Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

Judgement Day

From the Save the Rail Facebook page today:

From Tanya Fenelon

http://www.facebook.com/groups/367387502018/

'As promised I will update you all on the latest developments.

Last time I posted I told you all that a survey was to be conducted to see if the support was still there.
Joe Ryan was to arrange that as I was unable to sort it due to a family illness. Joe told me he had spoken with the college and that the students would do this survey.

However yesterday I received an email from Frank O Donoghue informing me that a meeting had taken place with Joe Ryan and himself and that "they felt that there currently is insufficient support to proceed with the highly challenging project of reopening the line" and they made the decision not to go ahead and sent a letter to Dick Fearn informing him of this decision. I was unaware of any meeting or decision previous to the email I received yesterday (15-10-12 15:40pm).'

I suppose that the Facebook page will continue in its recent format - pictures of long closed lines and anecdotes about railways, advice from UK train spotters etc.etc. :rolleyes:

Partizan

Judgement Day wrote: »

From the Save the Rail Facebook page today:

From Tanya Fenelon

http://www.facebook.com/groups/367387502018/

'As promised I will update you all on the latest developments.

Last time I posted I told you all that a survey was to be conducted to see if the support was still there.
Joe Ryan was to arrange that as I was unable to sort it due to a family illness. Joe told me he had spoken with the college and that the students would do this survey.

However yesterday I received an email from Frank O Donoghue informing me that a meeting had taken place with Joe Ryan and himself and that "they felt that there currently is insufficient support to proceed with the highly challenging project of reopening the line" and they made the decision not to go ahead and sent a letter to Dick Fearn informing him of this decision. I was unaware of any meeting or decision previous to the email I received yesterday (15-10-12 15:40pm).'

I suppose that the Facebook page will continue in its recent format - pictures of long closed lines and anecdotes about railways, advice from UK train spotters etc.etc. :rolleyes:

The lifting train will be along in the not so distant future.

Hungerford

Judgement Day wrote: »

From the Save the Rail Facebook page today:

Guess who got shafted by their local Labour politician.

dowlingm

Joe Ryan made an appearance on RUI forums once upon a time. Didn't stick around long once people started asking him to justify his stance.

Partizan

dowlingm wrote: »

Joe Ryan made an appearance on RUI forums once upon a time. Didn't stick around long once people started asking him to justify his stance.

Yep and he has done the job for Dick and his Labour masters. What he has done to Tanya and the STR group is the lowest of the low, i.e. single handedly, sabotaging two years of work that Tanya and the rest of the work that STR had tirelessly and selflessly put in. Ryan had a meeting with Frank O'Donoghue and at this meeting decided, unbeknownst to all the members to practically fold up STR Group. In Tanya's words

yesterday I received an email from Frank O Donoghue informing me that a meeting had taken place with Joe Ryan and himself and that that there currently is insufficient support to proceed with the highly challenging project of reopening the line" and they made the decision not to go ahead and sent a letter to Dick Fearn informing him of this decision. I was unaware of any meeting or decision previous to the email I received yesterday (15-10-12 15:40pm).

What I have to say is unprintable. I am truly disgusted.

end of the road

Partizan wrote: »

Yep and he has done the job for Dick and his Labour masters. What he has done to Tanya and the STR group is the lowest of the low, i.e. single handedly, sabotaging two years of work that Tanya and the rest of the work that STR had tirelessly and selflessly put in. Ryan had a meeting with Frank O'Donoghue and at this meeting decided, unbeknownst to all the members to practically fold up STR Group. In Tanya's words



What I have to say is unprintable. I am truly disgusted.

completely agree with you, i actually thought he was a decent sort, wrong again, should have known better, him being part of labour.

