cats v's wildlife

doctor evil

morganafay wrote: »

Hmm, I don't think Ireland has wild cats. Ferals are domestic cats, that have gone stray or the descendants of stray cats.

Check out post 58. Ireland does not have wild cats, but Scotland does and they only have 400 left. Feline HIV/flu spread by domestic or feral cats would be one of the threats along with interbreeding.

http://www.scottishwildcats.co.uk/

Graces7

Hellrazer wrote: »

Id prefer if comments like that were kept for the shooting forum.However I`ll allow it since its relevant to the topic ie that cats do kill wildlife and can be quite destructive to native animals.

The rules are that the discussion of vermin is allowed and in your opinion cats can be classed as vermin.In my opinion they arent unless feral.

That is an intensely biassed view as the poster made it clear that he makes no attempt to differentiate between pets and ferals. And that refusal to differentiate is fact is not opinion.

CJhaughey

morganafay wrote: »

Some of those cats were probably pets that were well loved, and there are people now worrying about them, crying for them? Maybe a little child owned one, how could you not feel sorry for them? I hope you're happy that you made people sad.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't know how someone could do that, knowing it would hurt people.

Also, I could well be wrong, but I thought it was illegal to kill a cat unless you're a vet or have a license to? I thought it was different to wildlife.

I am not going out to kill cats every day of the week.
I don't enjoy it and I could certainly think of better ways to use ammunition than on cats. BUT if those people really cared about their animals they would be kept inside or around their house, not letting them wander onto my property and kill birdlife that I and my Kids enjoy watching.
My kids get much more enjoyment from watching wild birds than a stray cat.
Cats are treated just the same as any other vermin, ie foxes,rabbits or rats.
I don't see that responsible cat owners should let their cats roam freely, killing all the other wildlife around the place, shrews, birds, lizards etc, if every single cat owners cat killed only a few prey items a week thats still a huge amount of wildlife killed nationally just so a cat can roam.
Is that fair or just?

ancapailldorcha

How could you be angry with this precious wee thing?

doctor evil

Graces7 wrote: »

That is an intensely biassed view as the poster made it clear that he makes no attempt to differentiate between pets and ferals. And that refusal to differentiate is fact is not opinion.

If a dog comes onto someone elses land it can be shot regardless of whether or not it is a stray. Why is that different for a cat?

ancapailldorcha

Sorry about the image size. Not used to this stuff...

Graces7

Likewise? meaning?

Hellrazer wrote: »

Likewise.Personal attacks are against the rules.

Attack the post and not the poster are the rules of boards.ie.

Graces7

doctor evil wrote: »

If a dog comes onto someone elses land it can be shot regardless of whether or not it is a stray. Why is that different for a cat?

Not in law it cannot.

It has to be seen to be attacking eg sheep before it can legally be shot.

And it is of course different because dogs can run amok and kill sheep; there was a thread on the farming forum last week re that.

doctor evil

seamus wrote: »

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

That is what I have experienced as well. I doubt a true feral will go for a piece of string the same way my boy does.

morganafay

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am not going out to kill cats every day of the week.
I don't enjoy it and I could certainly think of better ways to use ammunition than on cats. BUT if those people really cared about their animals they would be kept inside or around their house, not letting them wander onto my property and kill birdlife that I and my Kids enjoy watching.
My kids get much more enjoyment from watching wild birds than a stray cat.
Cats are treated just the same as any other vermin, ie foxes,rabbits or rats.
I don't see that responsible cat owners should let their cats roam freely, killing all the other wildlife around the place, shrews, birds, lizards etc, if every single cat owners cat killed only a few prey items a week thats still a huge amount of wildlife killed nationally just so a cat can roam.
Is that fair or just?

I do understand your point, that you don't want wildlife to be killed. Sorry I was kinda judgemental in that post. I didn't really mean to be, it just kinda annoyed me.

