Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

Ham'nd'egger

thomasj wrote: »

I was thinking that myself but the opportunity of taking on the freight business along with passenger services might be a tempting offer

Rosslare is primarily a passenger ferry port that can only handle Ro-Ro traffic; it hasn't the capacity or capability to deal with container or large scale freight. Down the line you have a deep ferry port that already takes rail freight traffic so there isn't a scope or a commercial logic to compete for what traditionally hasn't been that big a market on Irish railways; ie container rail.

topnotch

If they see the condition of the sleepers ontop of Taylorstown viaduct they will run away fairly quick.:eek:
There is better timber on the deck of the titanic at present. I think people are really under estimating how bad the sleepers are in places and the level of resleepering that is going to be required.

Also if they cant spray the line when it's operational there hardly going to do any better now that it's closed.
http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p66004840.html

Partizan

From reading the posts and doing some background research into the campaign, I am not so pessimistic as some here are. The Rail group has been involved in a great campaign and there is I believe a real momentum behind the campaign that it is unlikely to stop just now.

The ruling from the NTA compelling IE to maintain the line is a real silver lining in all of this. IE having publicly stated that they have no interest in running the line now clears the way for a private operator to come in and run it. IE simply cannot run roughshod over the NTA ruling to run the line down as in Waterford-New Ross because the legal requirement is nowe there. I would not be surprised to see a judicial review taken against the decision.

The line would be attractive to a new rail company as the line connects it with a major port and it has the potential to not only serve Waterford-Wexford but also straight through to Limerick Junction and connect to the Dublin-Cork-Galway-Kerry routes. Same can be said for the Wexford end => Bray.

What people are forgetting is that there is €17 million of EU money to upgrade the line not to mention further monies cooperation from the private sector and local authorities in the South East. The stock is there and although they do need refurbishment, I dont think IE would charge them the heavens to use it. I am a realist and I am taking into account the various formalities and permutations involved but some of ye lads need to start hitting the prozac.


and lads and lassies, stop fighting amongst youselves. Its so damn childish.

topnotch

I think they are all out of momentum (steam). It was a well run campaign but it lacked enough support on the ground in Wexford. It's no good railfans trying to keep the line open so they can go for an annual jaunt to reminiss on the great beet days. I dont think people are pesimistic i would say they are being realistic given the track record of IE in relation to care and maintenace of lines in the past. Sure Youghal is still technically open ffs.

Who is going to pay the enormous cost for a judicial review.

Our man in Havana

lord lucan wrote: »

Wellingtonbridge next year under the care and maintenance program?

OurLadyofKnock

Look how few people went on this tour. Could it be that the missing ones have finally woken up to the true nature of the IRRS?

http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p66004852.html

topnotch

Hollywood is the only hope of saving the line now :P. Last time out they won an academy award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4HCzacT2Y:pac:

Judgement Day

topnotch wrote: »

Hollywood is the only hope of saving the line now :P. Last time out they won an academy award. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4HCzacT2Y:pac:

A surreal film shot on a surreal railway operated by a surreal railway company - one of my favourite movies of recent years it has featured on these threads before. The scene with the board's servant manning the poison truck catering trolley couldn't be closer to reality.


A pic from an earlier movie shows a passenger fighting back against stone throwers at Broombridge.

Judgement Day

Talking of care and maintenance, the Fenit branch in Co.Kerry must surely take 1st prize - this line is still technically open for traffic even if the rails are now buried under a carpark.

Lifelike

Judgement Day wrote: »

Talking of care and maintenance, the Fenit branch in Co.Kerry must surely take 1st prize - this line is still technically open for traffic even if the rails are now buried under a carpark.

Unfortunately that's the only part of the line that's well looked after. The rest is in such an overgrown state that you can't even walk it.

Transportuser09

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Look how few people went on this tour. Could it be that the missing ones have finally woken up to the true nature of the IRRS?

http://thewanderersirishrailphotospot.fotopic.net/p66004852.html

That tour was actually sold out if I recall. There's probably more people out of sight beside the photographer or on the train. In any case the amount of people travelling on a railtour isn't really much of an insight into the lines commericial value.

OurLadyofKnock

Transportuser09 wrote: »

In any case the amount of people travelling on a railtour isn't really much of an insight into the lines commericial value.

You are 100% correct. Considering the extraordinary arrangements CIE/Irish Rail mangement provide for these events compared to how they treat their regular passengers, it is more of an insight into the psychology of a completely and absolutely ****ed up railway company.

OurLadyofKnock

Judgement Day wrote: »

Talking of care and maintenance, the Fenit branch in Co.Kerry must surely take 1st prize - this line is still technically open for traffic even if the rails are now buried under a carpark.

What an impressive footbridge! Beautiful.

Transportuser09

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Considering the extraordinary arrangements CIE/Irish Rail mangement provide for these events compared to how they treat their regular passengers, it is more of an insight into the psychology of a completely and absolutely ****ed up railway company.

