Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

purplepanda

http://www.wexford.ie/wex/Departments/Planning/DevelopmentPlans/CountyDevelopmentPlan2007-2013/Title,5369,en.html

Population data linked above although I'm not sure where I read the change in TD's at the moment;)

Judgement Day

Judgement Day wrote: »

Labour TD Joe Costello is the new party spokesman on Transport and I've just dashed him off an email asking him if Labour are going to give a commitment to the future of the railway in their next election manifesto - I'll post the reply here, if and when, I receive one.

I'm sure that he would like lots more Boardsies to get in touch with him and you can reach him here: joe.costello@oireachtas.ie

13 days to go and this is the latest from Labour today:


Dear David,

Thank you for your email. I have just been appointed Transport spokesman
for the Labour Party today.
I have to brief myself on the issues before I make any decisions. I will
study the Warterford/Rosslare Railway closure very carefully.

Regards,

Joe Costello

Hungerford

foggy_lad wrote: »

but really expecting any more than a couple of trains a day from this area is ridiculous as the numbers have never and will never justify even a single railcar. i would think that a connection between leterkenny and sligo or cross border to mullingar would be far more important than a centuries old obsolete line servicing an obsolete port where foot passengers are a thing of the distant past!

I'm starting to suspect that you are Barry Kenny. Anyway, just a couple of points:

* The line was originally built to link the South-East with the South-West of the country. The idea was that people should be able to travel from Waterford/Rosslare to Cork by rail without going via Dublin.

* The population of the stretch of the line between Rosslare and Waterford isn't massive but it's essentially a captive audience. The rail link is an hour quicker than the road and they have no other public transport options since CIE removed their bus service last year.

* If CIE put on a realistic service, the estimated demand based on their own figures would be roughly equal to the Western Rail Corridor. The main obstacle to this is the fact that it isn't in the Wesht. :eek:

* If you want to connect Letterkenny with the rest of the state by rail, I suspect that connecting the town to Derry and then rebuilding the old GNR Derry Road would be a quicker and more benefical option.

purplepanda

Hungerford wrote: »

* If CIE put on a realistic service, the estimated demand based on their own figures would be roughly equal to the Western Rail Corridor. The main obstacle to this is the fact that it isn't in the Wesht. :eek:

That's what this vindictive policy of closure of Rosslare - Waterford is all about, what a disgraceful way to run transport planing & policy in 21st century Ireland:mad:

Judgement Day

Bored? Looking for some light relief well there's is always Irish Rail's mind numbing Facebook page here: http://www.facebook.com/iarnrodeireann - I have been amusing myself with posts about the South Wexford line - a bit OTT but who gives a **** anymore! Only nine days left but rumour has it that closure may in fact be deferred for a another couple of days after the 21st.

Judgement Day

Irish Rail Revenue Protection Unit take down a persistent fare dodger on the South Wexford line. Well with closure now all but signed, sealed and delivered there's little else to be done but laugh. By the way the Save the Waterford/Rosslare Railway Facebook group now have T-shirts see here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=367387502018&v=wall

lord lucan

Judgement Day wrote: »

By the way the Save the Waterford/Rosslare Railway Facebook group now have T-shirts see here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=367387502018&v=wall

I wonder if they have them with just the 071 loco on the front?:pac:

Judgement Day

A statement from two local FF TDs - at last - note the heavy input from John Browne! :rolleyes:

http://www.wexfordfiannafail.ie/index.php/2010/07/09/connick-and-browne-hold-meeting-with-national-agency-on-future-of-rosslare-waterford-line/


Wexford Minister of State Sean Connick TD and John Browne TD have held a meeting with the National Transport Authority to discuss the future of the Rosslare-Waterford Railway Line. Minister Connick and Deputy Browne met with the Chief Executive of the Authority, Mr. Gerry Murphy, last week and put forward the case for retention of services on this line.
According to Minister Connick “This meeting with the National Transport Authority is part of the on-going work to try to retain a rail service between South Wexford and Waterford City. We put forward a very strong case for the retention of this line and told them that this move was very short-sighted. We asked the National Transport Authority to consider alternative services on the line, including using a timetable that meets the needs of commuters, to gauge the true demand for services on the Rosslare-Waterford line. There is concern that a decision on the future of the Rosslare-Waterford railway line was taken on the basis of its current usage alone, rather than on the basis of its potential if it was properly marketed and timetabled.