Partizan

Cllr Ryan has replied

With due respect Tanya, I think there seems to be crossed wires on this one. In late June I attended a meeting in Wellington Bridge which had been deferred since April. The attendance was not what would have been expected. I raised at that meeting the possibility of (1) establishing a committee to drive the re-opening and (2) the possibility of a 3rd level institute assessing the line. Both proposals were not enthusiastically received at the meeting. As I was going away on holidays and Frank had specifically requested that the survey would proceed immediately it was yourself who committed to organising the survey.
Much of the meeting was taken up with discussing the Safety issues and the need to develop a relationship with the RSC. On my return from holiday no work of any sort had been done since the June meeting, however in late July I made contact with IE to establish the mechanism by which a service could re-open to Campile arising from my observation of a recent partial movement along the line by stock. In August I secured a commitment by IE that they would address the need for attending to signalling & safety in the context of the proposed re-opening to Campile.

I also confirm that I have discussed the matter with a 3rd level college subsequent to this in September. You have been advised of this. Recently I was contacted by Frank who asked me to meet. He is concerned at the failure of the Wellington Bridge meeting to provide the necessary impetus towards re-opening. Central to that has been the failure of the campaign so far to establish any support in Campile where the restoration of service was proposed.

It is in that context that he proposed to write to IE on his own behalf. His letter is selectively quoted by you. You omitted the full sentence which reads “Having met with some of those keen to see a train service on the Rosslare Waterford line, we have come to the conclusion that there is insufficient support at this stage to progress with your kind offer of a two diesel units at a peppercorn rent”.

That statement is clearly factual. There exists no business plan whatsoever. There has never been any discussion of any sort since June about (a) marketing the line, (b) developing a finance stream (c) seeking legal advice on the project or (b) even formally establishing the group as an entity. The RSC has not been contacted either. Running any service requires all this and more.
Frank has made it clear to me that he is disappointed at the failure of the key individuals to make contact with him and interprets this as a sign of disengagement from the project on their part.

I haven’t had any discussion with you on the subject of the railway since late June except recently when we met by chance and after a long conversation about another project you have been involved in I eventually brought you up to speed on what I had done off my own initiative since June. As the only one who’s been progressing the matter since then I take exception to you posting this. The posters above have the right to a full and not selective version. Rather than dissing on someone who has at least done something over the last 4 months about the project you might be better off addressing some of the points raised above and talking to Frank.
The letter he wrote was on his own behalf for his own reasons.

BTW I forgot to point out that the only submission made to the County Development Plan in relation to the line was made by myself over the summer. That was to ensure the line is preserved for development for future use.

Judgement Day

Whoever's at fault, the outcome will be the same - another 'farewell' railtour followed by the lifting train. CIE must be laughing.

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

Whoever's at fault, the outcome will be the same - another 'farewell' railtour followed by the lifting train. CIE must be laughing.

Nobody is at fault as you put it. The line just died from lack of interest from local people! There was not and is not enough regular users to cover any of the costs of running even a bus-rail option like a parry people mover as the level crossings still have to be staffed and maintained along with all the other knackered old infrastructure along the line.

hardybuck

foggy_lad wrote: »

Nobody is at fault as you put it. The line just died from lack of interest from local people! There was not and is not enough regular users to cover any of the costs of running even a bus-rail option like a parry people mover as the level crossings still have to be staffed and maintained along with all the other knackered old infrastructure along the line.

I think if you look back and read the initial complaints people had with the service, they complain that it was badly run and badly marketed. Timetabling was a particular issue. Off can't I don't have the times, but I remember that they didn't run trains to allow people working in the city to get a train home after finishing work.

If you are running a shop that opens at times which are inconvenient for the customer, and charge a price for your service which doesn't make it attractive to purchase, you should look at rectifying these two problems before you considering closing the business down completely!

Judgement Day

Something like the NIR Railbus could/should have been tried out to provide a local service but innovation has never featured in CIE since Bulleid left.

Grandeeod

Did anyone honestly think that this cockeyed campaign would yield results? With all due respect to those involved, my own observations over the last year or so clearly lead me to the conclusion that CIE would have an easy ride and they did. I know there is a lot lot of anti rail enthusiast stuff here, but again with respect, my own belief is that some enthusiasts tend to muddy the water somewhat and transform campaigns into farce. This campaigns facebook page became a very sad domain of railfans each trying to demonstrate who was more knowledgeable than the other.

