to get loans to afford to buy homes...unless i'm missing something here?

I can see now it was a mistake to mention my age. Apparently because I'm 18 my opinion is suddenly of little importance. From were I'm standing more "mature" people made a bloody bags of everything! People didn't have to get 100% mortgages and stuff. People didn't have to get the two cars and a holiday every year, or tvs in every room. People didn't need the piece of property abroad. People spent way too much. Now the vast majority of them are looking elsewhere for someone to blame, while a large part of the reason is reflected back to them in the mirror every morning!

freewheeler

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

People really shouldn't have voted for them.

Im no FF supporter but to blame them solely? Thats very narrow minded. We all have to take some blame, few here can say that they didn't succumb to some overindulgence during the good years too. Now atm we have people moaning about not getting loans while at the same time moaning that they were given loans when they shouldn't have been!

I can see now it was a mistake to mention my age. Apparently because I'm 18 my opinion is suddenly of little importance. From were I'm standing more "mature" people made a bloody bags of everything! People didn't have to get 100% mortgages and stuff. People didn't have to get the two cars and a holiday every year, or tvs in every room. People didn't need the piece of property abroad. People spent way too much. Now the vast majority of them are looking elsewhere for someone to blame, while a large part of the reason is reflected back to them in the mirror every morning!

Frankly you have made some ridiculous points there...surely the first job of a government is to GOVERN? We still unfortunately have a government who by the day are continuing to ruin our country, yet for some unknown reason people such as yourself actually believe their crap that WE are all somehow to blame? I work,pay an inordinate amount of tax, am i not entitled to own my own home? to have a holiday? to own a car so that i dont have to rely upon our pathetic public transport system? Have you any idea of the money this 'government' and their cronies have stolen from us all by living it up at every available opportunity? and I'M supposed to feel guilty? get real please....

thecretinhop

Good man dave... "relatively free country" i have not laughed as much in a good while, the country of Bertie, Frank Fahy, Willie O Dea... priceless

hinault

The system is broken :

Here's a quick list of politicians who were at the centre of scandals over the past 2 decades ;

Bertie Ahern, Ray Burke, Micahel Collins, John Ellis, padraic flynn, Beverley Cooper Flynn, Liam Lawlor, John O Donoghue, Willie O Dea, Michael Lowry, Charles Haughey, Paddy Donegan,.

Lets look at some of the scandals of the last 20 years :

Greencore.
Goodman.
Hepatitis C.
Magdalen Laundries.
AIB/ICI scandal.
AIB bogus non-resident accounts.
Ansbacher.
Guinness & Mahon.
Goldenbridge.
TACA.
Fr Brendan Smyth.
Passport for sale.
Fas.
Telecom.
Eircom
2 Tax Amnesties
Bugging Affair.
Rezoning scandals.
Donations scandals (donations to politicans/councillors and public officials).

KerranJast

The country is less than 100 years old. There's bound to be incompetence/corruption for a few generations as the natives get to grips with self governance.
I'm sick of all the bitching tbh. The public voted in FF in 2007 and deserves to be stuck with them until 2012. It'll serve them right for putting their greed before the good of the country.
What was the biggest issue leading up to the 2007 GE? The Health service. What did people actually vote on when they got to the ballot box? How much less tax they'd have to pay.

hinault

KerranJast wrote: »

The country is less than 100 years old. There's bound to be incompetence/corruption for a few generations as the natives get to grips with self governance.

Review the list of scandals I posted.


The system is broken mate.

KerranJast

hinault wrote: »

Review the list of scandals I posted.


The system is broken mate.

The system isn't broken. It's just reflecting the attitude of the citizenry. Ireland is too small a country for effective internal regulation to work.

southsiderosie

hinault wrote: »

Review the list of scandals I posted.


The system is broken mate.

But given that the same party has led the Irish government more than 70% of the time since the 1930s, I'd say that it doesn't seem like the voting population are particularly interested in fixing it. Older people grumble, young people emigrate, and nobody mobilizes to demand accountability from government or elected officials. Wash, rinse, repeat.

hinault

KerranJast wrote: »

The system isn't broken. It's just reflecting the attitude of the citizenry. Ireland is too small a country for effective internal regulation to work.

i would counter that with the argument that because we're a small country, regulation should easily be achievable.
Far larger countries manage to regulate their affairs more efficiently and more honestly than we do.

hinault

southsiderosie wrote: »

But given that the same party has led the Irish government more than 70% of the time since the 1930s, I'd say that it doesn't seem like the voting population are particularly interested in fixing it. Older people grumble, young people emigrate, and nobody mobilizes to demand accountability from government or elected officials. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Fair point.

