cats v's wildlife

Magenta

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

And you are just plain rude.

annefitzy

I am slave to Jasper, Angie and Chosy all three are indoor cats, I have jasper since he was a few days old he was found on the side of the road with the rest of his litter and dead mother, Angie came to me at 4days old with her mother who rejected her at 1day old in the vets ahe was born by c section, Chosy was part of a tnr she got trapped Nutered and ended up staying she was about 5-6mths when she first came here, All 3 off theses cats are indoor cats and are healthy and happy given the chance I think Angie would be the braver one to venture outside and would bring back a bird, Chosy is an ex stray and hides when the door is open...but saying all that I was over run with mice not long ago and every morning I woke up to a present on my pillow yuck.....my cats are better fed than me , a cat will hunt for the fun of it not for the food
My youngest is three and that is Jasper and he is huge

Graces7

Sorry Seamus but I have to disagree with you.

I hand raised a cat years back. And watched the Jekyll and Hyde appear. He would change from a baby to a killer in seconds. Just could not help it; fought it to please momma but lost every time.

It was fascinating to watch. Sometimes he would shake his head to try to get rid of these dreadful thoughts..

It is hard wired in them; nothing to do with hunger or need.

he caught bird after bird and I spent much energy chasing him when he shot past with a bird in his mouth. Many times I saved it.

But you will also only see a part of the prey a cat catches. Mine no longer bring prey in as they get told off.

But that is nature and there is no way I would stop cats going out.

seamus wrote: »

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

Graces7

In my experience of breeding and keeping cats for over three decades, the reverse has been true.

The cats I have let out live longer and are happier and healthier than those I kept indoors.


In fact the life expectancy of an indoor cat is up to 6 times that of an outdoor cat, proving that not only does the cat not suffer, it in fact goes on to live a longer life.[/QUOTE]

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I had promised myself that I was out of this discussion, as it is going the way of many similar threads here over the years. However, I can't let some of your comments go unanswered.

GigaByte wrote: »

... and you haven't even done any research from what you've said above, you've just read some one else's reports!

What part of "taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject." gives you that impression? These were major research projects and I didn't include local projects over my 30+ in the job.

There's just enough reports that rubbish your reports etc.. You'd be better of researching the number of birds killed by man made problems. Look whats happening to the Golden eagles.

Oh where to begin! I have 8 detailled research reports sitting on my desk right now. 7 are convinced of the huge negative impact Cats have on bird populations and 1 feels the level of predation is not quite as bad although accepts the limitation of the scope of the particular study. These reports come from BTO, RSPB, IWC, NUIG, UCC and others. Care to enlighten us as to the names, or bodies behind, your contradicting research?
Of course man is to blame for many Wildlife losses and I don't dispute that but it's not the matter under discussion here. Two wrongs and all that!
The poisoning of the Golden Eagles and other raptors (which I am actively involved in investigation) is disgusting for sure but there is actaully a greater long term risk to our natural environmment from the Millions of birds and small mammals killed annually by Cats.

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

Firstly, I didn't say that cats should be locked in at all and secondly I'm not "coming from" anywhere. I just stated the evidence to hand.

A housecat is a domestic cat, you say you've done research and you don't even know this?

Let's be clear on this. A house Cat is of course a Domestic Cat but Domestic Cats are not all House Cats.

Of course you're going to assume that I'm reffering to an indoorcat. So this proves any of your research (if you ever do any) is going to be full of assumptions and guesstimations.

I don't assume anything. It's a fatal error when dealing with people or wildlife. No properly conducted research or study will make assumptions above any hypothesis found to be sound by previous testing or study.

All I want from this discussion is that facts and reason are used.

seamus

planetX wrote: »

Life expectancy of a caged songbird would probably be higher too

And so too the life expectancy of a cat kept in a box. But that's not the same thing as keeping a cat indoors.

Graces7 wrote: »

In my experience of breeding and keeping cats for over three decades, the reverse has been true.

The cats I have let out live longer and are happier and healthier than those I kept indoors.

