Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

Cookie_Monster

There are two sides to that 2% of costs though, yes you have to increase revenue.
But I bet the costs are massivly inflated also, we are dealing with a state, unionised business which will have a lot of fat to cut. I bet a private company could operate that line with 25% of the cost CIE do

Judgement Day

conolan wrote: »

If the service is covering 2% of its costs, then you need 25 fold increase just for it to cover half its costs. No amount of rescheduling or marketing is going to even double the current traffic. Unfortunatly it doesn't serve New Ross or Wexford, where there would be some extra passengers.
But 2% is 2%, which is 98% from taxpayers (which means borrowing).

Well, given that IE are putting it out that there are only 25 passengers a day using the service I shouldn't have thought that doubling it would be very difficult. And, for that matter increasing it 25 fold would only bring numbers up to 625 passengers per day - hardly an insurmountable problem with some connections and marketing. I can well remember in the 1980s the difficulty in getting info and booking tickets from Heuston to Cahir - being told there was no service etc.etc. To this day Dublin/Cork intercity services frequently (in my experience) omit to tell passengers to change for the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line.
The plain fact is that this line has been on a CIE hit list for going on 40 years now and if there not stopped this time....

Mean time we are all being distracted from the also mooted closure of the Ballybrophy/Limerick branch - what a joke. Here in the South East a convenient smokescreen for the rail closure has been the announcement of the withdrawal of 24 emergency helicopter cover for air sea rescue. Now all we need is another earthquake somewhere so that the lazy media can be completly diverted from the liitle ways of Fianna Fail and CIE. :mad:

invinciblePRSTV

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There are two sides to that 2% of costs though, yes you have to increase revenue.
But I bet the costs are massivly inflated also, we are dealing with a state unionised business which will have a lot of fat to cut. I bet a private company could operate that line with 25% of the cost CIE do

A very salient point indeed, but lets say the Gov did privatise rail transport in this country. Would the line be attractive to private operators without offers of large subventions in the form of PSOs and the like?. Whats the profile of south Wexford anyway, is there much commuter traffic into and out of Waterford?.

FlameoftheWest

Judgement Day wrote: »

1. Cancel the Interconnector.

What, for the 3rd time in 30 years?

Judgement Day

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Indeed, a damming case if ever there was one. Even some of the ardent spotters on IRN acknowledge the futility in keeping this line open without the kind of serious allocation of resources required which can be A) better used elsewhere in IR or its financial equivalent better utilised elsewhere in the murky world of the public finances.

As evil as the big bad bogeyman that is IR and its parent company are, has anyone yet suggested practical suggestions where IR should cut costs in order to save the line? (and by that i don't mean pie in the sky cancel the interconnector suggestions).

Quoting the fact that some spotters on IRN think the line should close proves nothing, as some of them never see the inside of a train from one end of the year to the next preferring to look through the lens of a camera and then home in the car. And, yes I offered all sorts of cost savings that could be achieved apart from cancelling the inter-connector. I have been making cost cutting/revenue boosting ideas on other posts too (when I get time away from my Klu Klux Clan activities :rolleyes:) - how about getting rid of all CIE staff cars? Apparently John Lynch has two available at all times.

FlameoftheWest

dowlingm wrote: »

even on IRN some heresy comes out once in a while

That's a crazy group. But that guy makes a valid point. They can't have it all.

Run_to_da_hills

conolan wrote: »

If the service is covering 2% of its costs, then you need 25 fold increase just for it to cover half its costs. No amount of rescheduling or marketing is going to even double the current traffic. Unfortunatly it doesn't serve New Ross or Wexford, where there would be some extra passengers.
But 2% is 2%, which is 98% from taxpayers (which means borrowing).

This was the short sighted mentality of 1960's that shut some of the finest rail lines in the country that would have now thrived as tourist and commuter lines.

invinciblePRSTV

Judgement Day wrote: »

Quoting the fact that some spotters on IRN think the line should close proves nothing, as some of them never see the inside of a train from one end of the year to the next preferring to look through the lens of a camera and then home in the car. And, yes I offered all sorts of cost savings that could be achieved apart from cancelling the inter-connector. I have been making cost cutting/revenue boosting ideas on other posts too (when I get time away from my Klu Klux Clan activities :rolleyes:) - how about getting rid of all CIE staff cars? Apparently John Lynch has two available at all times.

