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Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!
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save the rail wrote: »the company interested in taking over the line have their own stock they wont need IR's trains ;-)
Therefore it must be the RPSI, Downpatrick or an operator from Brazil, New South Wales, Victoria or South Australia - all equally unlikely in my opinion.0 -
Judgement Day wrote: »Therefore it must be the RPSI, Downpatrick or an operator from Brazil, New South Wales, Victoria or South Australia - all equally unlikely in my opinion.
Or Translink/NIR!!! Not exactly more likely than the above!0 -
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So any potential private operator woulld need to convert rolling stock to Irisih gauge by changing bogies on existing railcars / coaches or perhaps ordering new stock. Any company that builds or renovates trains could do this job I would assume. If the private company are seriously interested they would already have considered the problems anyway.
Doesn't seem that much of an issue for a company with experience in operating rail services in many different countries IMO
A new private operator would also need a depot for maintainence as well. Unless they wanted to sub contract the work to IE of course? :eek:0 -
Southsider1 wrote: »I believe all te UK train operators lease their stock from the Dept of Transport so it's unlikely to be one of them if they have their own trains.
Some of the more modern stock is rented from leasing companies I think HBSC is one of those. Privatised a few years back..
Angel trains have got an online form here http://www.angeltrains.co.uk/fleet/request.aspx so you can all order some new rolling stock from them! :P0 -
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Privatisation has worked wonders in the UK. Granted stock is easier to come by but I dont think modified bogies would be a huge barrier.
Have a look at the train companies running from Wrexham and Hull to London as examples. They only have a minimal fleet (three trains maybe) and yet seem to be making a go of their services.
Rail is a huge success in the UK currently and a huge lemon here.It doesnt have to be that way0 -
Southsider1 wrote: »I believe all te UK train operators lease their stock from the Dept of Transport so it's unlikely to be one of them if they have their own trains.
All TOCs do but Translink isn't a TOC. Due to lots of factors including the gauge difference they were never included in the privatisation frenzy.
I'm almost sure DB operate trains across break-of-gauges somewhere in their network, its unlikely but possible that the adjustable bogies these have support 1600mm.0 -
I almost forgot these people - I think they were behind a scheme to regauge the NI rail system to 4ft 8.5" a few years back. They have a BCDR six wheel carriage body!! :rolleyes:http://www.countydownrailwaymuseum.org.uk/Great%20Irish%20Railway%20Challenge.htm
more here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8163158.stm
Here it is, isn't the internet great for tracking down nutters?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_9_40/ai_65803938/0 -
All TOCs do but Translink isn't a TOC. Due to lots of factors including the gauge difference they were never included in the privatisation frenzy.
I'm almost sure DB operate trains across break-of-gauges somewhere in their network, its unlikely but possible that the adjustable bogies these have support 1600mm.
How much would it cost to convert a railcar set from standard gauge to Irish gauge compatible? Or would it be off the radar altogether?0 -
It wouldn't cost that much.0
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1,000 posts on this thread and the line's still open!
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I bet the "private company interested in operating the line" is Trampower.
Google that name and you'll see where I'm going with that...0 -
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How much would it cost to convert a railcar set from standard gauge to Irish gauge compatible? Or would it be off the radar altogether?
Not a tortuous amount. Both NIR and until recently Irish Rail operated units that were converted. Going from wider to narrower could cause problems with the width of underfloor engines etc but we're going from narrower to wider.0 -
Hungerford wrote: »They said that the operator had their own trains though, not a single demo tram and a litany of failed bids behind them.
Did they try to foist said demo tram on CIE at some stage (the time it was renting the NIR DMUs maybe?) The photo on Wikipedia of it in the early 90s (its been the same demo unit since then it appears) has Maynooth as its destination :eek:0 -
Not a tortuous amount. Both NIR and until recently Irish Rail operated units that were converted. Going from wider to narrower could cause problems with the width of underfloor engines etc but we're going from narrower to wider.