Your experience then is at odds with the statistics; It doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, it means that you've either been lucky or there are other mitigating factors.
For example, you let some cats out and not others. Why? Do you keep the sicker and weaker cats locked in? Well then of course they're going to die earlier and live a less happier existence.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

These reports come from BTO, RSPB, IWC, NUIG, UCC and others.

Again anything in any of those reports is just a guess at best, you can't deny that. Here's a laughable figure for you:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Cats, both feral and housecats, also take their toll on birds. A Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) report states that, "recent research suggests that rural free-ranging domestic cats in Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year."[/FONT]

Very acurate figures indeed, apply that same formula to the figure in those reports you have sitting on your desk and print them up.

You're living in cloud cuckoo if you think cats are birds biggest threat! Making cats the scapegoat for bird loss is simplistic and naïve. Humans (that includes you) are the main cause of environmental destruction and the ensuing effect on wildlife, not cats. Species loss occurs for many reasons, the decline of hedgerows, climate change, modern building techniques, development of land for housing and commercial purposes and intensive agricultural practices, to name but a few. People, not cats, are responsible for this negative state of affairs.

When you walk around Dublin city the reason there's no birds there is from all the cats wandering up and down hunting them, cats the biggest threat. :rolleyes:

"The blue tit, the second most common garden bird killed by cats, is actually increasing in number across the UK."

Just going through the figures on a uk mammal site where a survey was carried out over 5 months on over 950 cats. It works out on average a cat brought home 1 bird a month

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

Again anything in any of those reports is just a guess at best, you can't deny that. Here's a laughable figure for you:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Cats, both feral and housecats, also take their toll on birds. A Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) report states that... may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year."[/FONT]

Very acurate figures indeed, apply that same formula to the figure in those reports you have sitting on your desk and print them up.

You're living in cloud cuckoo if you think cats are birds biggest threat! Making cats the scapegoat for bird loss is simplistic and naïve.

Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? :mad:And, did you not read what I posted at all? There are no guesses in proper scientific research. How many times do I have to spell it out.
Did I mention any US based reports? No! I don't speak for any of those papers. I never claimed any total number of losses due to Cat predation - did I? In the UK rather surprisingly, the only annually repeated estimate of the total number of birds predated by cats came from the Cats Protection League's helpline, which continually suggests a figure of 55 million per annum.

If you want hard numbers from proper research then here:
Of a sample of 696 individual cats, 634 (91%) brought home at least one item and the back-transformed mean number of items brought home by was 11.3 (95% CI 10.4-12.2). The back-transformed means and number of cats retrieving at least one item from each prey group were: 8.1 (7.4-8.9) mammals for 547 (79%) cats, 4.1 (3.8-4.5) birds for 506 (73%) cats, 2.6 (1.8-2.7) herpetofauna for 145 (21%) cats and 2.2 (1.8-2.7) other items for 98 (14%) cats.

See why I made no numeric claims in replying to you? Because it's not simple and you'd only twist it to a claim of "guesses".

Hard numbers again: In a Mammal Society survey into the predation habits of nearly 1,000 cats between the 1st of April and the 31st August, in which those taking part were everyday cat owners, the sample accounted for over 14,000 'kills', made up of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, although 66 cats killed nothing at all. No account was taken of injuries.

Did I anywhere state that Cats were the biggest threat to Birds? No, I most certainly did not. So please stop putting words in my mouth and making bogus claims against what I have said. It's all here in print. Come on show me! I said Cats kill birds. Fact. I said Cats were a threat to Bird populations. Fact. I never said they were the biggest threat. I never used Cats as a scapegoat as you put it. I simply advised the facts as laid down.
Please get it right if you are going to attack me personally.

BTW: You haven't named the research documents disporving Cat predation, as requested. Any chance of seeing them as I am genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge on this subject.

CJhaughey

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? :mad:And, did you not read what I posted at all? There are no guesses in proper scientific research. How many times do I have to spell it out.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Did I mention any US based reports? No! I don't speak for any of those papers. I never claimed any total number of losses due to Cat predation - did I? In the UK rather surprisingly, the only annually repeated estimate of the total number of birds predated by cats came from the Cats Protection League's helpline, which continually suggests a figure of 55 million per annum.