We voted the politicians in to office - and look at the situation we found/find ourselves in.
And you'e correct, we do not have accountability because no one here demands accountability.

MaceFace

hinault wrote: »

Review the list of scandals I posted.


The system is broken mate.

Have you ever left Ireland?
Name me a country that we should aspire to be in terms of "not being broken".

hinault

MaceFace wrote: »

Have you ever left Ireland?

I have.

MaceFace wrote: »

Name me a country that we should aspire to be in terms of "not being broken".

There are far too many countries that I could name where the political system, the health system, the banking system, the civic systems work more efficiently and more fairly than this country.


All of which ignores the issues here, I might add.

Are you suggesting that this country is not broken?

thecretinhop

okay macface, how about this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1933144.stm

http://www.thelocal.se/5230/20061016/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6051220.stm

its called accountability in most countries, this "regime" will hang on with no shame untill they are driven out of power either by the people or more than likely by one last scandal which will tip them over.

danman

Is there a country in Europe that wasn't effected by this recession? Or any western country for that matter?

We've been effect slightly more than others because we're a small economy and we thought property prices were going to last forever.
When has any country had a property boom that didn't end in recession? Anyone?

The bitching and whining on this forum is unbelievable.


Take a look at life 10 years ago.

I live in Donegal. I work all over the country.
10 years ago, it took me 6 hours to drive from Dublin, now, 3 and 1/2 hours.

I've explained on the Mary Harney thread my feelings about people stating that our healthcare is a joke. You try loving with a chronic illness in any other country. I have, and believe me, our healthcare is way better than anywhere else in my experience.
Stop making gereralisations about our healthcare.

Is it perfect, no. But as someone said, there is no Utopia.

There has been over 60 bank bailouts in Europe since the recession started, we've had 3.

Take a look around. We're not the only country suffering from a recession.

While your looking outside bubble Ireland, have a look at other countries politions.
Are we the ONLY country that has clueless wanderers leading us?

As for the list of scandals above, I'm sure someone else on hee could do one bigger for the UK, Italy, Spain, France, etc.

As was also said, there are no soup kitchens in Ireland.
No one in this country is living under the poverty line unless it's due to their own decisions. We have one ofthe best paid socialwelfare systems in europe.

Much is made about the property developers ruining the country. Yet these same people say that we should have spent more on infrastructure. Where was this money to come from? The money gererated by the bankers and property developers? The same ones that ruined the country?

We are not in any way as bad as position that everyone tries to make out that we are.

thecretinhop

yes we should be grateful we have some meagre food, shure we should be grateful for that.. , also we should enjoy emigration, as your friend up there said, I wont comment on more, yes its more talk less action, i will get on that website, I won it on the horses.. shure a grand wee little country.. (Doffs hat to "my betters")

meditraitor

Its a small country with lots of problems but in the overall scheme of things there are only about 10 countries in the world that might be percieved as better (not in my mind though)for standard of living

hinault

MP's in many countries have the decency to resign.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1102/blunkettd.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8049614.stm

http://tvnz.co.nz/content/189610

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2857637.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/1/newsid_2513000/2513953.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/5732401/Portuguese-minister-resigns-after-making-cuckold-gesture-to-opposition-MP.html

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4265962,00.html

hinault

danman wrote: »

Is there a country in Europe that wasn't effected by this recession? Or any western country for that matter?

We've been effect slightly more than others because we're a small economy and we thought property prices were going to last forever.
When has any country had a property boom that didn't end in recession? Anyone?

The bitching and whining on this forum is unbelievable.


Take a look at life 10 years ago.

I live in Donegal. I work all over the country.
10 years ago, it took me 6 hours to drive from Dublin, now, 3 and 1/2 hours.

I've explained on the Mary Harney thread my feelings about people stating that our healthcare is a joke. You try loving with a chronic illness in any other country. I have, and believe me, our healthcare is way better than anywhere else in my experience.
Stop making gereralisations about our healthcare.

Is it perfect, no. But as someone said, there is no Utopia.

There has been over 60 bank bailouts in Europe since the recession started, we've had 3.

Take a look around. We're not the only country suffering from a recession.

While your looking outside bubble Ireland, have a look at other countries politions.
Are we the ONLY country that has clueless wanderers leading us?

As for the list of scandals above, I'm sure someone else on hee could do one bigger for the UK, Italy, Spain, France, etc.

