Israel launches pre-emptive strike on peace talks

smithy1981

The Saint wrote: »

More unfortunate news.


Incredible

Thats terrible news. They're really backing the Palestinians into a corner here. They know well this will scupper any faint hope of talks, basicly telling the Palestinians they'll never have East Jerusalem.

"There is no doubt that the Palestinians will try to use this to either stop the upcoming indirect peace talks..."

Is he serious? Israel has stopped these talks with the announcement of the settlements. A disgrace of a country.

Ok, so with Israel stating that they'll make no more concessions, and Palestine not entering talks because of these settlements, where do they go from here???

Mr. SS

The Saint wrote: »

More unfortunate news.


Incredible

On that note, how does one even have indirect peace talks! If the leaders can't even sit at a table together how can they sell peace to their respective populations? Its self defeating imo.

Mr. SS

smurgen wrote: »

i would love to see isreal get a proper pasting by a no bull**** country like china and russia,my god their outcries for help would be deafening.

As would any countries outcries. You make that sound like people suffering is a good thing.

Off topic too.

Ping Chow Chi

Mr. SS wrote: »

On that note, how does one even have indirect peace talks! If the leaders can't even sit at a table together how can they sell peace to their respective populations? Its self defeating imo.

If one side has said in public that is not going to make any concessions, what is the point of talking? As far as Israel is concerned it's either accept what we offer or don't, hardly any need for talks then.

anymore

smurgen wrote: »

i would love to see isreal get a proper pasting by a no bull**** country like china and russia,my god their outcries for help would be deafening.

Have you heard of a country called Chechnya by any chance ? If you want to know how Russia would deal with Plaestine if it were on her borders, then read a little if Chechyna's history over the last 25 years.

The Saint

Mr. SS wrote: »

On that note, how does one even have indirect peace talks! If the leaders can't even sit at a table together how can they sell peace to their respective populations? Its self defeating imo.

Shuttle diplomacy at the beginning of peace negotiations is not an uncommon phenomenon.

Archie D Bunker

The Saint wrote: »

Shuttle diplomacy at the beginning of peace negotiations is not an uncommon phenomenon.

The only problem is that peace negotiations in one form or another have been going on for the past 20 years or so. Shuttle diplomacy in this case is taking a few steps backwards.

JustinDee

smurgen wrote: »

i would love to see isreal get a proper pasting by a no bull**** country like china and russia,my god their outcries for help would be deafening.

The USSR already have played their part in mucking about in the Middle East in case you've forgotten 1967 already.

The Saint

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

The only problem is that peace negotiations in one form or another have been going on for the past 20 years or so. Shuttle diplomacy in this case is taking a few steps backwards.

Well there's been no negotiations for over a year so I guess something is better than nothing. Direct negotiations would come a lot quicker if Israel started acting in good faith.

anymore

smurgen wrote: »

i would love to see isreal get a proper pasting by a no bull**** country like china and russia,my god their outcries for help would be deafening.

So on May 14, 1947, the Soviet ambassador Andrei Gromyko announced:
"As we know, the aspirations of a considerable part of the Jewish people are linked with the problem of Palestine and of its future administration. This fact scarcely requires proof... During the last war, the Jewish people underwent exceptional sorrow and suffering... The United Nations cannot and must not regard this situation with indifference, since this would be incompatible with the high principles proclaimed in its Charter... The fact that no Western European State has been able to ensure the defence of the elementary rights of the Jewish people and to safeguard it against the violence of the fascist executioners explains the aspirations of the Jews to establish their own State. It would be unjust not to take this into consideration and to deny the right of the Jewish people to realize this aspiration "The USSR was one the first countries to recognise the new State of Israel after the US.

anymore

meditraitor wrote: »

But that doesnt help the millions of people living in the biggest open air prison on the planet....... they are not all terrorists and should not be treated as such

Yes of course they are not al terrorists and that is why we should protest as loudly at the fact that HAMAS combed the streets of Gaza and slaughtered Palestinians who were opponents, (shot them down in cold blood.) as loudly as when Isreal kills someone. Except that doesnt happen does it ? See no evil, hear no evil....

meditraitor

anymore wrote: »

Yes of course they are not al terrorists and that is why we should protest as loudly at the fact that HAMAS combed the streets of Gaza and slaughtered Palestinians who were opponents, (shot them down in cold blood.) as loudly as when Isreal kills someone. Except that doesnt happen does it ? See no evil, hear no evil....