Which is about 1 bird every 2 month per cat which has no impact in the total bird population.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

If you want hard numbers from proper research then here:
Of a sample of 696 individual cats, 634 (91%) brought home at least one item and the back-transformed mean number of items brought home by was 11.3 (95% CI 10.4-12.2). The back-transformed means and number of cats retrieving at least one item from each prey group were: 8.1 (7.4-8.9) mammals for 547 (79%) cats, 4.1 (3.8-4.5) birds for 506 (73%) cats, 2.6 (1.8-2.7) herpetofauna for 145 (21%) cats and 2.2 (1.8-2.7) other items for 98 (14%) cats.

See why I made no numeric claims in replying to you? Because it's not simple and you'd only twist it to a claim of "guesses".

Hard numbers again: In a Mammal Society survey into the predation habits of nearly 1,000 cats between the 1st of April and the 31st August, in which those taking part were everyday cat owners, the sample accounted for over 14,000 'kills', made up of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, although 66 cats killed nothing at all. No account was taken of injuries.

Did I anywhere state that Cats were the biggest threat to Birds? No, I most certainly did not. So please stop putting words in my mouth and making bogus claims against what I have said. It's all here in print. Come on show me! I said Cats kill birds. Fact. I said Cats were a threat to Bird populations. Fact. I never said they were the biggest threat. I never used Cats as a scapegoat as you put it. I simply advised the facts as laid down.
Please get it right if you are going to attack me personally.

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

BTW: You haven't named the research documents disporving Cat predation, as requested. Any chance of seeing them as I am genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge on this subject.

This is what you do and you haven't found one article??? :eek: Thats shocking!! Here's one from the Songbird Survival website of all places

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/predators/domestic-and-feral-cats/

annefitzy

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

And people that kill and boast about the deed belong in prison no if no buts

Graces7

Small point as I missed your wording.

We don't have to "justify" any decision we make to anyone.

Interesting your choice of words indeed...:rolleyes:.

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked and in turn being responsible for a huge ammount of song bird fatalities? Does that bell really work? Can a cat learn to move stealthily enough to supress the tone? what do cat lovers think? are cats the killers that we are told they are? do you keep your cat indoors? Discuss...

kylith

GigaByte wrote: »

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

So... extrapolating from those figures if there are 100 cats in an area they'll kill about 100 birds a month. 1000 cats = 1000 birds. I cant' find numbers for Ireland, but according to a 2008 pet food manufacturer's survery there are about 7.2 million cats in the UK, meaning 7.2 million birds killed per month.

That doesn't exactly sound like little to no impact on the bird population.

Graces7

Yes it is.
the same I mean..


"

seamus wrote: »

And so too the life expectancy of a cat kept in a box. But that's not the same thing as keeping a cat indoors.

Your experience then is at odds with the statistics; It doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, it means that you've either been lucky or there are other mitigating factors."

Not at all in any way. Statistics can be manipulated to mean anything the statistician seeks to "prove" .. old saying, "d****** lies and statistics.."

"For example, you let some cats out and not others. Why? Do you keep the sicker and weaker cats locked in? "

Certainly not and what do you mean by "sicker and weaker cats?"
Nothing an elderly cat likes better than a walk outside.

We keep friends, not prisoners.

"Well then of course they're going to die earlier and live a less happier existence.

"

Sigh.... Twisting everything is not a convincing way to argue.

And a cat that has and has had a healthy outdoor life can shake off illness better than an indoor cat often. That has always been my experience also.

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

This whole post is fiction and bears little relation to reality.

morganafay

I can't stand when people say cats are destroying wildlife. They do hunt, but they don't catch THAT much! Some cats hunt more than others but I have 5, and only two of them hunt, and they only catch maybe one mouse or small bird a month that I see, maybe a few more that they eat in the fields. When I had mother cats they used to catch rats and crows more often, and bring them back for the kittens, but that was only for a few weeks, and then they got spayed.

And anyway, it's NATURE! They aren't being evil, they're just hunting. I usually don't get annoyed, but this topic annoys me! They're probably killing off the week or sick ones anyway, and they need exercise too and to practise their natural behaviours, i.e. hunting. Alot of people are happy for cats to kill rats, but don't like them to kill small birds, but what's the difference really? And anyway, cat food has meat in it, and how is that less cruel than the cat killing wildlife?