As was also said, there are no soup kitchens in Ireland.
No one in this country is living under the poverty line unless it's due to their own decisions. We have one ofthe best paid socialwelfare systems in europe.

Much is made about the property developers ruining the country. Yet these same people say that we should have spent more on infrastructure. Where was this money to come from? The money gererated by the bankers and property developers? The same ones that ruined the country?

We are not in any way as bad as position that everyone tries to make out that we are.

You'e mistaken on a number of issues.

The Irish taxpayer has bailed out AIB three times so far (1984 ICI/AIB scheme, bank guarantee scheme Sept 2008, transfer €3b in March 2009).
That's three bail out for one bank!
Never mind the fact that AIB colluded to defraud this country of tens of millions of pounds/euro through it's non-residential accounts, it's operation of off shoring banks, it's overcharging in relation to bank charges.
One bank.

if I was to document the scandals at BOI, Anglo Irish, National Irish bank,
Guinness & Mahon and Ansbacher, we could be here all day.


Regarding scandals in other countries : I can only recall one other country where they infected their citizens like with did in the Hepatitis C scandal and that's France.

I can only recall a few other Roman Catholic countries where the same examples of paedophilia were committed.

I cannot recall any other country in which there were two tax amnesties implemented within 5 years of each other.

All of which is beside the point might I add.
Because what might be tolerated elsewhere, has no impact on what has been tolerated and condoned here.

What has been tolerated and condoned here is not acceptable.
It would not be acceptable anywhere else, I might add.

MaceFace

hinault wrote: »

I have.



There are far too many countries that I could name where the political system, the health system, the banking system, the civic systems work more efficiently and more fairly than this country.


All of which ignores the issues here, I might add.

Are you suggesting that this country is not broken?

I think it is a bit over the top to suggest the country is broken. Sure there are massive problems, but name me a single country which is immune to the problems which you claim is unique to Ireland.
Everywhere has their problems, simple as, so please which country do you hold us as a shinning light that we should aspire to be?

thecretinhop wrote: »

okay macface, how about this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1933144.stm

http://www.thelocal.se/5230/20061016/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6051220.stm

its called accountability in most countries, this "regime" will hang on with no shame untill they are driven out of power either by the people or more than likely by one last scandal which will tip them over.

You have provided examples of people who have quit office after they admitted to wrong doings.
Did we not just see that with Trevor Sargent, and even Willie O'Dea resigned after intense pressure, much like your Swedish TV license dodger.


I don't think anyone is saying that Ireland is perfect in any way, but it is a far stretch to claim that the country is broken or that we are in any way worse off than most other countries.

danman

I'm still glad I'm living in his country today.
My standard of living and that of all my friends and family are much better than 10 years ago. Even the ones that are out of work, including my brother and brother in law.

I'm not defending FF. Far from it, but Reading a title like Broken Ireland makes me wonder what country people would like us to be.

We voted in this goverment in every election for 25 years. We get what we deserve.

The 60 bailouts were for 60 banks, atleast that is what was said on radio yesterday, so trying to twist my words mean nothing.

We had a great time, now we're suffering the hangover.
Every economy in the world goes through this boom bust cycle. Unfortunatly we spent most of this countrys history in a bust, bust cycle.

Vote in a new Government in the next election but buckle down now and work our way out of this recession.
Jaysus, we love to whine..... Broken Ireland......!!!!!!

DrumSteve

broke ireland seems more apt.

also could we please keep this Tory phraseology out of this country. its depressing.you'd swear there were thousands upon thousands of feral youths raping and pillaging the country like vikings the way have the papers go on.

hinault

MaceFace wrote: »

I think it is a bit over the top to suggest the country is broken. Sure there are massive problems, but name me a single country which is immune to the problems which you claim is unique to Ireland.

Really?

What other country deliberately and willfully poisoned it's own people (Hepatitis C)?
What other country has issued tow tax amnesties to the citzenry within
5 years?
What other country colluded with a specific religious community to cover up/ignore the widespead abuse of children placed in its care ?:mad:

What country other country has had the aggregate total of scandals that his country has had over the past two decades thoughout it's political, banking and health systems?
Can you name me even one other country that has had all these scandals during a two decade time period?

MaceFace wrote: »

Everywhere has their problems, simple as, so please which country do you hold us as a shinning light that we should aspire to be?

Everywhere doesn't have the endemic lack of accountability and responsibility that this country seems to have.