In europe there is a law, basically its holocaust denial. Good law and fit for purpose.

Now I would like to see another law,basically it called Isreali fanboys. The same punishment should be meted out to people who continually apologise for isreals actions as the people who deny the holocaust. Both are equally repulsive. You repulse me.

Mark

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Yes of course they are not al terrorists and that is why we should protest as loudly at the fact that HAMAS combed the streets of Gaza and slaughtered Palestinians who were opponents, (shot them down in cold blood.) as loudly as when Isreal kills someone. Except that doesnt happen does it ? See no evil, hear no evil....

Many here, including myself, have repeatedly condemned Hamas' activities. However, there is one crucial difference. Hamas (but more correct to say the people of Gaza) have had punative measures placed on them by the international community for their actions. The same is not the case for Israel.

BlaasForRafa

JustinDee wrote: »

The USSR already have played their part in mucking about in the Middle East in case you've forgotten 1967 already.

and 1973

BlaasForRafa

meditraitor wrote: »

In europe there is a law, basically its holocaust denial. Good law and fit for purpose.

Now I would like to see another law,basically it called Isreali fanboys. The same punishment should be meted out to people who continually apologise for isreals actions as the people who deny the holocaust. Both are equally repulsive. You repulse me.

Mark

ah go boil yer head.

In case you have forgotten there is freedom of speech here unlike Iran, the palestinians best buddies. It wouldn't be a great idea to wear a "Go Fatah!" t-shirt in the Gaza Strip either.

anymore

meditraitor wrote: »

In europe there is a law, basically its holocaust denial. Good law and fit for purpose.

Now I would like to see another law,basically it called Isreali fanboys. The same punishment should be meted out to people who continually apologise for isreals actions as the people who deny the holocaust. Both are equally repulsive. You repulse me.

Mark

And jsut how does this relate to my post ?

anymore

The Saint wrote: »

Many here, including myself, have repeatedly condemned Hamas' activities. However, there is one crucial difference. Hamas (but more correct to say the people of Gaza) have had punative measures placed on them by the international community for their actions. The same is not the case for Israel.

Democracy died in Gaza when Hamas started killing its politicial opponents. Hamas is now a terrorist organisation - there will be no more ' fair elections' in Gaza.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJCGqQrxCaA

I dont defend Israels illegal killings of civilians. I do recognise that Hamas has created the conditions in Israeli politics where the the hard line parties and politicians have gained the balance of power which has amongst other things led to the recent military actions in Gaza.
Isreali politics is highly fractured and the moderate parties and politicians have been sidelined because of Hamas's year's long campaign of launching of rockets against civilian targets.
Those who support Hamas also support Israel's hardliners.
As you sew, so shall you reap.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Democracy (.....) you reap.

And why did Hamas move against Fatah like that?

The Bush administration, caught out by the rise of Hamas, embarked on a secret project for the armed overthrow of the Islamist government in Gaza, it emerged yesterday.
Vanity Fair reports in its April edition that President George Bush and the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, signed off on a plan for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to remove the Hamas authorities in Gaza. The plan called for Washington's allies in the region to funnel arms and salaries to Fatah fighters who would lead a rising against Hamas.
But the project was controversial even within the administration, the magazine reports. "There were severe fissures among neoconservatives over this," David Wurmser, a former Middle East adviser to the vice-president, Dick Cheney, told the magazine. "We were ripping each other to pieces."
Wurmser resigned his post in the vice-president's office in July 2007, only weeks after bloody clashes in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah that led to the Islamist organisation taking total control of the territory. "It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen," he said.

