cats v's wildlife

wildlifeboy

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked and in turn being responsible for a huge ammount of song bird fatalities? Does that bell really work? Can a cat learn to move stealthily enough to supress the tone? what do cat lovers think? are cats the killers that we are told they are? do you keep your cat indoors? Discuss...

seamus

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed. They will kill for sport from time to time (to keep their hunting skills sharp), but a cat which is well fed will rarely come home with a dead bird. This isn't some "balance of nature" thing, it's an evolutionary response. There's little logic in expending your energy to capture something which won't be used as food.

Bells generally work, though most cat owners will tell you that a cat will go through many bells in their lifetime, so it's when the cat has managed to lose all their bells that they'll inevitably come home with a "present".

wildlifeboy

seamus wrote: »

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed. They will kill for sport from time to time (to keep their hunting skills sharp),

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

seamus

wildlifeboy wrote: »

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

They will kill, but not nearly as often.

peasant

wildlifeboy wrote: »

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

Depends one the cat
In our case one out of three well fed cats go hunting, two out of three don't.

You can significantly lower the "success rate" of the cat though. Cats' hunting techniques are at their most sucessful around dusk or dawn. Keep them in during those hours (and at night)

stevoman

the same debate was wrangled on nature and bird watching recently

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055846638

IvySlayer

I remember when my cat brought home robin she hunted. She was so proud.

HermitHorace

Our cat has happily landed a number of dead animals on our doorstep, before and after her dinner.

She's always quite pleased with herself.

GigaByte

One of my cats has only managed to catch 2 birds in 3 years and the other one has never managed to catch any, yet.

It's funny watching her try!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

seamus wrote: »

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed.

I couldn't stop laughing when I read that someone actually believes this. You are serious, aren't you?

Cats will kill birds and small mammals if well fed or not. FACT.
Study after study has shown the drastic predation from domestic Cats. And we are talking about pets here not feral cats.

Please do not judge the impact your cat has on the number of "presents" brought to you over the years. Cats that have access to birds or that are allowed to roam unchecked, will and do kill wildlife.

seamus

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

I couldn't stop laughing when I read that someone actually believes this. You are serious, aren't you?

Cats will kill birds and small mammals if well fed or not. FACT.

I didn't say that they wouldn't.

An individual cat will not spend vast amounts of its time chasing birds and vermin if it has a full belly and a place to sleep. Obviously it will on occasion, but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

I never made any comment as to the impact of domestic cats on local bird populations. While one well fed cat may not have any significant impact on a local bird population, 50 well fed cats crammed into half a square kilometre will have a serious impact because they will still occassionally hunt.

There's also the problem of part-time owners - people who throw their cat out in the morning, feed it one pouch of whiskas when they get home at night and then throw it out again before they go to bed. A cat has no idea about how much it should eat and if it's hungry or bored it will go off and find something to kill.

I imagine the impact on bird populations could be drastically reduced if people were legally required to take their cats indoors after lighting-up time.

planetX

Afraid cats hunt for pleasure, some more than others. And living where I do I'm bloody glad they do - mine can catch a mouse within 5 min of being let out. They catch rats too. Unfortunately the odd bird too. But cats are predators, birds are prey - it pretty much evens out here in the countryside where all the natural predators have been eliminated, and there isn't a huge concentration of cats. I can see that it would be more devastating on bird populations in built up areas. I feel a lot worse about the birds I've hit while driving

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

seamus wrote: »

...but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

Not obvious at all. Whether or not the Cat is well fed does not take from the massive amount of deaths they are responsible for. The killing for food V sport angle does not hold up in fact, be it obvious to you or not.

While one well fed cat may not have any significant impact on a local bird population

Oh! but it will if it's allowed roam.

I imagine the impact on bird populations could be drastically reduced if people were legally required to take their cats indoors after lighting-up time.

Certainly would have a dramtic affect and would be a very good start. I'd still put a condition though that Cats, just like Dogs, are not permitted to roam freely.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Cats, just like Dogs, are not permitted to roam freely.

No chance!

Since I got a cat, bird **** on my car has dropped dramatically.

PaulB91

seamus wrote: »

An individual cat will not spend vast amounts of its time chasing birds and vermin if it has a full belly and a place to sleep. Obviously it will on occasion, but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

surely a well fed/rested cat will have more energy to hunt than a half starved stray?

if you compare them with wild cats e.g. Lions, Leopards etc - they hunter better when they have plenty of food

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

No chance!

Since I got a cat, bird **** on my car has dropped dramatically.

