How do you really feel about religions* athiest minded responses only please *

mewso

Oh just turn the other cheek.

mardybumbum

Tigger wrote: »

with respect i'm the op

Indeed you are. It is easy to forget after 5 or so pages.

i wanted one thread where people could clearly say what they feel about religion as people that think its made up not as pepople that belive in it

And you've got it. As far as i can tell, it has only been the atheists which have responded to your query ( I still don't know which posters are theist/atheist ).
But surely our comments should be open to scrutiny?
It would be a pretty boring thread If we all agreed with eachother.

Tigger

mardybumbum wrote: »

Indeed you are. It is easy to forget after 5 or so pages.


And you've got it. As far as i can tell, it has only been the atheists which have responded to your query ( I still don't know which posters are theist/atheist ).
But surely our comments should be open to scrutiny?
It would be a pretty boring thread If we all agreed with eachother.

the posts i quoted are from thiests

nope it would be a pretty boring forum if we all agreed but this thread was to see how many people feel , as i do , that religion is a good idea (as in giving the masses something to be good for) very poorly executed

answer is few so far but that's cool

Tigger

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats quite uncalled for tbh, but your request is duly noted.

no your interjection was uncalled for but since yer here you should stay

its my opinion that the bible is re-interpereted every so often as are fact and laws
look at jesus he said suffer not the little children didn't he

yet the primate of ireland seems to have interperted that to say when you've found out that a priest is buggering the alterboys you should witness the said alterboys being forced and bullied into silence and then after you yourself have had 35 years to feflect on what you have done say this

‘I was following orders’

now its stuff like this that makes me wish that all that hocus pocus was real
because if jesus was real and his dad / self was the god of the old trestament i'd willingly go to hell to watch.

i cannot believe the urge i have to godwin my own thread

Tigger

JimiTime wrote: »

I seriously don't know what you and Tigger were reading What was I defensive over? How was I not being 'atheist minded'? What did I 'complain' about? I don't mind questions arising from my question, I simply said I would not answer tangeantal questions in respect of the OP's request.

Anyway.....

you believe that daemon possesion happens this means you are not athiestly minded

JimiTime

Tigger wrote: »

you don't rule out that demon possesion CAN happen this means you are not athiestly minded

Ok OP, I've deleted my offending non 'atheist minded' question and related posts, and duly note that when you say 'atheist minded', you simply mean 'atheist only'. Content does not matter its who is posting. Gotcha!

Tigger

JimiTime wrote: »

Ok OP, I've deleted my offending non 'atheist minded' question and related posts, and duly note that when you say 'atheist minded', you simply mean 'atheist only'.

i just used the syntax common to the christian forumb as i wanted to hear without interuption what the athiests really think

JimiTime

Tigger wrote: »

i just used the syntax common to the christian forumb as i wanted to hear without interuption what the athiests really think

You may not be aware of the Christian Syntax then. There are 'Christian Only' threads, which means that only Christians should post. Then there are 'Christian minded' threads, where others can participate, but they must be Christian spirited, i.e. no 'But your God is a yadda yadda', or 'The bible is wrong here yadda yadda'.

monosharp

Tigger wrote: »

i see that in the christianity forum you can do this so i'd like to do it here
if we can just discuss as athiests what we really think

I was completely apathetic, couldn't have cared less what people believed in. I'd even listen to their rants about their make-believe friend without getting annoyed.

Then I moved to Asia and experienced first hand what Christian fundamentalist/extremists are doing here. Here's a summary;

*note: Not all churches force people to do all of the following, what I'm describing is the extremist nonsense, which while a quite large minority follow, it is still not the majority.

- Forcing/Advising people to throw away their traditional cultural heritage because some of it could be viewed as 'not-Christian'. e.g > You shouldn't 'bow' to anyone, you shouldn't honour your ancestors, you shouldn't drink/smoke, you shouldn't use the traditional Lunar calendar (only use western solar calendar), you should use the western age system (they traditionally have a different age system) etc.

- You should have 'Christian names'. This is the stupidest one I've heard, the pastors here tell their congregations that Christian names = English names. How anyone can believe this rubbish is beyond me, even fundamentalists but there you go.

- Most of the top Universities here are Christian and they force students to go to church 2-3 times a week or fail their courses. (5 years ago students had to 'prove' to the schools that they were Christian, usually achieved by bribing a pastor into lying for you).

- Extreme anti-Buddhism mentality, I've never seen anything like the hatred and vile many of these Christians have for Buddhism. Temples burned, crosses sprayed onto ancient priceless buddhist art/temples/monuments. Moderate anti-Catholic/Moderate Christians. Apparently Catholics are nearly as bad as buddhists (I don't understand why) and the mainstream guys are bad because they don't follow the extremist nonsense ideas.