According to the magazine, Rice played a main role in trying to persuade Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates to offer training and funding to the Fatah fighters. Israeli officials admitted in December 2006 that Egypt had sent weapons to the Fatah faction in Gaza.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/04/usa.israelandthepalestinians

Abbas was also miffed at the public discussion in the U.S. of Bush Administration plans to secure $86 million from U.S. Congress to arm forces loyal to Abbas for a looming battle with Hamas. According to one insider, Abbas had wanted this kept secret. "This has put us in more trouble with Hamas," griped one Abbas aide. After Rice and her phalanx of bodyguards and advisers left Abbas's office in Ramallah, one Palestinian source close to the Palestinian president reported gloomily that "She didn't bring anything new." He added: "The American 'Road Map' is a dead body, and implementing the plan will enable Israelis to swallow more of the West Bank." The reasoning, say Abbas supporters, is that Abbas cannot comply with Rice's demands that he disarm Hamas militants, and Abbas's failure to do this will embolden the Israelis to erect more Jewish settlements inside the Palestinian territories. "What she's asking — this is a joke," said one Abbas aide.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html

anymore

It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,"
Wonderful ,the old pre-emptive strike attack - Hitler of course made a pre-emptive attack on Russia beacuse he was afraid of a pre-emptive attack by Russia ...etc, etc.

The pertinent point of course is that Hamas hunted down unarmed palestinians, dragged them into the streets, laid down on the ground and murdered them.

Ask yourself the question one online poster asked " If this is what Hamas will do to their fellow Palestinians, then what will they do to the people they regard as their enemies ? "

On a much less serious point, but one that is indicative of the Hamas mindset, papers have reported that Hamas have issued an edict forbidding male hairdressers from cutting women's hair. Perhaps this is also some kind of pre -emptive strike !
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?251800-Hamas-Bans-Men-From-Women-s-Hair-Salons

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

It looks (........) by Russia ...etc, etc.

You seem to have ignored the public funding of Fatah by the US, with Egyptian and Israeli co-operation, to carry out that end. Instead you've rushed by and thrown in a Godwin and a "Look - they're MAD ISLAMISTS" for good measure.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

You seem to have ignored the public funding of Fatah by the US, with Egyptian and Israeli co-operation, to carry out that end. Instead you've rushed by and thrown in a Godwin and a "Look - they're MAD ISLAMISTS" for good measure.

Well they ARE mad islamists.

Also so what if Fatah got funding from the states, they got funding before since the Oslo accords, thats hardly news. Hamas have been getting funding from those other mad islamists in the Iranian regime for donkeys years.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Well they ARE mad islamists. .

Well. thats the faction thats gained dominance since their isolation. After their election there was a far less strident tone from them. The more cut off they became, the more the extreme element took to the fore. Its almost a replay of the Palestinian experience in microcosm.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Also so what if Fatah got funding from the states, they got funding before since the Oslo accords, thats hardly news. Hamas have been getting funding from those other mad islamists in the Iranian regime for donkeys years.

Lets reiterate. Fatah was being channelled funds, arms and ammunition for the specific purpose of overthrowing Hamas, because elements of the then US government disagreed with the election results. This is a matter of public record. While this doesn't excuse the rather savage persecution that followed, it does put rather a different light on why they moved against Fatah.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Well. thats the faction thats gained dominance since their isolation. After their election there was a far less strident tone from them. The more cut off they became, the more the extreme element took to the fore. Its almost a replay of the Palestinian experience in microcosm.



Lets reiterate. Fatah was being channelled funds, arms and ammunition for the specific purpose of overthrowing Hamas, because elements of the then US government disagreed with the election results. This is a matter of public record. While this doesn't excuse the rather savage persecution that followed, it does put rather a different light on why they moved against Fatah.

For how many years ahs Hamas been launching rockets at Israel with the specific intention of slaughtering as many men, women and children as they can ?
.I note that it is you who has used the expression " they're MAD ISLAMISTS" -
Who am I do disagree with you ?
Are you saying that Egypt and the US are culpable in the slaugher of unarmed Palestinians by Hamas ?

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Lets reiterate. Fatah was being channelled funds, arms and ammunition for the specific purpose of overthrowing Hamas, because elements of the then US government disagreed with the election results. This is a matter of public record. While this doesn't excuse the rather savage persecution that followed, it does put rather a different light on why they moved against Fatah.

True enough, but as the anti-israeli posters always say "two wrongs don't make a right". They moved on the Gaza based Fatah supporters with extreme savagery in a "night of the long knives" style attack.

Once netanyahu was elected it was obvious how things were going to go and I don't know why anyone else thought it might play out differently. Hamas wanted Livni and Olmert out of the Israeli government as they know that Netanyahu's attitudes and actions will never get a good press, especially in the western media. Also I think that Hamas just prefer the predictability of bibi and the fact that they know that no negotiated settlement is possible with him in charge.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

For how many years ahs Hamas been launching rockets at Israel with the specific intention of slaughtering as many men, women and children as they can ?
.I note that it is you who has used the expression " they're MAD ISLAMISTS" -
Who am I do disagree with you ?
Are you saying that Egypt and the US are culpable in the slaugher of unarmed Palestinians by Hamas ?