There were mk2 coaches regauged by both IR and NIR (RPSI too I think). However these would be less complicated as it only involves changing the bogie units. A railcar would be far more complicated given the equipment needed to power the unit (traction motors etc...) means that the bogies themselves would have to modified. Apart from the NIR leyland railbus I'm not aware of any railcar units being regauged for use over here.0 -
I reckon its the RPSI who want to run this route. Either that or <snip> is planning a coup. 0
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There is a small railway in waterford can't remember what its called but maybe it is them that want to operate trains on this route?0
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There is a small railway in waterford can't remember what its called but maybe it is them that want to operate trains on this route?
That's the Waterford and Suir Valley railway - it is a 3ft narrow gauge line so their stock would not be suitable (and pretty slow too!).
I very much doubt that the RPSI would have the resources to run the line either!0 -
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DWCommuter wrote: »I reckon its the RPSI who want to run this route. Either that or <snip> is planning a coup.
Who's snip?:D0 -
Did they try to foist said demo tram on CIE at some stage (the time it was renting the NIR DMUs maybe?) The photo on Wikipedia of it in the early 90s (its been the same demo unit since then it appears) has Maynooth as its destination :eek:
I don't know - what I do know is they can't demo it in Britain at the moment after the demo tram caught fire in Blackpool a few years ago. A subsequent British RAIU investigation found that the electrics were a Mickey Mouse job.
While they repaired the demo tram, Blackpool's tram operator told them to sling their hook and nobody seems prepared to work with them because of the RAIU findings.0 -
Transportuser09 wrote: »I very much doubt that the RPSI would have the resources to run the line either!
My suspicions would be that it could be relatively attractive to an international concern looking to develop a foothold in the Irish market.
You may ask why would they be interested and my response would be - the line section in question has two ports and the Irish government will soon be forced by the EU to subsidise rail freight.
We already know that Tricky Dicky has turned away several private companies who wanted to use Rosslare for containers in the recent past. These services would have used the Waterford-Rosslare route before heading off towards Limerick and Dublin.
There is actually a pretty straightforward strategy by which you could use Rosslare-Waterford as a stalking horse to gain running rights over the entire system in a short period of time, where you can run subsidised freight trains backed by a monopoly on passenger services on certain 'unprofitable' routes, which would become profitable with PSO payments and the fact that you would only have to pay a proportion of the network operator's running costs.0 -
SAVE THE ROSSLARE-WATERFORD RAIL LINE'S SUBMISSION TO NTA
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=15710&post=88500&uid=367387502018#post88500 on facebook
The Save the Rail Group is a voluntary group specifically formed with the objective of campaigning to retain and develop the Rosslare to Waterford rail line.
The Save the Rail Group Committee has been involved with conducting surveys, liaising with stakeholders and raising awareness of the potential benefits of an improved rail service.
The Save the Rail Group considers that IE should not be given permission to close the line in the absence of a specific plan to boost patronage. At present the line barely meets the needs of those travelling on it and the timetabling does not encourage other potential passengers. The Group considers that IE has failed to market and promote the rail line to enable it to be more financially viable.
The Rosslare to Waterford Rail Line should be seen as a link from the West of Ireland to the rest of Europe and not solely as a commuter line from the South of Wexford to Waterford City.
Peak oil will impact within the next few years. Equally the recent volcanic eruption and very probable larger eruption in the future illustrate the folly of relying solely on air for international access. During the recent airspace closure the Waterford-Rosslare train was standing room only, this is testimony to the line’s strategic economic importance as an integral part of this state’s southern sea-rail access corridor.
IÉ have cited the following reasons for the proposed closure of the line:
- revenue meeting 2% of costs
- low population within the line’s catchment area
- low usage
- reduction of the subvention
- cessation of beet traffic and the consequent loss of revenue from freight
Demographic Information
With the combined population of South Wexford, Waterford City and Wexford town at approximately ninety three thousand inhabitants, there is scope for improved usage of the line.
Present Timetable
The present service consists of one train in each direction Mondays to Saturdays inclusive; 0700 ex Rosslare Europort and 1720 ex Waterford. The vast majority of users are workers and students commuting into Waterford City. The present timetable is inconveniently timed for the average working day. The line is the only one in the state devoid of a Sunday service thereby excluding the significant traffic of workers/students returning home for the weekend. Similarly the short-break weekend tourism traffic is precluded.