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

star-pants

Just pointing out there is a 'report post' function if you've an issue with a post

seamus

PaulB91 wrote: »

surely a well fed/rested cat will have more energy to hunt than a half starved stray?

if you compare them with wild cats e.g. Lions, Leopards etc - they hunter better when they have plenty of food

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

Oh my god! You are a very very grumpy person

Anyway I'd rather have cats keeping the rat and mice population down and if birds get in the way, tough. You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

PaulB91

GigaByte wrote: »

Oh my god! You are a very very grumpy person

Anyway I'd rather have cats keeping the rat and mice population down and if birds get in the way, tough. You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

GigaByte

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

Its most likely you did but didn't even notice... I've been driving for about the same time as you and I've never had a car crash but crashes happen every day. Alan Stacey was kill at Belgain F1 Grand Prix when he was hit in the face by a bird!!!

Indy Car + bird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T565zcSdAzE

I have hit 2 birds in the past when they have flown out from a ditch and under the car, I'm sure most drivers will have at some point just missed a bird like that, its the ones you don't see that get killed.

PaulB91

i'm pretty certain i would notice a bird hitting my car and would confidently say i never have - mind you i don't do F1 very often anymore - oh i never crashed my car either

planetX

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

Depends on the environment. Here the roads are lined with tall hedges and birds tend to launch out into the road, so bird strikes are all too common. Sad.

GigaByte

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm pretty certain i would notice a bird hitting my car and would confidently say i never have - mind you i don't do F1 very often anymore - oh i never crashed my car either

Lets hope it stays that way then. Another one you probably will be surprised about is that the biggest killer of birds is in fact the glass window! :eek: They think it could be responsible for up to a billion bird deaths a year!!!

PaulB91

now that one i have no problem with - must have seen about a dozen birds kill themselves flying into glass windows

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

Now you have really lost the plot. I actually spend my life working with and protecting Nature/Wildlife. It's my job. I certainly have not killed anything like the number of birds in my lifetime that the average Domestic Cat does every year.
Your Research? What research? I have studied 7 major international reports on the subject involving hundreds of manyears of research and taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject. So, I doubt very much if your research is accurate at all.
It is sheer fallacy to state that birds are under no threat from house cats. I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat. But the evidence still shows that even Cats kept indoors for 20 hours per day kill birds and small mammals. This killing is not a natural thing. The level of predation does impact on local populations and bells etc do not work.
Sorry for keeping on about this matter but dis-information such as yours above does nothing for either side of the argument/discussion and prevents people getting a true picture.

Orla K

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked

Why should a cat owner justify letting their cats outside? It's been discussed here a number of other times, not so much focusing solely on the songbird element (but hunting does be mentioned) Most responsible owners know the pros and cons of the inside/outside debate and make a choice that they see as best.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Orla K wrote: »

...make a choice that they see as best.

I accept that. I accept that this debate raises it's head a few times a year and that nobody on either side will change their opinions as a result of anything anybody says. I accept that the whole debate is futile and that I, you, and all the other posters are wasting our time with it. I also accept that everybody is entitled to their opinion and has the right to express it. But I still feel compelled to ask: how does the choice of Cat owners "as they see it" provide any comfort or relevance to the subject?
With that I bow out of this thread as the repetition, both from other threads and within the thread, have rendered it rather useless to proceed.:P

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Now you have really lost the plot. I actually spend my life working with and protecting Nature/Wildlife. It's my job. I certainly have not killed anything like the number of birds in my lifetime that the average Domestic Cat does every year.
Your Research? What research? I have studied 7 major international reports on the subject involving hundreds of manyears of research and taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject. So, I doubt very much if your research is accurate at all.
It is sheer fallacy to state that birds are under no threat from house cats. I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat. But the evidence still shows that even Cats kept indoors for 20 hours per day kill birds and small mammals. This killing is not a natural thing. The level of predation does impact on local populations and bells etc do not work.
Sorry for keeping on about this matter but dis-information such as yours above does nothing for either side of the argument/discussion and prevents people getting a true picture.

You don't need to be einstein to know that cats kill birds. Simply put cats will always kill birds and you haven't even done any research from what you've said above, you've just read some one else's reports! There's just enough reports that rubbish your reports etc.. You'd be better of researching the number of birds killed by man made problems. Look whats happening to the Golden eagles.

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote:

I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat.

A housecat is a domestic cat, you say you've done research and you don't even know this? Of course you're going to assume that I'm reffering to an indoorcat. So this proves any of your research (if you ever do any) is going to be full of assumptions and guesstimations. :pac:

seamus

GigaByte wrote: »

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

What's so silly about it? I know plenty of people who keep cats entirely indoors with no ill-effects. Is it silly to expect people to keep their dogs on their property?

In fact the life expectancy of an indoor cat is up to 6 times that of an outdoor cat, proving that not only does the cat not suffer, it in fact goes on to live a longer life.

planetX

Life expectancy of a caged songbird would probably be higher too