Heil Hitler brother.

So whats your alternative then?

Cut IE staff numbers and perks to keep the token service on the line open?

What needs to be done is to make the line viable, am i correct in saying the lines original function was for a connection to Rosslare and Beet traffic, both of which are now gone/in decline? what replaces this traffic, have the Co.Co's done anything in the past few decades to stimulate population growth on the line? is the population really in place in South Wexford for a viable commuter service?. OAPs on their holidays is all well and good but the line needs people who'll use it all year round in order for it to be saved and this doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This was the short sighted mentality of 1960's that shut some of the finest rail lines in the country that would have now thrived as tourist and commuter lines.

Surely the short sightedness was in ripping up the closed lines. Perhaps closing this line now but keeping the alignment in tact will mean one day, when Rosslare becomes once again a major tourist and freight hub as predicted, and the towns and villages of South Wexford blossom into fully fledged suburbs of greater Waterford, then the line can be re-opened ala Midleton with a super proper commuter service by a private operator in conjunction with regional Government backing?.

Cookie_Monster

a massive import tax on sugar would make the line viable again :pac::pac::pac:

Judgement Day

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Heil Hitler brother.

So whats your alternative then?

Cut IE staff numbers and perks to keep the token service on the line open?

What needs to be done is to make the line viable, am i correct in saying the lines original function was for a connection to Rosslare and Beet traffic, both of which are now gone/in decline? what replaces this traffic, have the Co.Co's done anything in the past few decades to stimulate population growth on the line? is the population really in place in South Wexford for a viable commuter service?. OAPs on their holidays is all well and good but the line needs people who'll use it all year round in order for it to be saved and this doesn't seem to be forthcoming.



Surely the short sightedness was in ripping up the closed lines. Perhaps closing this line now but keeping the alignment in tact will mean one day, when Rosslare becomes once again a major tourist and freight hub as predicted, and the towns and villages of South Wexford blossom into fully fledged suburbs of greater Waterford, then the line can be re-opened ala Midleton with a super proper commuter service by a private operator in conjunction with regional Government backing?.

The Waterford/Rosslare was opened in 1906 to develop passenger traffic from Rosslare Harbour to the South West of Ireland (Killarney, Parknasilla, Waterville etc where the GS&WR had hotels. In latter years the line survived due to the presence of a beet loading facility at Wellington Bridge - it was not an original function of the line as the beet industry didn't start until the late 1920s and the Wellington Bridge depot didn't open until 1979. The fact that CIE did nothing to develop the line has nothing to with its remotness but more to do with their decision many years ago to close all lines not radiating from Dublin.

What is your interest in this line? I know what mine is and I have been banging on about the need to retain it since I left school in 1977. Below the threatened closure of the line is mentioned in a letter that I sent to the Irish Times in December that year.



I think that you should stop hiding and state your interest or are you just here for a five minute argument?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

DWCommuter

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

That's a crazy group. But that guy makes a valid point. They can't have it all.

LOL!

Listen lads. I came into this whole railway business in 2002 when the same lines were proposed for closure. That was at a time when IE passenger numbers were on the up. Investment was at an all time high as well. The closure of Nenagh and Limerick Junct - Rosslare is obviously based on the withdrawal of freight traffic many years ago. The late Seamus Brennan vetoed the move in 2003. It just proves that IE never had any interest whatsoever in developing these lines. Even under On Track 2000 they received no investment.

When the WRC was proposed I made a big song and dance about the fact that the line from Limerick to another Irish CITY was falling asunder. Now we find ourselves in a situation where political interference has delivered a brand new line (wrc) while an operational line has been run into the ground and is heading for the chop. Ditto the Roscrea/Nenagh line.

The root cause of all this is the following;

1. A diabolical rail operator.
2. A diabolical Government that plans transport on the basis of votes and parish pump politics.