And I understand that people in towns and cities would want to keep their cats in, but if you live somewhere fairly safe then why not let your cats outside. Some cats prefer to live indoors, others like to go out for part of the day, some hate going indoors (2 of mine won't come in, the 2 that hunt actually). I had one indoor cat when I lived in Dublin and he was so bored! He was really hyper and when I brought him home to the countryside he would sit on the windowsill all day looking out, until eventually I let him live outdoors and he was so so much happier and calmer. On the other hand, I have one cat who loves being inside and will spend about 20 hours inside, but then asks to be let out for a few hours. It's not cruel to let cats outside, and it's healthier for them in general (I know they can catch diseases/get hurt/get poisoned, I just mean a healthier environment). They might die younger, but their lives will be better in general (more natural, more interesting, more exercise, more stimulation) for most cats.

Like if people want to keep them in then they'll probably be fine, but most of them would be happier having the choice (at least in the countryside where it's safe). If I lived in the middle of a town or city, I'd have mine indoors only, but I live on the edge of a town and they don't go on the road and they are all vaccinated and there's no real problem.

Graces7

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

This is sheerly irresponsible violence.

They did a cull of feral cats on Tory Island. To protect the corncrake. They said. First they checked all the pets etc and made sure they all had collars so that no one' s pet got put down.

Even if it chanced to be roaming.

Drawing parallels clearly would be useless with you.

Shoot first always?

Dreadful person.

Hellrazer

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

Id prefer if comments like that were kept for the shooting forum.However I`ll allow it since its relevant to the topic ie that cats do kill wildlife and can be quite destructive to native animals.

The rules are that the discussion of vermin is allowed and in your opinion cats can be classed as vermin.In my opinion they arent unless feral.

Hellrazer

annefitzy wrote: »

And people that kill and boast about the deed belong in prison no if no buts

No need for comments like that.See my previous post.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

Which is about 1 bird every 2 month per cat which has no impact in the total bird population.

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

There's little point continuing this nonsensical to-ing and fro-ing. However, you are saying that irrespective of the number of prey items per Cat the loss to non-wildlife predation of 55million birds in Britain alone is acceptable? Enough said. There is clearly little more to discuss.

This is what you do and you haven't found one article???

Let's again be clear on a few points which you seem determined to ignore. This is part of what I do. I'm sitting beside a bog measuring water levels right now and then heading to the shore to count waders. Care to find anything wrong with that? Am I doing it to your required standards?
Also we were talking about the research you could quote. This is an internet article, tantamount to a newpaper report. Anyway, this article supports the numbers of birds lost to Cats each year and it's impact on wildlife. I did tell you I had one proper research document this morning which dispelled some of the theory on predation but you chose to ignore this.
The body of SCIENTIFIC evidence points to Cats killing many millions of birds and that losss having an impact on overall numbers. A portion of this statement at least, you by your owm comments agree with.

Anyway, no point in us continuing with the personal dislike you have obviously taken of me so I'll drop out of this and just correspond with the other contributors. No offence but I have no desire to waste wattless energy on this with you.

Hellrazer

Graces7 wrote: »

This is sheerly irresponsible violence.

They did a cull of feral cats on Tory Island. To protect the corncrake. They said. First they checked all the pets etc and made sure they all had collars so that no one' s pet got put down.

Even if it chanced to be roaming.

Drawing parallels clearly would be useless with you.

Shoot first always?

Dreadful person.

Likewise.Personal attacks are against the rules.

Attack the post and not the poster are the rules of boards.ie.

annefitzy

Hellrazer wrote: »

Id prefer if comments like that were kept for the shooting forum.However I`ll allow it since its relevant to the topic ie that cats do kill wildlife and can be quite destructive to native animals.

The rules are that the discussion of vermin is allowed and in your opinion cats can be classed as vermin.In my opinion they arent unless feral.

And what is a Feral Cat? it was once a domestic cat Ireland does not have true ferals they are mans creation and as usual humans clear up there mess by killing off what the created:eek:

doctor evil

Gigabyte would you not agree that there are too many cats per square kilometre? You wouldn't find this concentration if they were all living in the wild and had predators after them. Well fed cats that are vaccinated etc are in tip top condition to hunt through out the year.