Fare Avoidance
It is common knowledge that as there is rarely a ticket checker on board the train and as there is no barrier at Waterford Station, the train can be used for free. Apart from Plunkett Station, the only station where tickets can be purchased is at Rosslare Strand. This has meant that IE has had to rely on the honesty of their passengers to fully account for the amount actually using the line.
Comparison with Car Transport
The line possesses a considerable competitive advantage over the corresponding road journey duration between South Co. Wexford and Waterford (the Barrow Railway Bridge is several miles downstream of New Ross, the nearest road bridge.). The daily build up of traffic at Ferrybank in Waterford in the morning and New Ross in the evening adds considerably to journey times.
At present there is a large amount of vehicular traffic movement between Counties Wexford and Waterford. According to Traffic Counter Data from 2009, the N25 at Carrickbyrne in Co. Wexford carries approximately 2.6 million vehicle trips per annum. The Passage East Car Ferry carried approximately 300,000 vehicles per annum in 2006; this corresponds to approximately 1 million passengers. The rail line has the potential to reduce this volume of traffic and thereby reduce the volume of transport sector emissions.The South Wexford stations at present have poorly maintained car parks which, if properly exploited have park and ride potential.
The Line as part of the Regional Rail Network
The line is being fundamentally undermined by being operated and appraised as if it were a branch line. The line is part of a natural regional line of route with strong demographics (Wexford-Waterford-Clonmel-Limerick-Galway). This line can directly link three of our major cities (Waterford, Galway & Limerick). The line also has three key transport nodes along its length: Limerick Junction for frequent trains to Cork, Sixmilebridge for coach access to nearby Shannon Airport and Rosslare Europort for Welsh & continental ferries.
Trains on the line at present fail to connect with the wider railway network. An example of this lack of integration is the fact that the afternoon train from Dublin/Kilkenny reaches Waterford at 533pm, just thirteen minutes after the solitary Rosslare train has departed at 520pm. Similarly a passenger reaching Waterford at 820am from the line must wait until 1100am for the next train to Kilkenny or until 1230pm to travel westwards (Clonmel/Cork/Limerick).
The Line as Part of the European Rail Network
The rail line is a connection with UK and French rail services. With the present timetable, the only connection to Waterford from Rosslare Europort is the 7am service. On the Welsh side of the Irish Sea at Fishguard, dedicated ‘boat trains’ are integrated with all conventional ship arrivals/departures at Fishguard and link immediately with London-bound High-Speed trains at Swansea/Cardiff. Indeed the frequency of trains to/from Fishguard is destined to be significantly increased in the near future.
The Save the Rail Committee undertook a survey of passengers on the Stena Line sailing on the 4th of June 2010. Eighty six ferry passengers walked straight from the ferry upon docking at Fishguard straight onto the waiting train. There is the potential for the equivalent ferry foot passenger to rail traffic on this side of the Irish Sea.
With proper marketing and promotion the line has real potential to boost tourism. Many tourist attractions are dotted along or within easy reach of the line.
SurveyThe Save the Rail Group Committee voluntarily undertook a survey of potential passengers on dates between 27/05/2010 and 28/06/2010. (See enclosed)
The surveys were conducted face to face, the majority of which were door to door. Respondents were asked if they would use an improved service on the line, not only one that corresponded to normal working hours but also allowed leisure and shopping usage.
A total of 1,260 potential passengers were surveyed. Out of those, 1,081 said that they would use the service. A potential annual total of 64,019 round trips would be generated from these respondents alone.Proposed Alternative Bus TimetableThe Save the Rail Group considers that the proposed alternative bus timetable is unsuitable and unworkable.
The proposed service will not connect with Ballycullane which is presently served by the rail service.
The timetable is wildly optimistic bearing in mind the traffic jams at Ferrybank in Waterford in the morning and New Ross in the evening do not seem to be accounted for. The bus service, in our opinion, will not be punctual or reliable for both commuters and students travelling to WIT.
As a Group, one of our main areas of concern is that of the situation of those using the line to access third level education, at present and into the future. Co. Wexford has a lower than average proportion of inhabitants who go onto third level education. Having a punctual and reliable public transport service will do much to make a transition to third level easier.