I'm saying that by encouraging, funding and putting pressure on Fatah to act against Hamas, they bear responsibility for the Hamas coup against Fatah.

blassforrafaa wrote:

True enough, but as the anti-israeli posters always say "two wrongs don't make a right". They moved on the Gaza based Fatah supporters with extreme savagery in a "night of the long knives" style attack.

I already stated that there was no excuse for what followed.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

I'm saying that by encouraging, funding and putting pressure on Fatah to act against Hamas, they bear responsibility for the Hamas coup against Fatah.



I already stated that there was no excuse for what followed.

Is it surprising that both the US and Egypt would encourage action to stop a terrorist organisation whose campaign of murder against innocent civilians was destabilising the region ?

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Is it surprising that both the US and Egypt would encourage action to stop a terrorist organisation whose campaign of murder against innocent civilians was destabilising the region ?

Again you're evading the point.

Here's another point you can try to ignore - Abbas had only one potential opponent in his election that might have defeated him- Marhan Barghouti. The Americans told him that if he ran against Abbas and won, they'd isolate him and the Palestinian people more thoroughly than they had Arafat. As a result, Abbas won, and disaffection with this and his corrupt old guard led to a victory for Hamas.

Interfering, leading to disaster, leading to more interfering.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Is it surprising that both the US and Egypt would encourage action to stop a terrorist organisation whose campaign of murder against innocent civilians was destabilising the region ?

Well, if they were really bothered about that, they would be targetting the Israeli government also, well known for murdering innocent civilians and destabilising the region....

wes

Obama aide condemns 'destructive' Israeli homes plan

Israel's announcement of plans to build 1,600 homes for Jews in East Jerusalem was "destructive" to peace efforts, a top aide to Barack Obama says.

David Axelrod said the move, which overshadowed a visit to Israel by US Vice-President Joe Biden, was also an "insult" to the United States.

Israel's prime minister has tried to play down the unusually bitter diplomatic row between the two allies.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton last week issued her own stern rebuke.

Mrs Clinton told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by telephone on Friday that the Israeli move was "deeply negative" for US-Israeli relations.

Click here for full article

Looks like the US government is actually a little bit annoyed with Israel for once. Of course what is reallly need is some genuine measures to reign in Israel constant theft of Palestinian land. After all, the expansion of colonies are not helpful for either israel or Palestine. So far the US words will achieve nothing, and they will need to do a a lot more than that.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Well, if they were really bothered about that, they would be targetting the Israeli government also, well known for murdering innocent civilians and destabilising the region....

The last time Egypt targetted Israel, they got their asses kicked.

The Saint

Another provocation and violation of international law in East Jerusalem.

Justice Ministry: Israel can sell confiscated East Jerusalem land
The recent reform of the Israel Lands Administration allowing sale of leased land to private companies or individuals includes confiscated land in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, says the Justice Ministry.

The statement was issued last week in response to an official request for clarification from Adalah, Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel.

Hila Gilad Tenne, director of the ministry's human rights and international organizations department, wrote to the organization that Israel has the right to exercise its sovereignity over territories under jurisdiction, jurisprudence and administration. She noted that the amendment to the lands law passed in August 2009 was based on extensive consideration by a number of relevant authorities.

Adalah wrote to the ministry that selling assets in occupied territories constitutes, in fact, a complete and final confiscation from their original owners.

Full Story

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The last time Egypt targetted Israel, they got their asses kicked.

Well, we are talking about the Egypt and the US, and Israel needs the US's support, so you know if the US and Egypt were really bothered about people killing civilians and destabilising the Middle East, then they would do something about Israel as well, but you know as per usual you would rather ignore the point being made.

Now what interesting is that Israel is really going out of its way to piss of there benefactor:

US steps up pressure on Israel

Personally, I have no idea why Israel wants to piss off the US. The US has supported them to the hilt and they are treating the US pretty harshly.