In 2004, I did say that the investment of funds in the WRC would be the price paid for a deferral of projects elsewhere and the closure of other lines as the good times would not roll forever. Personally I have no doubt whatsoever that the current economic climate combined with the expected subsidy requirement on the WRC has drilled the final nail into the coffin of these lines, despite CIEs constant wish to see them off anyway. The difference this time is that a minister of transport will not be coming to the rescue and there is no rail lobby with the balls to go on radio and TV and call IE what they are which is this. (and I quote),

" a bunch of incapable semi state morons, devoid of effective management or vision. A company that that even in the goodtimes of heavy investment squandered cash like a cowboy in a las vegas casino. They have systematically failed the concept of railways in this country."

What a joke of a situation. A lovely new line from Limerick to Galway and now the proposed closure of the line between Limerick and Waterford. Only in Ireland.:rolleyes:

For the record, I subscribe to the view that an operating railway with heavy losses should be given every opportunity to succeed before closure is an option. But remember the track laying machinery wasn't seen down that way when we began relaying lines left right and centre. Thats were you'll find the real attitude in all this.

invinciblePRSTV

Judgement Day wrote: »

The Waterford/Rosslare was opened in 1906 to develop passenger traffic from Rosslare Harbour to the South West of Ireland (Killarney, Parknasilla, Waterville etc where the GS&WR had hotels. In latter years the line survived due to the presence of a beet loading facility at Wellington Bridge - it was not an original function of the line as the beet industry didn't start until the late 1920s and the Wellington Bridge depot didn't open until 1979. The fact that CIE did nothing to develop the line has nothing to with its remotness but more to do with their decision many years ago to close all lines not radiating from Dublin.

So my hypotheses is correct then? the line's two main functions are now either gone or in decline. Have there been any attempts by local Gov to develop densities on the line? surely its not up to IR to promote development along the line even if their parent happens to own the port at one end of it.

Judgement Day wrote: »

What is your interest in this line?

Do i have to have a direct stake in this line in order to comment upon it?.

Judgement Day wrote: »

I know what mine is and I have been banging on about the need to retain it since I left school in 1977. Below the threatened closure of the line is mentioned in a letter that I sent to the Irish Times in Decemebr that year.

Nice letter, not sure if i agree with the banning of other modes of transport in competition with the Railways, but then i guess it was the kind of thinking in vogue at the time.

Judgement Day wrote: »

I think that you stop hiding and state your interest or are you just here for a five minute argument?

As always i'm here to learn, nice link btw.

Judgement Day

From Railcargricer1 on IRN today

Also very true points about the operational costs, the barrow bridge is the crux being one of the largest engineering features on the network.

One interesting observation is there are several miles of brand new CWR installed as recently as last year, the running costs of the South Wexford have been much the same for many years, why install such modern high spec low maintenance track one year and then go and try abandon it the following year. From memory it is approx 8 miles of CWR some East of Wellington Bridge and more just West of Rosslare Strand.

It is extremely difficult to see the line surviving but its painful to see a line being killed off when the service remaining is still popular probably more utilised than the Nenagh branch. In my visits to the regional lines last year I frequently was the only traveller on the 1645 Limerick-Ballybrophy, while the 1010 to Limerick ranged from 2-8 passengers. The South Wexford on at least one occasion had over 60 leaving Waterford heading East.

So much for not spending on the PW in recent times.

Southsider1

conolan wrote: »

If the service is covering 2% of its costs, then you need 25 fold increase just for it to cover half its costs. No amount of rescheduling or marketing is going to even double the current traffic. Unfortunatly it doesn't serve New Ross or Wexford, where there would be some extra passengers.
But 2% is 2%, which is 98% from taxpayers (which means borrowing).

But that's exactly the point!! The service should start in Wexford not Rosslare. Then at least you have a solid population base to start with... Anyway, as I stated earlier. Not every service will be a profit maker hence why it's a state company not a private one. If it was a private company they'd probably only operate the Dublin - Cork line and dump the rest?

wild handlin

Judgement Day wrote: »

From Railcargricer1 on IRN today

Also very true points about the operational costs, the barrow bridge is the crux being one of the largest engineering features on the network.

One interesting observation is there are several miles of brand new CWR installed as recently as last year

So much for not spending on the PW in recent times.

I'm afraid to say theres nothing new in that JD.

Sure look at Limerick Junction - Waterford, alot of that is now CWR (Continous Weld Rails) on Concrete Sleepers, not to mention the line from Killonan Jctn - Silvermines Jctn is now completly CWR with the exception of Birdhill - Kilmastulla and Birdhill station!!