And even if everywhere did have the same gombeenism that this place has, that does not justify the lack of accountabilty that there is in this country in political life, in the healthcare sector, in the religious life and in the banking/financial sector.

MaceFace wrote: »

You have provided examples of people who have quit office after they admitted to wrong doings.
Did we not just see that with Trevor Sargent, and even Willie O'Dea resigned after intense pressure, much like your Swedish TV license dodger.

Willie O Dea resigned when his lies were exposed.
How long did it take to expose him?
Why didn't he confess and resign in the first place?
Thought he might get away with it presumably.
Hoped that it might go away - the way things normally do in this country.
Try sweeping it under the carpet. eh.

Ditto O'Donogue.
Ditto Ahern/burke/haughey/lawlor/lowry/ellis........................

All goes back to a lack of accountability.

A lack of guts and honesty to stand up and say "I got it wrong, I made a mistake, I put myself at the mercy of the court/dail/electorate to decide what should be done"
That's what a leader would do, Mac.

danman

So would you prefer us to be like Britian, with their perfect systems.

Or perhaps Italy, with their parlimentarians connections to the mafia.

Or maybe the U.S. With their neoconservative warmongering governments.


Did any of you live in Ireland in the '70's and '80's?
Do you know how hard we had it then?

This thread is about a broken Ireland, it turning into a FF versus opposition savage like every other thread.

Compared to the '70's and '80's, the country was in the scrapyard, today it a comfortable country for it's citizens.

The country is ina recession, the same as every other country.
But Broken? Give me a break.
Youse don't know what it was like during a proper recession.

P. Breathnach

DrumSteve wrote: »

... you'd swear there were thousands upon thousands of feral youths raping and pillaging the country like vikings the way have the papers go on.

It can seem like that on Saturday nights.

MaceFace

hinault wrote: »

Really?

What other country deliberately and willfully poisoned it's own people (Hepatitis C)?
What other country has issued tow tax amnesties to the citzenry within
5 years?
What other country colluded with a specific religious community to cover up/ignore the widespead abuse of children placed in its care ?:mad:

What country other country has had the aggregate total of scandals that his country has had over the past two decades thoughout it's political, banking and health systems?
Can you name me even one other country that has had all these scandals during a two decade time period?







Everywhere doesn't have the endemic lack of accountability and responsibility that this country seems to have.

And even if everywhere did have the same gombeenism that this place has, that does not justify the lack of accountabilty that there is in this country in political life, in the healthcare sector, in the religious life and in the banking/financial sector.





Willie O Dea resigned when his lies were exposed.
How long did it take to expose him?
Why didn't he confess and resign in the first place?
Thought he might get away with it presumably.
Hoped that it might go away - the way things normally do in this country.
Try sweeping it under the carpet. eh.

Ditto O'Donogue.
Ditto Ahern/burke/haughey/lawlor/lowry/ellis........................

All goes back to a lack of accountability.

A lack of guts and honesty to stand up and say "I got it wrong, I made a mistake, I put myself at the mercy of the court/dail/electorate to decide what should be done"
That's what a leader would do, Mac.

Stop the ranting and discuss the points please.

As I asked two times already, which country would you hold as a shinning light?

And as for your plain ridiculous accusation that the state "deliberately and willfully poisoned it's own people". Sorry, I withdraw ridculous and replace it with stupid. Complete and utter nonsense that shows you know little about what you are actually talking about.

You want me to show you a country that is worse? Italy.
Do you know anything about Berlusconi?
Do you know that priests and Bishops from the Vatican are immune from prosecution there?

This is just a ridiculous argument.
Your problem is you are trying to assemble everything that has gone wrong in this country in the last 30 years and somehow say that we are unique. If you lived elsewhere for a while you would see that everywhere has these problems but you don't hear about it because they are domestic problems.

hinault

danman wrote: »

So would you prefer us to be like Britian, with their perfect systems.

Or perhaps Italy, with their parlimentarians connections to the mafia.

Or maybe the U.S. With their neoconservative warmongering governments.


Did any of you live in Ireland in the '70's and '80's?
Do you know how hard we had it then?

This thread is about a broken Ireland, it turning into a FF versus opposition savage like every other thread.

Compared to the '70's and '80's, the country was in the scrapyard, today it a comfortable country for it's citizens.

The country is ina recession, the same as every other country.
But Broken? Give me a break.
Youse don't know what it was like during a proper recession.

Don't pull the old soldier routine.
many of us lived through the 1970/80's in this country.