Even though services on this line are coming to an end for the moment, work continues at a national level to find a solution that will allow this railway line to reopen. As a former Chairman of South East on Track, I have been a lobbyist for improved railway services for over a decade and have been passionate about railway travel. I want to see this railway line achieve its true potential rather than being wound down”

Judgement Day

A rumour on IRN last night suggests that the closure may be deferred until September which is the word that I've heard on the ground too. Pic of the 'Save the Rosslare Railway' T-shirt coming shortly.



Yuk, but in a good cause! Would have preferred an A-class.

Stonewolf

Judgement Day wrote: »

A rumour on IRN last night suggests that the closure may be deferred until September which is the word that I've heard on the ground too. Pic of the 'Save the Rosslare Railway' T-shirt coming shortly.



Yuk, but in a good cause! Would have preferred an A-class.

Goes to show just how underutilised the line is, they don't even know what Irish trains look like!

lord lucan

Jaysus!! If i'd known EMD F40PH's were running the South Wexford i'd have been down their gricing like a shot!

Hungerford

SeanConnick wrote:

As a former Chairman of South East on Track, I have been an ineffective lobbyist a lobbyist for improved railway services for over a decade and have been passionate about railway travel to New Ross. I want to see this railway line achieve its true potential rather than being wound down just two years from an election”

There were a few mistakes in the original release...

JHMEG

purplepanda wrote: »

The total for Wexford County is fast approaching 150,000 & could be even higher.

131,000 at last census, and falling since then.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

A rumour on IRN last night suggests that the closure may be deferred until September which is the word that I've heard on the ground too. Pic of the 'Save the Rosslare Railway' T-shirt coming shortly.



Yuk, but in a good cause! Would have preferred an A-class.

Considering the amount of trainspotters on their facebook page, you'd think they'd have had decent advice. But alas quirky photos of days gone by and model railways are all it seems to amount to.:rolleyes:

lord lucan

IE probably wouldn't release the image rights for their locos!:pac:

Our man in Havana

lord lucan wrote: »

IE probably wouldn't release the image rights for their locos!:pac:

LOL!

Judgement Day

Total confusion now reigns over the proposed closure of the line on the 21st July but this piece in today's Enniscorthy Guardian 'appears' to confirm the rumours that closure has been deferred until September. To me this smacks of a political move to let it appear that the NTA is really being allowed to do its job and not rubber stamping Dempsey's cock eyed masterplan for the 'development' of Irish railways. Nice to see the IRRS 'Chicken Dinner' special gets a mention too. Guess I'll put the Dutch Gold back in the fridge until September.

JHMEG

Jeez, how many agencies and how long does it take to figure out 3 trains a day, each way, sensible and convenient times, and see how it goes. There.

Anyone reading from any of these agencies: the above advice was provided for free.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Jeez, how many agencies and how long does it take to figure out 3 trains a day, each way, sensible and convenient times, and see how it goes. There.

Anyone reading from any of these agencies: the above advice was provided for free.

It's not quite as simple as that.

The issue is coming up with a timetable which does not cost significantly extra over the existing costs.

The real problem is, as already mentioned in this thread, that there are 11 manned level crossings on the line, each worked by a single gatekeeper. Therefore the gatekeepers each work a split shift, on duty in the early morning, then a break in the middle of the day when the line is closed, and back again in the afternoon/early evening.

The other problem is that the evening services are crewed by a Waterford based crew, that have to be bussed back. If they were operated by a Rosslare based crew that would significantly improve the scheduling options. However, that in itself carries extra cost as you need crew cover for absence as well. But some crews may be prepared to relocate to Rosslare from Waterford.

The challenge is to come up with a timetable that can work around these fairly major constraints.