I don't really agree though, I think it's natural that cats kill wildlife and I don't mind it. And see I don't really agree with killing vermin, foxes, rabbits or rats, either, so that's why I don't agree with killing cats.

I just don't think most cats kill a few animals a week, some don't hunt at all, some might kill a few a week, but I'd say most kill maybe one every month or two. That's just judging from my cats, we live in the countryside and they don't kill much. And I think they're only able to catch the slow ones, that are sick maybe, so in my opinion, it's just natural selection.

I think that more wildlife is killed by humans, directly and indirectly, than by cats anyday.

Graces7

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am not going out to kill cats every day of the week.
I don't enjoy it and I could certainly think of better ways to use ammunition than on cats. BUT if those people really cared about their animals they would be kept inside or around their house, not letting them wander onto my property and kill birdlife that I and my Kids enjoy watching.
My kids get much more enjoyment from watching wild birds than a stray cat.
Cats are treated just the same as any other vermin, ie foxes,rabbits or rats.
I don't see that responsible cat owners should let their cats roam freely, killing all the other wildlife around the place, shrews, birds, lizards etc, if every single cat owners cat killed only a few prey items a week thats still a huge amount of wildlife killed nationally just so a cat can roam.
Is that fair or just?

Your post is gross exaggeration of course. And cats are not vermin.
They keep barns vermin free

The reason that there is a problem with cat overpopulation in Ireland is that they have been treated as vermin; ie not neutered and not cared for in any way.

Many of us are working to "trap, neuter, release."

The cat who is out seeking food may well also have kittens to feed in summer.

This needs more thought than a happy trigger

doctor evil

Graces7 wrote: »

Not in law it cannot.

It has to be seen to be attacking eg sheep before it can legally be shot.

And it is of course different because dogs can run amok and kill sheep; there was a thread on the farming forum last week re that.

Suspected of/about to/attacks before is good enough for most gardai. Very difficult to prove otherwise. The person who does the shooting must report the shot within 48 hours to the Gárda Síochána

Life stock can include poultry and fish farming.

morganafay

And also I don't see why birds deserve to live more than foxes, rabbits, rats or cats.

It's far enought to want to protect the natural environment and balance of nature, but killing vermin is still destroying nature. People should just leave nature alone, it knows what it's doing. I really don't think cats do that much harm to nature, especially compared to things like cars!

I see alot more dead wild animals on the road than in my back garden being eaten by cats . . .

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

morganafay wrote: »

I can't stand when people say cats are destroying wildlife. They do hunt, but they don't catch THAT much! Some cats hunt more than others but I have 5, and only two of them hunt, and they only catch maybe one mouse or small bird a month that I see, maybe a few more that they eat in the fields. When I had mother cats they used to catch rats and crows more often, and bring them back for the kittens, but that was only for a few weeks, and then they got spayed.

And anyway, it's NATURE! They aren't being evil, they're just hunting...

Where to begin without repeating the points made month after month on this issue? Yes, Cats kill wildlife and that killing is destroying it year after year. You can't deny this anymore than you can deny helicentric theory.

They don't catch THAT much? Multiply the number of birds killed (use you own admitted kill rates) by the number of Cats killing and you'll have to admit we are into the Millions.

As for it's Nature. It most certainly is in the nature of cats to hunt and kill but their impact on Irish wildlife is not natural. They are not a natural predator here and they don't just kill to eat. Their numbers are much higher than a natural environment will sustain because we look after them.

Yes just hunting. Yes killing birds. Yes having an impact on bird populations.

morganafay

And I think that by now feral cats should have the same position as wildlife, and be protected.

CJhaughey

Graces7 wrote: »

Your post is gross exaggeration of course. And cats are not vermin.
They keep barns vermin free

The reason that there is a problem with cat overpopulation in Ireland is that they have been treated as vermin; ie not neutered and not cared for in any way.

Many of us are working to "trap, neuter, release."

The cat who is out seeking food may well also have kittens to feed in summer.