I wouldn't call a four car 2800 an extraordinary measure. It's fairly no frills as railtours go. To be honest I've no problem with railtours running, if the IRRS want to hire a train to bring them around the country then that's fine, as the onus is on them to find passengers to make it sell, the same way you can hire a bus from Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus. However I agree IÉ should have put on a better service for it's customers along the south Wexford line, but it's not really related to the occasional railtour.

topnotch

Ya there were another 500 hiding on platform six.:pac:
It does have an impact into the sale of chicken dinners.:P
If anything happens to the next tour the Harbour view hotel will have to go into liquidation.

Judgement Day

topnotch wrote: »

Ya there were another 500 hiding on platform six.:pac:
It does have an impact into the sale of chicken dinners.:P
If anything happens to the next tour the Harbour view hotel will have to go into liquidation.

topnotch is not another of my names - although I do approve of the sentiments.:D

Transportuser09

I'll never understand this obsession some have with what people eat for dinner on their day out, nor it's remote relevence to the development or otherwise of the rail network.

Judgement Day

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I'll never understand this obsession some have with what people eat for dinner on their day out, nor it's remote relevence to the development or otherwise of the rail network.

I don't know perhaps Gourmet Rail or whatever they are called could learn something from this thread.

Ham'nd'egger

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I wouldn't call a four car 2800 an extraordinary measure. It's fairly no frills as railtours go. To be honest I've no problem with railtours running, if the IRRS want to hire a train to bring them around the country then that's fine, as the onus is on them to find passengers to make it sell, the same way you can hire a bus from Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus. However I agree IÉ should have put on a better service for it's customers along the south Wexford line, but it's not really related to the occasional railtour.

I dare say that running the likes of the IRRS tour actually made Irish Rail a few bob in hiring costs etc so if anything, running rail tours is fiscally good for the company

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I'll never understand this obsession some have with what people eat for dinner on their day out, nor it's remote relevence to the development or otherwise of the rail network.

Do you expect anything else from the orcs who live under the railway bridge?

Hungerford

I suppose my attitude is that we have to take the campaigners at face value when they say that they think they can get a private company on the line.

The potential value of the route to the firm isn't necessarily financial though - I suspect that it would be intended to act as foothold into the rest of the country's rail market.

topnotch

Hamndegger wrote: »

I dare say that running the likes of the IRRS tour actually made Irish Rail a few bob in hiring costs etc so if anything, running rail tours is fiscally good for the company

Ya they are raking it in. You forgot about the ferries, they never saw such traffic since the ash cloud.:pac:

Ham'nd'egger

topnotch wrote: »

Ya they are raking it in. You forgot about the ferries, they never saw such traffic since the ash cloud.:pac:

Errrr, the IRRS don't run ferries;)

topnotch

Hamndegger wrote: »

I dare say....;)

I knew i heard that expression somewhere before. Perhaps it was from your favorite movie /childrens charity.:pac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwEXviVF0c

Ham'nd'egger

topnotch wrote: »

I knew i heard that expression somewhere before. Perhaps it was from your favorite movie /childrens charity.:pac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwEXviVF0c

Creating a profile to have a few cheap unfunny digs at people and to impress the "banned"; fair play to you; fair play:rolleyes:

dermo88

Some like to "call a spade a spade". Its needed at times, and a hardline approach to solving problems is required. People get banned because they are passionate, and because they care. As a result, multiple targets get attacked, from trainspotters, to unions, who may justify such an approach in the eyes of some, but cause offence to all who seek a common outcome.

But I sense unfairness at targetting groups such as the RPSI and IRRS. They are not responsible for the closure. Iarnrod Eireann, the Department of Transport and CIE clearly are. They have been aiming for this for more than 30 years now, since three previous announcements in 1977, 1983 and 2002.

The McKinsey report of 1971 and 1981 examined the railway network. In the 1970's, "Railplan 80" was devised. The current system with DMU's, and improved frequencies broadly reflects that on the radial network where there has been major growth.

This route has always been vulnerable, and without major investment in infrastructure, little could be done to improve it.

At best:

(a) Replace all manned level crossings with automatic systems.

(Cost at E250,000 per crossing, E3 Million)

(b) Replace all jointed track

(24 miles at E300,000 per mile, second hand) E7.2 Million)

(c) Automate signalling

Give or take, perhaps E1.5 Million

(d) The final bit is actually crucial to reviving the survival of the line, and that is to reinstate the loop that ran from Killinick to Wexford directly, enabling services to run from Wexford to Waterford direct. Thats the most expensive bit, and based on the costings of the installation of the Lavistown loop on Dublin to Waterford in 1996, adjusted for inflation since, I would state that the 3 mile loop would cost E9 Million, bearing in mind that the old formation would need complete restoration from its old 1915 condition. Looking at Google earth, its in place.

Tanya Fenelon stated on Morning Ireland that usage could then be raised to around 70,000 passengers per annum, based on 3 trains per day in each direction. Use that as a starting point and go bihourly later on if there is demand there.

There are still problems. There have been past precedents for reprieves, such as:

Attymon to Loughrea, originally slated for closure in 1963, lasted until 1976. That was a light railway however.