Having said that, my own view is that it is certainly possible with a bit of imaginative thinking, and co-operation amongst all the parties involved to come up with a reasonable timetable, that could involve Waterford/Campile or Waterford/Wellingtonbridge short workings, along with an additional Waterford/Wexford return service.

Perhaps Campile could be designated a Park & Ride site to/from Waterford?

JHMEG

KC61 wrote:

It's not quite as simple as that.

Oh but it is. At the moment it's being killed by its own timetable.

Introduce a proper timetable and if it dies because people aren't arsed using it, then close it.

KC61 wrote: »

Perhaps Campile could be designated a Park & Ride site to/from Waterford?

No, Campile has a popution of 300. And Waterford station isn't convenient for commuters as all the employment is on the other side of the city.

Judgement Day

Sadly, to save the Waterford/Rosslare line is going to involve a serious rethink and spending of money. Looking at the route as just for local commuters is never going to be viable. A through route to Limerick and beyond yes, commuter traffic too and with the Rosslare Strand avoiding curve rebuilt as alternative route to Dublin. There is a whole catchment area from Bray southwards that would find it quicker to travel to Waterford via Rosslare Strand than via Heuston even with present line speed limits. Foot passenger traffic may have died during the era of cheap air travel but it will come back and instead of the current defeatist attitude of 'it's gone' as put forward by Rail Users Ireland and CIE/IE it needs to be gone after. There should be huge benefits for the South East with Biffo's plan to give free rail travel to overseas visitors but not if this link is removed. However, CIE/IE are incapable of the quantum leap of imagination that this would take and I really don't have the answer but it is not in talking about commuter traffic to and from Waterford and Campile.

Incidentally, has anyone seen any statement from Failte Ireland about this closure? Fat chance from an organisation equally past its sell-by-date as CIE/IE.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Oh but it is. At the moment it's being killed by its own timetable.

Introduce a proper timetable and if it dies because people aren't arsed using it, then close it.


No, Campile has a popution of 300. And Waterford station isn't convenient for commuters as all the employment is on the other side of the city.

With respect I was only making the point that you over-simplified the situation. If it is that easy, why don't you come up with a draft timetable that meets all the criteria of using the same number of crews, meets EU working hours regulations, and also does not require additional gatekeepers.

I went on to say that I do believe that an improved timetable would be possible but it would be something that would require give and take by all parties involved. I don't think that three return workings along the entire line would be possible within all the constraints above, because of the number of level crossings and by default the number of gatekeepers. However, additional short workings to/from Campile or Wellingtonbridge would be possible.

By suggesting Campile Station as a P & R site, I am suggesting using it as a potential focal point for the rail services - it's not the population of Campile I was thinking of but rather the region. People could drive there and then take the train.

By your last statement then the campaigners might as well give up. Some co-operation from Bus Eireann by putting in place a rail feeder service from the station would solve that problem.

highlydebased

That newspaper article is extremely poorly written.

KC61

I would tend to agree with Judgement Day that if the line were to be properly developed there would need to be a commitment from all parties, including other state and local agencies, to support it, and which would involve (insofar as possible) connectivity with the two lines to Dublin and the line to Limerick Junction.

JHMEG

I don't believe IE are short staffed in the Waterford region? From what I have been told by someone who works there it's quite the opposite.

And anyway who said they cannot spend more money providing services? Who said they can't use any more train crews or any other staff? If the patronage increases meaningfully as a result the losses are likely to decrease. Win-win.

KC61 wrote: »

By your last statement then the campaigners might as well give up.

Why? Most train stations in Ireland are not used by commuters? Eg Sligo. Commuters are not the be-all and end-all, tho they greatly help.

KC61

There is limited potential for this line, but I think it's primary development potential is in the following order:

1) Offer decent commuter options - there is additional potential there with a properly designed timetable with later services from Waterford
2) Offer meaningful connections to other routes - why not start one of the early morning trains from Waterford to Dublin in Wellingtonbridge and vice versa in the evening?

As for costs - we have to be realistic here. The government is directing the company to cut costs wherever possible - that is the reality of the situation. Coming up with proposals that increase costs significantly are not going to wash. Reallocating additional staff costs to the line would have to be supported somehow by additional revenue over and above that from running the additional trains.