Disability access will also be problematic. As the proposed route will connect with Waterford Regional Hospital, it would be vital that the buses used are readily accessible for wheelchair users. At present, with the Bus Eireann service connecting Rosslare Europort to Waterford, wheelchair users have to book a ‘kneeling’ bus 24 hours in advance with no guarantee of one being available. If a ‘kneeling’ bus is provided as an alternative to the rail service, it would be up to the Local Authority to provide suitable kerbing to enable the bus stop to be level with the floor of the bus. We have been informed that the Local Authority would not be in a position financially to enable this to happen.
On Bus Eireann bus services, toilet facilities are either not available or completely inaccessible to wheelchair users. The present rail service has wheelchair accessible toilets.Freight
Two ports viz. Belview, Waterford and Rosslare Europort lie on the line. Rail freight goes to Belview but there is no rail freight to Rosslare. While the cessation of beet traffic is disappointing, IÉ must be encouraged to investigate alternative freight flows to either Belview/Rosslare.
Proposals for Improved Viability of the Rosslare to Waterford Rail Line
The Save the Rail Group considers that the line can meet this country’s future passenger (& freight) transport needs if given the opportunity to do so.
With this in mind, the Group would strongly recommend:
- A three times daily through train in each direction along the line between
Wexford/Rosslare and Limerick/Galway with at least one train in each direction on Sundays.- Meaningful and user-friendly connections developed at interchange stations (Rosslare Strand and Waterford). Passengers from the South Wexford Line should have the facility to travel not just to/from Waterford but to/from Wexford or any station on the Rosslare-Dublin line; to/from any station along the line to Limerick/Galway and to/from any station along the Waterford-Kilkenny-Dublin line.
- A proper marketing and publicity strategy: effective and widespread marketing of the service and attendant services e.g. SailRail to Britain.
- Development of further freight flows along the line.
- Development of cycle/walking trails from South Wexford line stations.
- The appointment of a route development manager to develop the above issues enabling the line to realise its optimum potential.
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save the rail wrote: »SAVE THE ROSSLARE-WATERFORD RAIL LINE'S SUBMISSION TO NTA
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=15710&post=88500&uid=367387502018#post88500 on facebook
The Save the Rail Group is a voluntary group specifically formed with the objective of campaigning to retain and develop the Rosslare to Waterford rail line.
The Save the Rail Group Committee has been involved with conducting surveys, liaising with stakeholders and raising awareness of the potential benefits of an improved rail service.
The Save the Rail Group considers that IE should not be given permission to close the line in the absence of a specific plan to boost patronage. At present the line barely meets the needs of those travelling on it and the timetabling does not encourage other potential passengers. The Group considers that IE has failed to market and promote the rail line to enable it to be more financially viable.
The Rosslare to Waterford Rail Line should be seen as a link from the West of Ireland to the rest of Europe and not solely as a commuter line from the South of Wexford to Waterford City.
Peak oil will impact within the next few years. Equally the recent volcanic eruption and very probable larger eruption in the future illustrate the folly of relying solely on air for international access. During the recent airspace closure the Waterford-Rosslare train was standing room only, this is testimony to the line’s strategic economic importance as an integral part of this state’s southern sea-rail access corridor.
IÉ have cited the following reasons for the proposed closure of the line:- revenue meeting 2% of costs
- low population within the line’s catchment area
- low usage
- reduction of the subvention
- cessation of beet traffic and the consequent loss of revenue from freight
Demographic Information
With the combined population of South Wexford, Waterford City and Wexford town at approximately ninety three thousand inhabitants, there is scope for improved usage of the line.
Present Timetable
The present service consists of one train in each direction Mondays to Saturdays inclusive; 0700 ex Rosslare Europort and 1720 ex Waterford. The vast majority of users are workers and students commuting into Waterford City. The present timetable is inconveniently timed for the average working day. The line is the only one in the state devoid of a Sunday service thereby excluding the significant traffic of workers/students returning home for the weekend. Similarly the short-break weekend tourism traffic is precluded.