**EDIT**
Just to add, it isn't just the extremist far right parties who support colonization, but even Israels Labour party, one of the so called "moderate" parties:

Even Labor ministers oppose halting east Jerusalem building

By GIL HOFFMAN
14/03/2010
Likud cancels central committee meeting on unfreezing settlement construction.

Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu received backing from his ministers and the parties in his coalition Sunday as he faced a deepening crisis in Israel’s relations with the American administration.

While officials in Washington were quoted as saying that Netanyahu would have to choose between his ties with US President Barack Obama’s government and his coalition partners, ministers and MKs took steps to ensure that he would not have to make such a difficult choice.

Despite American pressure, not one of the 30 ministers in Netanyahu’s cabinet has expressed support for freezing construction over the pre-1967 border in Jerusalem. A check among the five Labor ministers found that they were all in favor of continuing to build in neighborhoods like Ramat Shlomo and Gilo, where the American administration opposes building.

“The consensus in Israel supports continuing to build in Jerusalem and that’s not going to change,” a Labor minister said.

Click here for full story

**END EDIT**

anymore

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The last time Egypt targetted Israel, they got their asses kicked.

Whch raises the awkward question of how it came about that Israel occuPied the West Bank and Gaza ?

wes

anymore wrote: »

Whch raises the awkward question of how it came about that Israel occuPied the West Bank and Gaza ?

Well, we could also ask the awkward question as to why there are so many Palestinian refugee's as well. There really is no point in banging on about the past in the context of this thread, as Israel won't come out looking good if thats what your thinking, all that will happen is that the thread will go the way of all I/P threads, so lets not drag this one in that direction?

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Whch raises the awkward question of how it came about that Israel occuPied the West Bank and Gaza ?

Rather irrelevant, as aqquisition of territory by force has been outlawed since WWII. While one might make a tenous argument for a military presence until an agreement was reached, none can be made for one which exists to promote and protect the colonisation of the area by Israeli civillians.

paulaa

Bibi has angered the US and EU with his recent statements. Is this the final nail in the coffin of "peace" in the Middle East ?

The Israeli apologists can no longer say " Israel has no partner for peace." and blame the Palestinians, when it is becoming more and more obvious that this far-right Israeli government have no intention of ever allowing a Palestinian state.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday said that Israel would continue to build in Jerusalem in the same way that it has over the last 42 years.

"The building in Jerusalem and in all other places will continue in the same way that has been customary over the last 42 years," said Netanyahu during a Likud party meeting.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1156570.html

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Rather irrelevant, as aqquisition of territory by force has been outlawed since WWII. While one might make a tenous argument for a military presence until an agreement was reached, none can be made for one which exists to promote and protect the colonisation of the area by Israeli civillians.

A state of war effectively exists between Hamas and Fatah, so perhaps Israel should be allowed retain stewardship for the time being !
Any opinions on the continuing occupation of Tibet by China ?

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

A state of war effectively exists between Hamas and Fatah, so perhaps Israel should be allowed retain stewardship for the time being !
Any opinions on the continuing occupation of Tibet by China ?

I don't see how this post is relevant to anything tbh. Fatah is in power in the West Bank. Also, I don't see how Israeli 'stewardship' justifies building settlements in the West Bank and Eeast Jerusalem.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

A state of war effectively exists between Hamas and Fatah, so perhaps Israel should be allowed retain stewardship for the time being !

emmm, as pointed out earlier, they are colonising the area, not 'stewarding' it.

FlutterinBantam

anymore wrote: »

A state of war effectively exists between Hamas and Fatah, so perhaps Israel should be allowed retain stewardship for the time being !
Any opinions on the continuing occupation of Tibet by China ?

:eek: Jaysus don't start them on that.

We have Georgia/ East Timor/ and the Caprivi Strip to sort out out before that.

The Saint

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

:eek: Jaysus don't start them on that.

We have Georgia/ East Timor/ and the Caprivi Strip to sort out out before that.

Fancy that, off topic again. Care to participate on the subject at hand?

anymore

The Saint wrote: »

Fancy that, off topic again. Care to participate on the subject at hand?

Yes lets re -focus - how many people have read the Hamas Charter ? - we might as well see exactly what we are dealing with here. It has the adavtange over Mein Kampf that it is short and to the point !

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Yes lets re -focus - how many people have read the Hamas Charter ? - we might as well see exactly what we are dealing with here. It has the adavtange over Mein Kampf that it is short and to the point !