DWCommuter

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Even some of the ardent spotters on IRN acknowledge the futility in keeping this line open without the kind of serious allocation of resources required which can be A) better used elsewhere in IR or its financial equivalent better utilised elsewhere in the murky world of the public finances.

As evil as the big bad bogeyman that is IR and its parent company are, has anyone yet suggested practical suggestions where IR should cut costs in order to save the line? (and by that i don't mean pie in the sky cancel the interconnector suggestions).

For a start, what ardent or not, trainspotters think is totally irrelevent. I can guarantee that if this line was the last bastion of freight and loco hauled steam heated carraiges, they would be in uproar. This line no longer offers anything of interest to spotters.

As for suggestions for IE, there's been plenty of them bandied about forums like this and indeed privately compiled reports and all as far back as 2002. History clearly tells us that for over 30 years CIE have wanted to close these lines, even when they where busy freight routes. The only way IE or CIE can be brought to book is through humiliation by virtue of their wreckless approach to running a railway. An approach that is contemptuous and insulting to both the passenger and the taxpayer.

Don't get me wrong. Im not some starry eyed rail lover. I understand the harsh reality of running any loss making business, but lets be honest with ourselves. CIE is wholly incapable of making decisions based on losses. Its all they've ever made. Why?

If these lines had been upgraded and exhausted in terms of timetabling and still continued to leak money, then I happily let them go. Poor businesses with low patronage are brought to success all the time, you have to try. Only after trying and failing can you deem them fit for closure. These lines are not victims of decades of under investment. They are victims of neglect by a rail operator during the wealthiest and busiest time in its history.

dowlingm

Thread started on Nenagh to help keep focus on south Wexford on this one:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855540

conolan

Southsider1 wrote: »

But that's exactly the point!! The service should start in Wexford not Rosslare. Then at least you have a solid population base to start with... Anyway, as I stated earlier. Not every service will be a profit maker hence why it's a state company not a private one. If it was a private company they'd probably only operate the Dublin - Cork line and dump the rest?

Starting it in Wexford would not make a very big difference. I doubt that Wexford-Dublin service is terribly busy, but you can be sure that Wex-Waterford would only carry about 10% of Wex-Dub.

conolan

Also the cost of maintaining this and paying staff to man it every day must be enormous. It opens several times a week for ships going to New Ross and yachts in summer.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/conorireland/3004808653/

Transportuser09

You can see the merits of running the service from Wexford, the train could still serve Rosslare Strand. With railcars a reversal shouldn't take that long. Definetly have a few more runs in between morning and peak to balance the crew requirements better, etc... Its a shame that the line would be allowed to close without any effort to improve by IÉ. I think though the main ways to save this line at the moment, regardless of above, would be to:
1). contact local politicians, as Judgement Day has done.
2). If you can, try to use the line (difficult though the timetable makes it) regularly in the coming weeks, its now or never.

corktina

there cant be many swing bridges still operating around....

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

That's a crazy group.

I wouldn't say IRN is a crazy group. Given some of the posts made in this forum over the last few weeks IRN comes across as pretty sane.

Transportuser09

corktina wrote: »

there cant be many swing bridges still operating around....

Wouldn't say so. The one in Athlone apparently has not been used since the 50s. Not sure if it is still operable. Is the Barrow one the only one still in use?

loyatemu

conolan wrote: »

Starting it in Wexford would not make a very big difference. I doubt that Wexford-Dublin service is terribly busy, but you can be sure that Wex-Waterford would only carry about 10% of Wex-Dub.

this is a good point. IE apparently wanted to mothball Gorey - Wexford in the last threatened round of closures, its not a money-spinner either (not helped by its ludicrously slow running times). The DSER is only "viable" (in rail terms) because of the commuter traffic on its northern section.

Wexford isn't a huge town, and Waterford is a tiny city - there's no revised timetable that's going to generate significant revenue between them on a slow, indirect line that passes through largely empty countryside.

Judgement Day

loyatemu wrote: »

this is a good point. IE apparently wanted to mothball Gorey - Wexford in the last threatened round of closures, its not a money-spinner either (not helped by its ludicrously slow running times). The DSER is only "viable" (in rail terms) because of the commuter traffic on its northern section.