The political side of it was always going one way. A Labour councilor with his party in Government was always just along for an elongated PR ride. The lifting train is next and we know it.

Finally, weren't RUI involved? What's their stance?

Judgement Day

Yeah, Dr.Gleeson was involved but obviously saw the writing on the wall and bailed out years ago. Anyway, with friends like him...:rolleyes:


Here's the latest from RUI (Mark Gleeson)

'There exists a letter (which I haven't seen) which offers basically a 2700 unit and free track access Waterford - Campile 90% of this section is still walked by IE staff and as such is trivial to restart service on

This offer of course is made in the context that Irish Rail know its impossible to put together the legal requirements to accept unless there is a third party holding a EU rail license willing to underwrite. Add to the fact its never been done before means the RSC/NTA/DOT/IE really don't know what to do.

The 2700 units were withdrawn due impending overhaul requirements so not much use if after 6 months they will no longer be considered safe.

Campile was rather neat in the sense you only needed a guard and a driver, no level crossings as far as I remember. Problem was since the station in Waterford was on the live IE network everything had to be done to the full network requirements not the more relaxed heritage rules

Of course regardless you never decline the offer, you play for time.'

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?p=68894#post68894

There speaks a man with years of railway operating experience behind him.

Grandeeod

Judgement Day wrote: »

Yeah, Dr.Gleeson was involved but obviously saw the writing on the wall and bailed out years ago. Anyway, with friends like him...:rolleyes:

That's very disappointing. Perhaps they shouldn't have got involved in the first place considering any attempt to reopen the line or retain a service was always going to be a very tough battle. I feel sorry for the original people who started the campaign. Looks like they were let down by people you wouldn't normally expect to let you down.

Judgement Day

The Facebook page had long ago dissolved into farce with nothing more than pics of ancient steam trains hurtling along long closed lines - fun but completely irrelevant. Somewhere for trainspotters to keep warm. Talk of Parry People Movers etc.etc.....

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

the todd andrews machete train is next and we know it.

fixed that for you.

however its true i'm afraid, even though technically as part of the agreement with the NTA they can't lift it they will however find an excuse and the NTA will let them at it because like any regulator they have no backbone at all, their just there for the pay and the pension.

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

Anyway, with friends like him...

try and suggest something and its always excuses on how it couldn't be done, just like IE.

Judgement Day wrote: »

There speaks a man with years of railway operating experience behind him.

yeah, what a massive success story, didn't he operate the reopened and electrified berma road? oh wait

Jim Martin

Partizan wrote: »

The lifting train will be along in the not so distant future.

This is all very sad - maybe once the recession bites even deeper and more and more will be unable to afford to run their cars, they will have second thoughts about returning to the rails!

purplepanda

So IE offer a railcar saying you can run a service to SWIFT / Save the Rail, knowing full well that nobody in that pressure group has any experience of running a rail related company, generating finance, obtaining public transport company liabilty insurance & obtaining / training staff? :rolleyes:

IE know that SWIFT need an experienced rail operating company on board to stand a chance & those "foreign operators" that have been mentioned in some media reports, whilst remaining nameless, are certainly not in that category. :pac:

I doubt if any local rail pressure group in Europe have succeeded in such as task, even the co-operative groups who have tried to introduce "feeder" commuter services using their local heritage railways connecting with the national network in the UK seem to have been thwarted recently.

Pity the government & IE didn't impose such strict criteria on West on Track, such as independent surveys before rebuild & reopening & telling them to run their own rail operation.

Now we have 6 return trains a day with 9 passengers per train on a WRC ghost railway which has wasted millions & will result in the closure of three regional railways :mad:

dowlingm

Here's what I would seek were I in their position: a quote from IE to provide and operate a DMU service on a 7-day charter basis for a period of one year, so basically like the arrangement with the Ballina freight. It would be up to the local groups in south Wexford to solicit funds from Wexford and Waterford public bodies to underwrite the service so that IE would be guaranteed their payments, and any feeder bus arrangements to widen the catchment. Fares collected would be used to split between the councils pro rata and a suitable marketing and support budget.