- The current government are also very christian, the president especially is very pro-christian and hows it with his policies.

- Oh and 10% of your salary must go to the church. Yes friends, many of these churches when you join require a direct debit of 10% of your yearly salary goes to the church. (some 5%, 4% etc)

And thats not even mentioning the lunatics walking around on the streets with crosses, loudspeakers and fliers constantly shouting. The most common one to hear is "Believe in Jesus, go to Heaven. Believe in Buddha go to hell.".

They don't try and stop you on the street, they stand in front of you and shove leaflets into your hands. They beg you to come to their church, telling them your already going to another church doesn't work because they think their particular church is the only 'true' one, telling them your buddhist gets you shouted/spat at, telling them you've no religion just makes them follow you.

And these people are everywhere, I know they are still the minority but they are an extremely aggressive, visible minority.

Oh and lastly, many churches here do a lot of good charity work. Then you have the churches where free food/clothing depends on you converting. No convertion, no sandwich.

So while I don't want to 'hate' anyone, I find it increasingly difficult to not despise these people. They are absolutely out of their minds and that'd be fine except they're absolutely out of their minds AND they're making sure they impact everyone else as much as they can.

robindch

monosharp wrote: »

You should have 'Christian names'. This is the stupidest one I've heard, the pastors here tell their congregations that Christian names = English names.

I can't confirm that this is what christian religious leaders are telling their flocks, but amongst the people whom I know here in affluent, middle-class Jakarta, most christians have Western names, and most muslims have Arabic ones. Indonesian names and culture seems to have gone out of fashion faster than the Rubik's cube.

monosharp wrote: »

Then I moved to Asia and experienced first hand what Christian fundamentalist/extremists are doing here.

Are you in South Korea?

monosharp

robindch wrote: »

I can't confirm that this is what christian religious leaders are telling their flocks, but amongst the people whom I know here in affluent, middle-class Jakarta, most christians have Western names, and most muslims have Arabic ones. Indonesian names and culture seems to have gone out of fashion faster than the Rubik's cube.

They honestly, truely seem to think that English names = Christian names.

Here's what I have direct experience of.

Most of them (majority of Christians here, mainstream) think that an English name = a Christian name. Most of them actually know that Jesus and co didn't speak English nor use the latin alphabet but they still think English = Christian for a reason they don't know, and believe me I have asked a thousand times. They really don't know, its just what their pastor tells them.

Even though most of them do know this, they still 'think' the English pronunciation is the 'real' name of people from the Bible.

When I told them something like the following; Saint Paul, (Ancient Greek: Σαούλ (Saul), Σαῦλος (Saulos), and Παῦλος (Paulos); Latin: Paulus or Paullus; Hebrew: שאול התרסי‎ Šaʾul HaTarsi (Saul of Tarsus)

They are genuinely shocked.

Would any Christian (possibly lurking) please explain this to me ?

The minority of Christians, lets call them fundamentalists, are actually many times worse. They 100% believe that "Jesus" was his name and that's how it was spelled and that he spoke English. I am not exaggerating, you can't even imagine how frustrating it is to try and explain to these people politely that they are completely wrong. And what's more, they simply refuse to accept it, I can barely understand not knowing a simple fact such as this but to deny it in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary.

Its absolutely mind boggling. And yes I do realise these people are in the minority and don't reflect mainstream Christians but come on! This is beyond insane. And if anyone wants/needs evidence of this and thinks I'm lying/exaggerating I'm pretty sure a quick google will correct you.

Are you in South Korea?

Yes.

lynski

I have a deep dislike of religions and religious belief in a general sense, but specifically in this country i am appalled on a daily basis by the influence and insidious, criminal nature of the catholic church.
I am also bewildered by the casual attitude of irish people to catholicism - it is just a backdrop to events with no real thought about what they are saying or listening to or the things that catholicism represents. It is because of this that we still have catholic schools and such strong involvement in sports etc
I dont believe you can be truly atheist and be indifferent to the social and political implications of religion.

Tigger

JimiTime wrote: »

You may not be aware of the Christian Syntax then. There are 'Christian Only' threads, which means that only Christians should post. Then there are 'Christian minded' threads, where others can participate, but they must be Christian spirited, i.e. no 'But your God is a yadda yadda', or 'The bible is wrong here yadda yadda'.

ok well i ment agnostics or anyother seem like athiest to me but with some differences should post here but not people who believe in magic etc

JimiTime

Tigger wrote: »

ok well i ment agnostics or anyother seem like athiest to me but with some differences should post here but not people who believe in magic etc

Haha, no bother.