Wexford isn't a huge town, and Waterford is a tiny city - there's no revised timetable that's going to generate significant revenue between them on a slow, indirect line that passes through largely empty countryside.

You're right of course, IE wanted to close south of Arklow (not mothball) and the heavy commuter traffic in the Dublin area does NOT make the railway viable - commuter lines are notoriously unprofitable due to the need for massive amounts of rolling stock, train crews etc that are are only needed for two rush hours daily. However, your attitude to the DSER is the same as IE's - glass half empty as opposed to half full. The Dublin/Rosslare line is one of the most scenic routes in the Bristish Isles excluding the Ffestiniog and some of the Scottish lines but does CIE/IE take advantage of the fact? Someone in there at least used to recognise the fact some years ago as all CIE's poster pics were shot in the Vale of Avoca, Killiney Hill etc.
All sorts of innovative ideas are needed to rejuvenate all the railways - not just the DSER - and tourism is one; Fastrack is another; decent catering (buffet cars); 1st class, variety of services (Dublin/Waterford via Rosslare); proper timetabling with connections; increased frequency of services and the possibility of returning from Waterford to Wexford as most passengers don't want to emigrate......

The facebook page is continuing to grow at a pleasing rate and you may care to have a look here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

Don't forget to sign the petition to the that fool Minister Noel Dempsey.

FlameoftheWest

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I wouldn't say IRN is a crazy group. Given some of the posts made in this forum over the last few weeks IRN comes across as pretty sane.

I have only been reading it for a couple of weeks now but I stopped the other day as it feels really "British" or something. Nothing against the Brits, but the posters all seem to be posting from mostly the UK and the notice board is all about meetings in London and such and such. WTF! One also gets the distinct impression that the entire passenger network could close down as long an there is a log train from Gort to Cahir they would be perfectly contented on IRN. Seems a bit mad to me. Anyways it's boring, difficult to navigate and I got sick of pictures of the same loco like some Page 3 model over and over agin in various poses, so I left.

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

I have only been reading it for a couple of weeks now but I stopped the other day as it feels really "British" or something. Nothing against the Brits, but the posters all seem to be posting from mostly the UK and the notice board is all about meetings in London and such and such. WTF! One also gets the distinct impression that the entire passenger network could close down as long an there is a log train from Gort to Cahir they would be perfectly contented on IRN. Seems a bit mad to me. Anyways it's boring, difficult to navigate and I got sick of pictures of the same loco like some Page 3 model over and over agin in various poses, so I left.

I've been following that site for a while and there are some British posters on it, but a lot of Irish ones as well. A lot of posts on it concern what unit worked what. Personally that doesn't interest me but to have this info up every day many of them must hardly be in the UK unless they do a lot of flying. I've never got the impression that they couldn't care about the passenger network, there is a thread like this one there also. You get sick of pictures of locos, fair enough. I get sick of posters here belittling other groups that don't conform to their view (IRN, IRRS, etc...) as "crazy" etc...

Sorry for veering off topic, but if you can regularly slip in snide comments about other groups in your posts then its only fair that someone else can challenge that point of view.

Transportuser09

Out of interest does anyone here know what loadings are like on the buses between Rosslare and Waterford in terms of passengers just travellling between these locations. (As opposed to going on to Cork or such).

shamwari

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

I have only been reading it for a couple of weeks now but I stopped the other day as it feels really "British" or something. Nothing against the Brits, but the posters all seem to be posting from mostly the UK and the notice board is all about meetings in London and such and such. WTF! One also gets the distinct impression that the entire passenger network could close down as long an there is a log train from Gort to Cahir they would be perfectly contented on IRN. Seems a bit mad to me. Anyways it's boring, difficult to navigate and I got sick of pictures of the same loco like some Page 3 model over and over agin in various poses, so I left.

And where do you get the feeling that most of the posters are from the UK?

And why do I get the feeling you are someone banned from here for, among other things, peddling this sort of irrelevant and distractional nonsense.

Judgement Day

Back on topic here. How about this newscutting from the Irish Times of November 19th 1976 ? The more things change, the more they stay the same!