Fare Avoidance
It is common knowledge that as there is rarely a ticket checker on board the train and as there is no barrier at Waterford Station, the train can be used for free. Apart from Plunkett Station, the only station where tickets can be purchased is at Rosslare Strand. This has meant that IE has had to rely on the honesty of their passengers to fully account for the amount actually using the line.
Comparison with Car Transport
The line possesses a considerable competitive advantage over the corresponding road journey duration between South Co. Wexford and Waterford (the Barrow Railway Bridge is several miles downstream of New Ross, the nearest road bridge.). The daily build up of traffic at Ferrybank in Waterford in the morning and New Ross in the evening adds considerably to journey times.
At present there is a large amount of vehicular traffic movement between Counties Wexford and Waterford. According to Traffic Counter Data from 2009, the N25 at Carrickbyrne in Co. Wexford carries approximately 2.6 million vehicle trips per annum. The Passage East Car Ferry carried approximately 300,000 vehicles per annum in 2006; this corresponds to approximately 1 million passengers. The rail line has the potential to reduce this volume of traffic and thereby reduce the volume of transport sector emissions.The South Wexford stations at present have poorly maintained car parks which, if properly exploited have park and ride potential.
The Line as part of the Regional Rail Network
The line is being fundamentally undermined by being operated and appraised as if it were a branch line. The line is part of a natural regional line of route with strong demographics (Wexford-Waterford-Clonmel-Limerick-Galway). This line can directly link three of our major cities (Waterford, Galway & Limerick). The line also has three key transport nodes along its length: Limerick Junction for frequent trains to Cork, Sixmilebridge for coach access to nearby Shannon Airport and Rosslare Europort for Welsh & continental ferries.
Trains on the line at present fail to connect with the wider railway network. An example of this lack of integration is the fact that the afternoon train from Dublin/Kilkenny reaches Waterford at 533pm, just thirteen minutes after the solitary Rosslare train has departed at 520pm. Similarly a passenger reaching Waterford at 820am from the line must wait until 1100am for the next train to Kilkenny or until 1230pm to travel westwards (Clonmel/Cork/Limerick).
The Line as Part of the European Rail Network
The rail line is a connection with UK and French rail services. With the present timetable, the only connection to Waterford from Rosslare Europort is the 7am service. On the Welsh side of the Irish Sea at Fishguard, dedicated ‘boat trains’ are integrated with all conventional ship arrivals/departures at Fishguard and link immediately with London-bound High-Speed trains at Swansea/Cardiff. Indeed the frequency of trains to/from Fishguard is destined to be significantly increased in the near future.
The Save the Rail Committee undertook a survey of passengers on the Stena Line sailing on the 4th of June 2010. Eighty six ferry passengers walked straight from the ferry upon docking at Fishguard straight onto the waiting train. There is the potential for the equivalent ferry foot passenger to rail traffic on this side of the Irish Sea.
With proper marketing and promotion the line has real potential to boost tourism. Many tourist attractions are dotted along or within easy reach of the line.SurveyThe Save the Rail Group Committee voluntarily undertook a survey of potential passengers on dates between 27/05/2010 and 28/06/2010. (See enclosed)
The surveys were conducted face to face, the majority of which were door to door. Respondents were asked if they would use an improved service on the line, not only one that corresponded to normal working hours but also allowed leisure and shopping usage.
A total of 1,260 potential passengers were surveyed. Out of those, 1,081 said that they would use the service. A potential annual total of 64,019 round trips would be generated from these respondents alone.Proposed Alternative Bus TimetableThe Save the Rail Group considers that the proposed alternative bus timetable is unsuitable and unworkable.
The proposed service will not connect with Ballycullane which is presently served by the rail service.
The timetable is wildly optimistic bearing in mind the traffic jams at Ferrybank in Waterford in the morning and New Ross in the evening do not seem to be accounted for. The bus service, in our opinion, will not be punctual or reliable for both commuters and students travelling to WIT.
As a Group, one of our main areas of concern is that of the situation of those using the line to access third level education, at present and into the future. Co. Wexford has a lower than average proportion of inhabitants who go onto third level education. Having a punctual and reliable public transport service will do much to make a transition to third level easier.