Wow, what an irrelevant and frankly idiotic post.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Yes lets re -focus - how many people have read the Hamas Charter ? - we might as well see exactly what we are dealing with here. It has the adavtange over Mein Kampf that it is short and to the point !

Last time I checked Hamas was not controlling the West Bank, and seeing as this thread is specifcally about what happening in the West Bank and not Gaza, and I will quote the first post in the thread to illistrate the point:

The Saint wrote: »

I know what you're probably thinking "Oh no, not another Israel/Palestine thread", but I think this story is important and instructive. I also hope that the thread will stay on topic and not veer off into ancient history, Gaza and Hamas. This is about events and chances for peace in the West Bank.

So once again a off topic post.

So, back on topic then:

US-Israel relations: White House 'will not shy away' from pushing for talks


United States determined to persuade Israel into substantive peace talks with Palestinians, Obama administration source says

President Barack Obama and the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, are on a collision course today in a row described by a senior Israeli diplomat as the worst crisis between the two countries for more than three decades.

An Obama administration source told the Guardian that the White House and US state department are intent on pushing Israel into substantive peace talks with the Palestinians and will not shy away this time as they did when the last effort ended in embarrassing failure in September.

Click here for full article

Very interesting development if true. Has Israel gone to far in pissing off its biggest benefactor and best friend they have? I am not too sure, but Israel is certainly playing a strange game, where they seem to have given up even having the appearence of wanting peace, and basically pissing off there best friend.

I have no idea what Netanyahu is playing at, but it certainly can't be good for anyone involved.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Yes lets re -focus - how many people have read the Hamas Charter ? - we might as well see exactly what we are dealing with here. It has the adavtange over Mein Kampf that it is short and to the point !

If you can explain to me how that relates to Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, I may indulge you.

anymore

So is Palestine now officially a two state country, like west and east germany of old, with events in one sector not being in any way connected or relevant to the other sector ?
And just how is the Hamas Charter . irrelevant ? Is it not a statement of intent in relation to Israel ?

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

So is Palestine now officially a two state country, like west and east germany of old, with events in one sector not being in any way connected or relevant to the other sector ?
And just how is the Hamas Charter . irrelevant ? Is it not a statement of intent in relation to Israel ?

Currently the West Bank and politically and geographically isolated from each other. Hamas isn't in power in the West Bank and there is no talk of Israel dealing with them. What we are talking about is the peace process as it relates to the West Bank.

wes

And George Mitchell has now postponed his visit to Israel, which shows how dead a resumption of peace talks are right now, sadly:

US envoy George Mitchell postpones Israel visit

US envoy George Mitchell has postponed a visit to Israel amid a continuing row over Israel's decision to build more Jewish homes in Arab East Jerusalem.

Mr Mitchell had been due to meet President Shimon Peres on Tuesday but the US said he would not be in Israel.

The building announcement - made as US Vice-President Joe Biden visited last week to try to kick-start stalled peace talks - angered Washington.

Tension remains high in Jerusalem, with a number of clashes on Tuesday.

Click here for full article

There are also more clashed in East Jerusalem due to Israel planned land theft there. The constant colonization, cleary does not enhace Israel security, but rather exacerbates the conflict, which is one that is primarily over land. So the esclation of clashes and tensions in East Jerusalem is no surprise, in light of Israel aggression via colonialism.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

If you can explain to me how that relates to Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, I may indulge you.

"

Hamas's 1988 charter calls for replacing the State of Israel with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip "

If i was Israeli, the Charter would definitely influence my thinking on whether it was wise to hand over any more land to Palestine.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

So is Palestine now officially a two state country, like west and east germany of old, with events in one sector not being in any way connected or relevant to the other sector ??

You're trying to demonise Hamas using their somewhat dubious charter. Yet the area Israel is expanding in is (under Israeli sufferance) run by Fatah, who have reigned in their "militants". Therefore, it's rather hard to see how you're going to attempt to use itto justify Israeli actions, like the continued building of settlements. And thats before anyone points out the colonisation of the OT started many years before the foundation of Hamas.

Of course the cynic in me suggests that you've no intention or interest in relating one to the other, but are actually attempting to scream "LOOKIT EVIL HAMAS" in the vain hope it will distract from the subject at hand.