Sadly, the record of reprieves against CIE is not good. The thought of private operators was mooted before, but again, the record has not been good.
________________________________________________________________

Lets get down to the nitty gritty. Beancounting:

Look at a transport investment the very same way folks look at buying a new car, a mortgage, or a new computer. Its based on a cost benefit analysis. Its costed over a 30 year timeframe.

To bring the line up to the best standards, to a point where it competes with road will cost roughly 20 Million Euro. Between Wellingtonbridge onwards, it is the only mode of transportation that DOES compete effectively with road, and it is probably the only section of line, with the exception of Dublin to Cork that is capable of doing so on a point to point basis.

Thats 600,000 Euro per annum, and at a 5% interest rate, with depreciation of assets, it works out at around 650,000 Euro per annum.

The annual maintainance and operating costs however DROP to 700,000 per annum, from a present figure of 1.9 Million. A net gain of 50,000 per annum.

BUT:

What proportion of households in Wellingtonbridge, Bridgetown, Campile, Ballycullane, own cars. Easily 80% or more. Wexford suffers from mild congestion being an old Viking/Norman settlement with narrow streets. Waterford does to a lesser extent.

And finally WHO PAYS:

The car owner does not want to pay.
CIE does not want to pay.
The taxpayer cannot afford to pay anymore.
Local authorities do not want to pay.

And......bringing up that tired cliche, after paying off the effing banks......can the country now afford to pay?

Essentially, 70,000 passengers per annum, over a 45 kilometer route amounts to 3.15 Million passenger kilometers per annum.

Therefore, the line, upgraded, expanded and improved to the point of social viability costs 40 cents per passenger kilometre.

This is 6 times the cost of the recent Cork to Midleton upgrade.
It is 3 times the cost of expanding from Dunboyne to Navan.
It is 2 times the cost of the Limerick to Galway service.
_______________________________________________________________

This is how these people think. My maths.....well....I need that for a living, and I would like someone to pick holes in it. If I am wrong, well its good, and the line should survive.

But if I am correct, then, we can see similar cold logic applied to the likes of Limerick to Ballybrophy (Which is harder to justify). Limerick to Waterford on the other hand, actually has a chance of beating the axe. Frankly, it needs 3 times more passengers than Tanya Fenelon stated, around 200,000 passengers per annum, or 600 per day. 600 passengers per day was the amount carried in the 1950's or 1960's before the advent of Airlines and Ro-Ro Ferries. Most of that was through traffic, not generated locally going from Rosslare to Cork/Waterford etc. Local traffic was always sparse, and unless the routing is changed to Wexford-Waterford that won't change.

The unfortunate gentleman in the wheelchair mentioned on Morning Ireland will also have the beancounting logic used. They will say...

"The Department of Social Welfare can always arrange a taxi to go for 30, 50, 60 Euro"

But does he really want to undergo the indignity of submitting a claim?

None of us would, why should he?

I am playing devils advocate, lets see whats next. As for Dinosaurs, Fossils, Chicken dinners, its good craic joking about them, but its not going to get rid of CIE, it won't get rid of Noel Dempsey and his cronies, it won't remove CIE's mismanagement, and it certainly won't save this railway, and the other railways that are almost certain to follow in its path like many others since Listowel to Ballybunion closed in 1924.

purplepanda

Dermo88 has made a concise finanancial breakdown above of the costs involved in moderising the Rosslare Waterford line.

It should be pointed out that according to the STR campaign & local politicans that major EU funding is available for the upgrade of the line, the money is there waiting to be claimed from Brussels & it should be claimed ASAP.

Instead we have a ludicrious situation where instead of making a claim to improve & modernise our transport infastructure we decide to close it down instead!! A railway that connects the country to Britain & Europe & that could yet still be a vital asset to future transport links between Ireland & the rest of the EU.

Meanwhile, another EU nation will be availing themsleves of the grants available instead.

foggy_lad

There is European money for railfreight which will most likely never be carried on this line so how do you propose getting euro to hand over their millions?

purplepanda

I was under the impression from discussions a while back on the Facebook campaign page that EU funding was potentially available for the line!

So it's conditional on freight traffic running?

Therefore I'm assuming that the WRC has had actuualy had no grants from the EU transport budget & the Government / taxpayers have paid the complete costs of the project?

Other parts of the national railway network certainly have had EU funding, there's enough signs around the regional stations telling us so, so it appears very strange that one rail line is the execption to the rule!

Or maybe IE & / or the government transport department couldn't be bloody bothered to fill out a claim form????

dowlingm

EU money isn't just one programme - there are several programmes, one of which supports railfreight. However, even if the EU supported all the capital works (miniCTC, bridge safety work, increase line speed above 40mph, automate the LCs) the line will still not make back its costs, reduced as they would be by keeper retirement, unless changes are made on the operating side. With the opening of Dunboyne and the new 22Ks some way off I don't think IE have the stock to make those changes.

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

EU money isn't just one programme - there are several programmes, one of which supports railfreight. However, even if the EU supported all the capital works (miniCTC, bridge safety work, increase line speed above 40mph, automate the LCs) the line will still not make back its costs, reduced as they would be by keeper retirement, unless changes are made on the operating side. With the opening of Dunboyne and the new 22Ks some way off I don't think IE have the stock to make those changes.

What about these?