The difference this time around is that we have a contracting economy that is going down the swany, along with massive levels of fiscal and personal debt.
This was not the case in the 70/80's.

hinault

MaceFace wrote: »

Stop the ranting and discuss the points please.

As I asked two times already, which country would you hold as a shinning light?

And as for your plain ridiculous accusation that the state "deliberately and willfully poisoned it's own people". Sorry, I withdraw ridculous and replace it with stupid. Complete and utter nonsense that shows you know little about what you are actually talking about.

You want me to show you a country that is worse? Italy.
Do you know anything about Berlusconi?
Do you know that priests and Bishops from the Vatican are immune from prosecution there?

This is just a ridiculous argument.
Your problem is you are trying to assemble everything that has gone wrong in this country in the last 30 years and somehow say that we are unique. If you lived elsewhere for a while you would see that everywhere has these problems but you don't hear about it because they are domestic problems.

So attempting to equate what may, or may not, be tolerated in other countries, vindicates what is happening here?

How about you answering some questions for a change?

You're satisfied with this country?
You think the systems of this country works where 12% unemployment exists?
You think that the recommencement of emigration is a good thing?
You think that transferring billions of taxpayers money to plug a hole in the banks balance sheets is good governance?
Yout hink that the scandals at FAS, CIE, the banks etc denotes accoutability?

Noffles

The place is a broke kip... and getting broker and kip(per)...

danman

hinault wrote: »

Don't pull the old soldier routine.
many of us lived through the 1970/80's in this country.

The difference this time around is that we have a contracting economy that is going down the swany, along with massive levels of fiscal and personal debt.
This was not the case in the 70/80's.

You lived here in the 70/80's. Do you remember it being better?
Was the country any less broke than now?

The thread states that this is a broken country. When was it not broken?


I'm saying that the situation is bad, but that's only compared
to the past 10 years.

It's still 10 times better right now, than it was before
the boom.

If you think otherwise, please explain.

hinault

danman wrote: »

You lived here in the 70/80's. Do you remember it being better?
Was the country any less broke than now?

The thread states that this is a broken country. When was it not broken?


I'm saying that the situation is bad, but that's only compared
to the past 10 years.

It's still 10 times better right now, than it was before
the boom.

If you think otherwise, please explain.

I don't think the 70/80's were as bad as know.
The country is in far deeper debt now, relative to back then.

The big difference between back then and now is that back then we did not have huge levels of debt (both personal and sovereign debt).

In the 70/80's people had little or no debt, in a contracting economy.
In fact, we could not get credit.

These days, we have a contracting economy but we have huge debt.

Also back in the 1970/80s, wealth (or lack of it) was more evenly distributed.
Today, wealth distribution in this country is less equal.

Socially, there was less crime in the 1970/80's, compared to today.

DrumSteve

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It can seem like that on Saturday nights.

things are rarely as they seem.

Annasopra

hinault wrote: »

I don't think the 70/80's were as bad as know.
The country is in far deeper debt now, relative to back then.

The big difference between back then and now is that back then we did not have huge levels of debt (both personal and sovereign debt).

What are you talking about? When you refer to sovereign debt - Are you talking about national debt, When you refer to 'the country' - Are you talking about the people or the state? The National Debt in Ireland was astronomically huge at the end of the 70s/80s, There is no way that it is as bad or worse now, personal debt is probably much worse but your post was really vague?

danbohan

danman wrote: »

You lived here in the 70/80's. Do you remember it being better?
Was the country any less broke than now?

The thread states that this is a broken country. When was it not broken?


I'm saying that the situation is bad, but that's only compared
to the past 10 years.

It's still 10 times better right now, than it was before
the boom.

If you think otherwise, please explain.

no it was not better in many ways it was worse , but i built a house in 1984 and my mortgage was £15000 , i was made redundant in 1985 and went new york and i paid off my mortgage by mid 1986 , what about someone in that situation now , their mortgage is probably "E200K ++ what options have they got ?

danman

danbohan wrote: »

no it was not better in many ways it was worse , but i built a house in 1984 and my mortgage was £15000 , i was made redundant in 1985 and went new york and i paid off my mortgage by mid 1986 , what about someone in that situation now , their mortgage is probably "E200K ++ what options have they got ?

And we go full circle, back to personal responcibility.

When we talk about a Broken Ireland, should we include the madness of some peoples personal decisions.
Applying for dept that was multiples of their salary?

The banks gave it to them, but it was personal choice.

Our national dept is still not at the level it was 25-30 years ago.

So is the country more broken than then because of Personal Dept?
Dept that was a free choice by the people of this country?