This needs more thought than a happy trigger

Read my post I am not trigger happy I can think of better ways to spend my time than killing cats.
I am glad that you are TNR'ing, but I know of no-one down here that does that, and even if I did go and buy a live trap and catch these cats who is going to work on them? The local vet?
The bird the cat just killed also may have some young chicks that will starve in due course, is it any different?
I don't anthromorphisise animals, I just treat them as animals and with care and respect.
If I was a heartless bastard I would probably put out poison but I hate poison as it's effects are so indiscriminate to other wildlife.
Shooting is fast and humane done properly, no risk to other animals.

morganafay

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Where to begin without repeating the points made month after month on this issue? Yes, Cats kill wildlife and that killing is destroying it year after year. You can't deny this anymore than you can deny helicentric theory.

They don't catch THAT much? Multiply the number of birds killed (use you own admitted kill rates) by the number of Cats killing and you'll have to admit we are into the Millions.

As for it's Nature. It most certainly is in the nature of cats to hunt and kill but their impact on Irish wildlife is not natural. They are not a natural predator here and they don't just kill to eat. Their numbers are much higher than a natural environment will sustain because we look after them.

Yes just hunting. Yes killing birds. Yes having an impact on bird populations.

In understand your points, and that's fair enough. I just don't mind personally if my cats kill birds.

Like it's upsetting the balance of nature or whatever, but that's changing all the time anyway. Species become instinct, new ones come into existence all the time. Maybe in 1000 years things will be totally different, but I don't think it matters that much, it's just what happens.

Like if 1000 tigers die today, I don't think it's worse than 1000 cows. It would be a shame is all. I think it's a shame that cats kill birds, but it happens.

And cats kill rats, people kill rats, that's destroying the wild population of rats, why does nobody care about the rats?

doctor evil

morganafay wrote: »

And also I don't see why birds deserve to live more than foxes, rabbits, rats or cats.

It's far enought to want to protect the natural environment and balance of nature, but killing vermin is still destroying nature. People should just leave nature alone, it knows what it's doing.

Which birds? Some are vermin that are caught in Larsen traps and the like.

BullFinches can strip an apple of its buds, no buds no fruit.

Nature doesn't know what it is doing when man has intentionally/unintentionally introduced invasive species of animals and plants. These cannot be left alone.

Japanese knotweed/zebra muscles etc

morganafay

CJhaughey wrote: »

Read my post I am not trigger happy I can think of better ways to spend my time than killing cats.
I am glad that you are TNR'ing, but I know of no-one down here that does that, and even if I did go and buy a live trap and catch these cats who is going to work on them? The local vet?
The bird the cat just killed also may have some young chicks that will starve in due course, is it any different?
I don't anthromorphisise animals, I just treat them as animals and with care and respect.
If I was a heartless bastard I would probably put out poison but I hate poison as it's effects are so indiscriminate to other wildlife.
Shooting is fast and humane done properly, no risk to other animals.

I can see that you are not just going out shooting for fun, but I don't really think it should be your decision which animals live or die. That's just my opinion like, I know it won't change your mind, just that's why I disagreed.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

morganafay wrote: »

And I think that by now feral cats should have the same position as wildlife, and be protected.

Basis for this contention? Protected? Not all wildlife is protected. Alien species such as Rabbits are not protected nor is the Gray Squirrel.

morganafay

doctor evil wrote: »

Which birds? Some are vermin that are caught in Larsen traps and the like.

BullFinches can strip an apple of its buds, no buds no fruit.

Nature doesn't know what it is doing when man has intentionally/unintentionally introduced invasive species of animals and plants. These cannot be left alone.

Japanese knotweed/zebra muscles etc

I just think that all birds deserve to live as much as each other, I don't care if it's a crow or a robin or what. I think that nature will eventually balance itself out and we should try to leave it alone as much as possible, like in that episode of Futurama where they tried to help nature and made it worse . . .

but seriously, everyone will have their own opinion, I just personally am going to let my cats roam and don't mind if they kill things, and at the same time, I'm not going to kill anything.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

morganafay wrote: »

Species become instinct, new ones come into existence all the time. Maybe in 1000 years things will be totally different, but I don't think it matters that much, it's just what happens.