Tim Robbins

Moonsharp, could you not wind them up and tell them they are going to hell? And if they ask you why - just say because you think they are not Christian.

Sam Vimes

Can't post this over in the other forum because it's for christian minded responses only but I just thought this was mildly amusing. From the thread What do you really feel about atheism? *Christian minded responses only*

homer911 wrote: »

What I like about atheists is the fact that they KNOW they are are not going to Heaven - while many nominal Christians believe they probably will

Immediately followed by:

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I feel very sorry for them as I know where they are going for eternity and it isn't fun.

Also, has this guy ever actually talked to an atheist I wonder.......

Ickle Magoo

Having witnessed some of the holier-than-thou ramblings from some who seem to think they are guaranteed a place in heaven for eternity - frankly I can't think of anywhere I'd rather not be...not even for 10mins far less eternity. Can you imagine?! :eek:

mewso

Theres an unbelievable amount of arrogance in that thread which is ironic when most of the gripes they have with us is our arrogance.

When we talk about the non-existence of God I think appearing arrogant to a believer is a natural and unavoidable part of that. "Hes telling me I'm a fool to believe in sky fairies, how arrogant."

When they tell me they pity me because of where I'll end up that is pretty galling. I'm being told by someone whose beliefs are essentially rooted in a book written by men and their own "feeling" that it is true. When I tell them it may be false I'm arrogant. Go figure.

I never really addressed the question of the OP. I am not an activist who wants to bring down religion by any means but it is impossible not to wonder what the world would be like without it. I think if there is some point in the future where religion becomes a minority/fringe group then the journey there will have made us better people.

One thing that always got me was the person with some kind of problem in life who found Jesus and it changed his/her life. I firmly believe that this person has changed his/her life themselves and more people need to find this strength without the aid of bearded men in the sky. That is what I think the future holds. Better adjusted people who are aware of their own inner strength and who value the friends and loved ones around them who can contribute to this strength. Nothing mystical just the ability to fix those problems without needing to believe that Jesus is making it happen and it wouldn't happen without giving your life to him.

bnt

One post in that other thread sort-of sums up the way it's going, in my opinion. It starts with a mangled version of a quotation often mis-attributed to G.K. Chesterton:

The first effect of not believing in God is to believe in anything.
-- Emile Cammaerts, The Laughing Prophet (source)

Cammaerts was writing about Chesterton, and it's more of an amalgamation of various Chesterton utterances. Was he serious or joking? Well, whatever the reasoning, it's just been put out there, without any supporting evidence, like "there are no atheists in foxholes".

Various theists have latched on to this epigram as if it contains some profound wisdom. It's used as a club to swing at atheists, yet there is not the slightest suggestion that it actually reflects reality. It implies a lack of critical thinking among atheists, when (more often than not) it's critical thinking that allows atheism to exist. Yet it sounds good, and suits the theist agenda (to paint atheists as irrational), and so the cliché gets wheeled out, again and again, without a thought or any trace of irony.

In summary: what do theists know about atheists, when all they know about atheists has been hammered in to them by other theists? It's like those people in the USA who get their political views from Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh and make jokes about the "reality-based community". :rolleyes:

Zombrex

mewso wrote: »

Theres an unbelievable amount of arrogance in that thread which is ironic when most of the gripes they have with us is our arrogance.

I don't think it is arrogance, I think it is a defense mechanism coupled with ignorance of the more philosophical foundations of rationality.

Some of them do what they accuse us of doing (and which I'm sure we do as well from time to time), which is constructing a false idea of what we are and believe that fits their narrative, rather than reality.

This is easier than entertaining the idea that we actually might have a point.

To a theist this might sound terrible biased, but we actually have a number of aspects of reason on our side, which theism doesn't (a fact that some theists celebrate because it would be too easy to believe otherwise)

That is simply a fact of their supernatural beliefs. But this puts theism at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to trying to convince others of it's truth. For example they know they can't demonstrate to any scientific standard anything about their beliefs.

So they argue that this doesn't matter, and that it isn't a good enough reason not to believe the supernatural claims of their religion, and that we believe plenty of things we can't demonstrate scientifically and thus are hypocritically and bias singling out religion to reject, not because it cannot be demonstrated but because it causes too much hassle for us to lead moral lives.

Others are more honest, and say that they believe but they don't expect us to believe because they concede their isn't enough reason to based on the standards most of us here hold to.