Disability access will also be problematic. As the proposed route will connect with Waterford Regional Hospital, it would be vital that the buses used are readily accessible for wheelchair users. At present, with the Bus Eireann service connecting Rosslare Europort to Waterford, wheelchair users have to book a ‘kneeling’ bus 24 hours in advance with no guarantee of one being available. If a ‘kneeling’ bus is provided as an alternative to the rail service, it would be up to the Local Authority to provide suitable kerbing to enable the bus stop to be level with the floor of the bus. We have been informed that the Local Authority would not be in a position financially to enable this to happen.
On Bus Eireann bus services, toilet facilities are either not available or completely inaccessible to wheelchair users. The present rail service has wheelchair accessible toilets.Freight
Two ports viz. Belview, Waterford and Rosslare Europort lie on the line. Rail freight goes to Belview but there is no rail freight to Rosslare. While the cessation of beet traffic is disappointing, IÉ must be encouraged to investigate alternative freight flows to either Belview/Rosslare.Proposals for Improved Viability of the Rosslare to Waterford Rail Line
The Save the Rail Group considers that the line can meet this country’s future passenger (& freight) transport needs if given the opportunity to do so.
With this in mind, the Group would strongly recommend:- A three times daily through train in each direction along the line between
Wexford/Rosslare and Limerick/Galway with at least one train in each direction on Sundays.- Meaningful and user-friendly connections developed at interchange stations (Rosslare Strand and Waterford). Passengers from the South Wexford Line should have the facility to travel not just to/from Waterford but to/from Wexford or any station on the Rosslare-Dublin line; to/from any station along the line to Limerick/Galway and to/from any station along the Waterford-Kilkenny-Dublin line.
- A proper marketing and publicity strategy: effective and widespread marketing of the service and attendant services e.g. SailRail to Britain.
- Development of further freight flows along the line.
- Development of cycle/walking trails from South Wexford line stations.
- The appointment of a route development manager to develop the above issues enabling the line to realise its optimum potential.
Excellent, well done.0 -
Very good submission and my only disagreement would be with your statement that CIE/IE operate the South Wexford line as a branchline - if only! Branchlines by their very nature were built to feed traffic onto the mainlines and the South Wexford lines feeds into nothing - it is operated as a self-contained, isolated line such as the Waterford & Tramore railway.0
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Judgement Day wrote: »Very good submission and my only disagreement would be with your statement that CIE/IE operate the South Wexford line as a branchline - if only! Branchlines by their very nature were built to feed traffic onto the mainlines and the South Wexford lines feeds into nothing - it is operated as a self-contained, isolated line such as the Waterford & Tramore railway.
The line feeds into rosslare - dublin
Rosslare - waterford - limerick-dublin-cork ect
it is a branch line just its not used as a branch line but thats just bad management0 -
Most UK operators lease stock. First group own outright a number of the High Spead Trains (both power cars and MK3 trailers) these were bought several years ago when the Department of Transport decided they had no future........ somehow they got that wrong.
Couple of options for stock:
New Zeland railways have bought large number of MK2 carriages that were littering various ex MOD sites and have done fantastic things to them (power doors, generator sets).
An easy option could be a MK2 DBSO (Driving Brake Second Open) these were used in East Anglia prior to MK3 DVT's. Network Rail took some for use on test trains to reduce the incidence of top and tailing (engine at either end). So possibility of obtaining a DBSO or two regauge them and rewire and stick them on the end of a rake of MK2's
Or
Something like the Parry People mover that is currently being used on Stourbridge Shuttle- I would point out this is only a half mile shuttle however the company has idea's for larger units see here:
http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/0 -
We could just use the Mk2 DBSO which NIR bought and have absolutely no intention of using. Saw it in York Road on Monday, absolute waste.0
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Which would be more practical - faffing around with a single DBSO and some Mk2s not to mention finding a PP loco to run it off or making NIR an offer for the just-about-still-in-service 450s they are just about to get rid of with the arrival of the 4000 class CAFs?
Might be an issue sneaking them past the fun police mind, since they have never seen service in the Republic in IE colours and probably wouldn't have the latest and greatest in safety mods and accessibility stuff.0
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This discussion has been closed.
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