Like if 1000 tigers die today, I don't think it's worse than 1000 cows.

Is this what we are reduced to? What new species have come into existance in the last 12 months? We can start listing those that have disappeared in that time but new one? What planet are we on?

1000 Cows are of equal value to our natural world as 1000 Tigers? The risk of a ban from the Mods prevents me saying what needs to be said to that comment.:mad:

I now dispair for the future of this country in so many ways.

annefitzy

These two kittens one day old were rescued with there mom late last night they are now warm and safe... there mom will be felv/fiv tested - spayed and vaccinated - wormed and flea treated before rehoming and the same for the kittens.. thankfully some people in Ireland do care about the plight of all animals and cared enough to call us....this little family is safe xx

morganafay

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Basis for this contention? Protected? Not all wildlife is protected. Alien species such as Rabbits are not protected nor is the Gray Squirrel.

Ok, in a perfect world, I wish all wildlife would be protected, including feral cats, and that nature would just find a balance. Maybe that could never be possible, but I wish it was.

Also I feel sorry for the grey squirrel, everyone hates it and likes the red squirrel, but it's just minding its own business doing squirrel things, and it doesn't know the effect it's having on the red squirrel, so it's just innocent really. People make them sound evil sometimes.

doctor evil

morganafay wrote: »

Like if 1000 tigers die today, I don't think it's worse than 1000 cows. It would be a shame is all. I think it's a shame that cats kill birds, but it happens.

And cats kill rats, people kill rats, that's destroying the wild population of rats, why does nobody care about the rats?

Big difference if 1000 tigers were to die! Tigers are endangered. Cows are not although there are rare breeds of cattle.

Both cats/rats can be vermin. Rats are very intelligent and affectionate, there are people who keep them as pets. But they can carry a lot of disease.

It is a shame when birds are hunted by cats but these numbers can be minimised.

morganafay

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Is this what we are reduced to? What new species have come into existance in the last 12 months? We can start listing those that have disappeared in that time but new one? What planet are we on?

1000 Cows are of equal value to our natural world as 1000 Tigers? The risk of a ban from the Mods prevents me saying what needs to be said to that comment.:mad:

I now dispair for the future of this country in so many ways.

I thought that new species come into existence that scientists haven't discovered in the amazon and stuff? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was true.

I think a cow is equal to a tiger. And a feral cat = human = rat = bird . . . or I should say, should be equal to.

Kess73

planetX wrote: »

Life expectancy of a caged songbird would probably be higher too

Actually it would not be. A wild adult songbird captured and put into a cage as an adult stands a very strong chance of dying from stress within a short period.


Songbirds bred in captivity would be expected to outlive many of their wild conterparts, but a captured adult songbird would struggle with it's enforced enviroment.

morganafay

doctor evil wrote: »

Big difference if 1000 tigers were to die! Tigers are endangered. Cows are not although there are rare breeds of cattle.

Both cats/rats can be vermin. Rats are very intelligent and affectionate, there are people who keep them as pets. But they can carry a lot of disease.

It is a shame when birds are hunted by cats but these numbers can be minimised.

It's a shame if animals become extinct but it's still an animal dying, whatever species it is.

Magenta

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

CJhaughey wrote: »

I am not going out to kill cats every day of the week.
I don't enjoy it and I could certainly think of better ways to use ammunition than on cats.
Cats are treated just the same as any other vermin, ie foxes,rabbits or rats.

Can I ask why you have the gun in the first place?

doctor evil

Natue cannot balance itself with all the damage done by man. To state this is either lazy or naive.

Man introduced the grey squirrel to the detriment of the native red, man must be the one to rectify this mistake.