Modest increases in cost could possibly be justified, and I think that is possible, but if you are suggesting that there are (for example) 11 additional staff members' costs that could be reallocated to the line to offer two shifts on the gates, I just don't think that is going to be justifiable.

KC61

Just to add one point which is that the company needs to think outside the box and come up with solid ideas that market the rail route and increase awareness of it.

Unfortunately that is something that local management in Waterford appear singularly incapable of doing with regard to the two regional routes from Waterford to Limerick Junction and Rosslare. I would cite the example of yet again no special being organised from Waterford to Thurles for the Munster Hurling Final last weekend. A perfect example of an opportunity to raise awareness of the route wasted.

And before anyone reminds me that the line is closed on Sundays, well I know that. But they managed to operate an annual special from Waterford to Claremorris every summer for a pilgrimage to Knock, so I don't see why they couldn't open it for match specials.

Hungerford

KC61 wrote: »

Modest increases in cost could possibly be justified, and I think that is possible, but if you are suggesting that there are (for example) 11 additional staff members' costs that could be reallocated to the line to offer two shifts on the gates, I just don't think that is going to be justifiable.

The issue is that most of the line's cost is actually fixed expenditure due to inefficient operations. The gatekeepers work eight hours per day yet the line is only in use for three hours each day. From what I can gather, the drivers and the railcar do precious little during the day too.

As a result, you could actually increase the service relatively easily with a tiny increase in cost which would be more than offset by increased revenues.

Tricky Dicky is actually desperately trying to bury an internal IE report which found that switching to three trips per day each way would cut the loss by €600,000. In addition, the load factor would rise to a relatively respectable 42%.

There are rumours that IE didn't do an analysis on a more frequent service because of fears that the load factor would rise even more dramatically, decreasing the loss by over €1 million.

What would be particularly frightening for Tricky and his cronies is that if they operated a frequent service AND automated the level crossings, the case for closing the line would be non-existent.

As it is, Tricky is having desperate trouble convincing the NTA to shut the line. In fact, the one thing he has left going for him is that the local campaign against closure has been hijacked by Nigel, Tarquin and their ginger-beer swilling chums.

KC61

Hungerford wrote: »

The issue is that most of the line's cost is actually fixed expenditure due to inefficient operations. The gatekeepers work eight hours per day yet the line is only in use for three hours each day. From what I can gather, the drivers and the railcar do precious little during the day too.

As a result, you could actually increase the service relatively easily with a tiny increase in cost which would be more than offset by increased revenues.

Tricky Dicky is actually desperately trying to bury an internal IE report which found that switching to three trips per day each way would cut the loss by €600,000. In addition, the load factor would rise to a relatively respectable 42%.

There are rumours that IE didn't do an analysis on a more frequent service because of fears that the load factor would rise even more dramatically, decreasing the loss by over €1 million.

What would be particularly frightening for Tricky and his cronies is that if they operated a frequent service AND automated the level crossings, the case for closing the line would be non-existent.

As it is, Tricky is having desperate trouble convincing the NTA to shut the line. In fact, the one thing he has left going for him is that the local campaign against closure has been hijacked by Nigel, Tarquin and their ginger-beer swilling chums.

I don't disagree that the main costs are fixed, I'm just pointing out that the gatekeepers hours do dictate the level of service that can be provided, and that three full return services would be next to near impossible given the hours available and the fact that the unit also operates a service from Waterford/Limerick Junction and v.v.

And to be quite honest I think that the closure has far more to do with the local management in Waterford than Dick Fearn. Without getting personal as I don't think it achieves anything, I really think that is where the real problem lies. They have shown zero interest in the regional routes and are only interested in Waterford/Dublin.

As for the campaign being "hijacked" - I haven't noticed that. The main forces behind the campaign are all local people as it should be.

Transportuser09

Hungerford wrote: »

In fact, the one thing he has left going for him is that the local campaign against closure has been hijacked by Nigel, Tarquin and their ginger-beer swilling chums.

No it hasn't, but I agree on the other points.