It reeks of double standards that people think its ok for cats to roam and not dogs.

Are cats not held in the same regard?

If a cat is kept in you are protecting it from being; run down/shot/poisoned/feline HIV/feline flue/general wackos.

Cats if from kittenhood can be taught to wear a harness. Enclosures that connect to an open window can be constructed in gardens if you want a cat to be able to go out but not roam. Sometimes whole gardens can be cat proofed to prevent escape (like adequate fencing keeping a dog in. There are many products on the market.

The countryside comes with its own dangers.

Rats have colonised urban areas a lot more successfully than songbirds. There is a saying that you are only a few feet away from a rat. Rats will breed faster than songbirds and carry more disease.

Cats hunt by stalking up close, it is what they are built for. I don't think they are built for long chases.

morganafay

I don't think dogs should roam because they could be dangerous, also in my opinion it is more dangerous for dogs to roam because I think cats are often smarter and will get into less trouble. And dogs will usually go up to people, cats will usually stay away from people, and so they won't usually get stolen, or annoy people, or pass diseases onto people, like dogs might. Also, dogs can have big gardens, it's hard to keep cats in gardens, unless you have a huge run or something. And it's very hard to get a cat to walk properly on a lead, they'll just stroll around, going in whatever direction they want, not getting proper exercise, usually.

doctor evil

annefitzy wrote: »

And what is a Feral Cat? it was once a domestic cat Ireland does not have true ferals they are mans creation and as usual humans clear up there mess by killing off what the created:eek:

I'm pretty sure Ireland does have true ferals, sometimes people mistake strays for ferals. True ferals tend to be smaller than a pet cat and you certainly wont spot one casually.

Of course cats are mans creation, look at all the different breeds! With live stock comes dead stock it is all part of animal husbandry. I'd prefer a cat to be shot than to die from slowly from malnutrition due to bad teeth or to die from feline HIV/flu.

morganafay

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

Some of those cats were probably pets that were well loved, and there are people now worrying about them, crying for them? Maybe a little child owned one, how could you not feel sorry for them? I hope you're happy that you made people sad.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't know how someone could do that, knowing it would hurt people.

Also, I could well be wrong, but I thought it was illegal to kill a cat unless you're a vet or have a license to? I thought it was different to wildlife.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

annefitzy wrote: »

And what is a Feral Cat? it was once a domestic cat Ireland does not have true ferals

I think you may have mistaken the meaning of feral. It applies to any animal or bird:
a. Existing in a wild or untamed state.
b. Having returned to an untamed state from domestication.

Ireland most certainaly has feral Cats. No Wild Cats but Feral Cats.

morganafay

doctor evil wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Ireland does have true ferals, sometimes people mistake strays for ferals. True ferals tend to be smaller than a pet cat and you certainly wont spot one casually.

Hmm, I don't think Ireland has wild cats. Ferals are domestic cats, that have gone stray or the descendants of stray cats.

doctor evil

morganafay wrote: »

I don't think dogs should roam because they could be dangerous, also in my opinion it is more dangerous for dogs to roam because I think cats are often smarter and will get into less trouble. And dogs will usually go up to people, cats will usually stay away from people, and so they won't usually get stolen, or annoy people, or pass diseases onto people, like dogs might. Also, dogs can have big gardens, it's hard to keep cats in gardens, unless you have a huge run or something. And it's very hard to get a cat to walk properly on a lead, they'll just stroll around, going in whatever direction they want, not getting proper exercise, usually.

Cats can also be dangerous, diseases can be caught from their faeces (which most cats bury but not all). Cats don't have any better road sense than dogs!

Do you think its fair that a cat can potentially go into someones garden/land and kill their hens/koi/get into avaries/others. Let alone piss people who are already not fond of cats. By letting cats roam you are leaving them open to these unnecessary risks.

For proper hard core excerise all you need is a piece of string!

Nothing wrong with a stroll at times.

annefitzy

morganafay wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Ireland has wild cats. Ferals are domestic cats, that have gone stray or the descendants of stray cats.

Thanks morganafay you said what I was trying to say