After a year the performance could be reviewed. The NTA could be requested to undertake that should audited loads on the service exceed a particular % over the course of the trial period that it would be reinstated into IE's contracted services.

Operating as a "timetabled charter" would force IE to put a specific cost on the service which could be audited for padding. For example, while I don't think the south Wexford service should be subsidised, I think it would be unfair for them to be forced to bear the full incremental cost of returning a 2700 set to service condition. Reshuffling the 2600/2800 fleet and adding a 22000 to the Cork-Tralee service to compensate (after the three remaining sets are commissioned) would likely result in better crew utilisation, since the Waterford-Limerick Junction is a 2800 at present. This insistence on recovering incremental costs is the stance IE took on Foynes but that is fixed, not redeployable infrastructure.

If this train is operated merely as a commuter service without firm integration into the wider timetable I can't see how it succeeds. In particular the train should be timetabled to operate after the evening Dublin trains and late enough to allow southside workers clocking out at 5pm+ to reach the station and thereby avoid one of the major failings of the prior service:


Heuston dep 1510 Waterford arr 1730

• Waterford dep 1740 Campile arr 1805 dep 1810 Waterford arr 1835

Heuston dep 1635 Waterford arr 1900

• Waterford dep 1905 Campile arr 1930 dep 1935 Waterford arr 2000

Heuston dep 1735 Waterford arr 2000

• Waterford dep 2005 Campile arr 2030 dep 2035 Waterford arr 2100

Limerick Junction dep 1850 arr 2028

Heuston dep 1835 Waterford arr 2055

• Waterford dep 2105 Campile arr 2130 dep 2135 Waterford arr 2200

The morning rotations could be:

• Waterford dep 0605 Campile arr 0630 dep 0635 Waterford arr 0700

(dep for Heuston/Carlow/Kilkenny 0710)

• Waterford dep 0705 Campile arr 0730 dep 0735 Waterford arr 0800

(note: current 370 bus dep Campile 0740 arr Waterford Quay 0830)

• Waterford dep 0805 Campile arr 0830 dep 0835 Waterford arr 0900

That does tie up the Belview section for significant stretches which may not be feasible depending on freight movements so one or more of those rotations might have to be done without. There might also be some platform occupancy issues and crewing rest issues I'm not considering.

Ironically if the service was a success then extending it beyond Campile would force a reduction in frequency unless something was done like moving the passing loop and block post from Wellington Bridge to Campile and a second DMU set employed, wrecking the economics of the project. It's a similar dilemma to that regarding extending Midleton to Youghal.

Jamie2k9

I'd keep all the timeing expect the 20.05 departure from Waterford. There would be no demand for all these services to connect form Dublin. The 17.35 from Dublin has poor loads to Waterford compated to the 16.35 and 18.35 services.

Platform problems in Waterford would not be an issue at all and there is no traffic to the port since Ballina liner was dropped and it used to operate through at lunchtime anyway.

dowlingm

Doesn't the Westport timber operate through there? Or is it offloaded in Waterford Yard?

As for the 1635 connection - if one had to be done without fair enough but I would think that a lightly loaded train is the sort of one that you'd like to see people have the option to take in a net-increase situation, as opposed to overstressing existing slammed services.

It would also be nice to see the yawning gap in morning northbound ex Waterford services/lack of a Carlow-Waterford commuter addressed in the new schedule but needless to say am not holding my breath :rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Timber is still offloaded in the yard in Waterford.

Jamie2k9

It would also be nice to see the yawning gap in morning northbound ex Waterford services/lack of a Carlow-Waterford commuter addressed in the new schedule but needless to say am not holding my breath

Indeed a service around 09.00 is badly needed. If the 18.20 was reduced to 3 car and the other 3 are kept to operate the service. Drivers should not be an issue. The 18.20 was a reduced to a 3 car set for a while but was put back to 6 when the 17.35 was extened to Waterford.

Sunday afternoon is in very short suppily of a service. The 13.05 and 15.05 are jammed from Kilkenny and the 18.05 isn't much better recently. Howver I would be happy if the current schedule is kept instead of cutting it. If they do drop a return service I can't see which one they will pick.