It is the later types of theists that I have much more time for than those who believe their faith is full of reason and reasonable conclusions.

mewso

Yeah you're right the more I think about it. It's actually more like a genuine pity which is probably what annoys me. As I get older I am definitely getting more intolerant of the religious minded person. It's not arrogance at all. I don't think myself better than them just less willing to accept that people think that way at all.

Like most Atheists here I end up in a Church for Weddings, Funerals and so on and because the gaps in time are longer and longer each time go I find myself more and more aghast at how people still belive this stuff as they stand, kneel, cross themselves, repeat lines they have repeated all their lives. It seems incredibly bizarre now to me that I once did it myself. Maybe that might appear arrogant but I could be at a Satanist Mass and it would seem no more ridiculous.

strobe

mewso wrote: »

I could be at a Satanist Mass and it would seem no more ridiculous.

The music's usually better too.

Zombrex

I obviously can't post this in the Christianity forum cause it will simply be deleted, but I though it was worth posting here Tiggar, it that is alright with you, just to give a bit of perspective

PDN wrote: »

I mean that the majority of posters have refrained from bashing atheism, unlike the mirror thread whereas the following key words cropped up when atheists expressed their views of religion:

silly, dangerous, source of all evil, morons, ridiculous, weak people, bonkers, no logic, crazy, mumbo jumbo, simple minded fools, deluded, narrow minded (ironic or what!), lunatics, no place in modern society, ignorance, idiocy, , dangerous delusion that needs to be removed from society, stain on the human race, gullibility, irrationality, arrogance (more irony!), brainwashed, should be banned from public life, disgusting, vile, sickening.

The most controversial thing in this thread, tbh, is your equating 'Christian' and 'civilised'. :pac:

This thread (which is much shorter than the on in A&A BTW) the following words cropped up when Christians expressed their views of atheism

• loathe
• fundamentalist
• dogmatic
• deluded
• arrogance
• condescension
• superiority complex
• hypocrisy

Isn't randomly picking words out of context without bothering to read the posts they are in fun. Oh yes sir.

I would recommend to anyone thinking of keyword searches that it is better to read a thread properly and understand the context which things were said rather than simply pull out words that you think help your position.

iUseVi

^^ You forgot: irony!

Zombrex

iUseVi wrote: »

^^ You forgot: irony!

Nuts

Anyway, it would be silly to extrapolate something about Christianity from the views of one Christian, so this post doesn't have a lot of relevance to this topic, I just couldn't think of anywhere else to put it.

robindch

Wicknight wrote: »

I just couldn't think of anywhere else to put it.

There's a link from the other thread, and that's good, but in this thread, there are personal comments about moderation in the Other Forum which are best left out.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

There's a link from the other thread, and that's good, but in this thread, there are personal comments about moderation in the Other Forum which are best left out.

Apologies, will delete references to specific individuals

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

I obviously can't post this in the Christianity forum cause it will simply be deleted, but I though it was worth posting here Tiggar, it that is alright with you, just to give a bit of perspective



This thread (which is much shorter than the on in A&A BTW) the following words cropped up when Christians expressed their views of atheism

• loathe
• fundamentalist
• dogmatic
• deluded
• arrogance
• condescension
• superiority complex
• hypocrisy

Isn't randomly picking words out of context without bothering to read the posts they are in fun. Oh yes sir.

I would recommend to anyone thinking of keyword searches that it is better to read a thread properly and understand the context which things were said rather than simply pull out words that you think help your position.

Wicknight, that is one of the most blatantly dishonest pieces of flim-flammery I have ever seen you try to pull on these boards.

I didn't use a keyword search. I did read the A&A thread and tried to be as careful as possible in selecting words that were applied to religion or Christianity in general, taking them in context.

You, however, listed words that were prefaced by posters stating that they had no problem with atheists in general, but that a minority (the more fundamentalist variety) came across badly. The one exception was where a poster used the word 'loath' (and I wouldn't expect anything different from that extremely dogmatic Catholic).

You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Anyone who reads the two threads can see that any comments made about atheism on the Christianity thread are extremely mild compared to the bile and vitriol in this thread.

Ickle Magoo

Surely their very nature dictates there is a greater range of descriptions available for people who are prepared to believe in something without evidence Vs those who lack belief due to insufficient evidence...and it's difficult to have anything against anyone who doesn't actually have an ethos or directive...

iUseVi

Maybe any difference between the two threads is indicative of the difference between atheism and a pervasive belief system like Christianity.











The difference is my spell checker insists on capitalising Christianity.

EDIT: Ickle Magoo beat me to it, but theres a few other differences too......