Is it time to cull the welfare state?

Millicent

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Ive been through it myself. It takes iron will, but it can be beaten.

She's hopefully over the worst but I appreciate it.:)

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Cull was a rather poor choice of words. Slash/Cut/Reduce would have sufficed.

Reducing it would make sense. TBH, I know whole families who are welfare scroungers who have nothing wrong with them. It sickens me, same as it does most people, that taxes are being paid out to these people. They know the system and they know how to work it and it is terrible. I have no problem with a work programme being implemented so that people who are perfectly abled can earn a living. (There is still the risk that such a programme would be used to replace contract skilled staff on decent wages which I have heard of lately so it would need to be regulated.)

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

We can play the blame game all day. That doesnt alter the fact that we are slowly creeping towards financial ruin. Now is the time for a contingency plan for the future.

And the contigency should be greater efficiency of services with less monetary wastage. Seriously, this country is amazing for the amount it wastes on substandard government services.

Would you believe, I knew a guy whose job (whose sole source of income) was fixing governmental mistakes? Seriously, his job entailed sorting out the mess caused by the Luas and the Port Tunnel. I mean, c'mon! How inefficient can a country be that it actually has to employ someone to fix their fcuk ups?! He was being paid handsomely for it too.

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The money will eventually run dry, Milli. Sooner rather than later. The Department of Finance is expecting 34 billion in tax returns. My calculator says they wont break 29.

I don't know that the money will run dry. It will always be sourced from somewhere and with the EU, we won't be allowed to flounder as we might on our own but I think we need a cultural change, where the sort of "Jack the lad" scheming and scamming is not allowed and where we demand better standards of the government we have elected.

IrishManSaipan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is there an Irish version of this. :eek:

Yup. We are in a worse financial predicament.

http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php

IrishManSaipan

Confab wrote: »

Great idea. Stop the government from pumping money into a failing economy. The economy shrinks further, more job losses and so on in an infinite loop. I suggest Economics 101, OP.

More barstool education.

Ive no interest in Wiki.

Square this circle for me. How can a small country of 4 million continue to borrow 500 million per week, pay out nearly a billion each week in welfare and balance the books?

A few years ago the states tax intake was 48 billion. By the end of next year it will be half that, if not worse. Ireland is still in ostrich mode.

Are you another one who subscribes to the belief that the state has an infinite capacity to pay the welfare bill?

Gang of Gin

Millicent wrote: »

Because (and the serious answer here), not all us students are "p*ssing some of our grant money up against the wall", because I was born intelligent but not privileged, because I work my arse off in part-time work to suplement myself to the detriment of my studies sometimes, because believe it or not, not all us students drink, because the alternative is to foster a culture of elitism where the rich class remains the ruling class, where nobody has the opportunity to elevate themselves above their caste, because babies need to be fed as do older children (and heck even teenagers and adults) and because poverty increases crime.

How about, in times of prosperity, the government could have the foresight to maybe put away some of the incredible revenue they receive and not use it to line their own pockets and bulk up the earnings of their chums? So that when my boyfriend is made redundant or my mother is while she is being treated for breast cancer, they won't have idiots on internet fora questioning whether they should receive the money to feed and house themselves.

By all means investigate the scammers but don't even suggest culling the benefits of those whose wellbeing the welfare system was designed to protect.

Well said. Most, when they think of people on the dole, the kneejerk offering is always a reference to it being pocketmoney for alcohol. F**k the f**k off with these facile, short-sighted comments.
I've had the misfortune to lose a good job and I don't waste the few quid I receive weekly on drink etc.
I understand many do abuse the system, but I'm sure many of the population who found themselves in this situation in the last year or so have been looking for work in earnest and it's insulting to make sneid associations.

starviewadams

Eh no,where I live things are bad enough with people receiving welfare,I dont want to see what would happen if it's 'culled'.

More training places that will lead to actual jobs should be created and people with poor standards of education should be encouraged back into the classroom.

IrishManSaipan

starviewadams wrote: »

Eh no,where I live things are bad enough with people receiving welfare,I dont want to see what would happen if it's 'culled'.

More training places that will lead to actual jobs should be created and people with poor standards of education should be encouraged back into the classroom.

Things will continue to get worse. Eventually the state will run out of money.

If anybody can come up with a solution as to how the state can continue to pay the welfare bill whilst balancing the books, please, the floor is all yours.

IrishManSaipan

Gang of Gin wrote: »

Well said. Most, when they think of people on the dole, the kneejerk offering is always a reference to it being pocketmoney for alcohol. F**k the f**k off with these facile, short-sighted comments.
I've had the misfortune to lose a good job and I don't waste the few quid I receive weekly on drink etc.
I understand many do abuse the system, but I'm sure many of the population who found themselves in this situation in the last year or so have been looking for work in earnest and it's insulting to make sneid associations.

Please stop putting words into my mouth. I am well aware that there are some very hard working and well educated people on the dole. Thats not my point.

I am asking how can we continue to afford to pay our ever expanding welfare bill?

southsiderosie

Cap lifetime state benefits at five years.

Introduce a debit card/food stamp system with purchasing restrictions.

Reduce child benefits for each additional child.

Introduce university fees, and make low-interest loans and/or work-study easily available.

Stop dis-incentivizing marriage through excessive single parent benefits.

Millicent

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Things will continue to get worse. Eventually the state will run out of money.

If anybody can come up with a solution as to how the state can continue to pay the welfare bill whilst balancing the books, please, the floor is all yours.

Why have you not considered my point? That we are generally wasteful in office and in our services? Why not call the government to task for its sheer disregard for efficiency and proper money management? And why not have them reduce all their benefits while we're at it? Christ knows, they really don't need it all.

squod

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Ive no interest in Wiki.

Square this circle for me. How can a small country of 4 million continue to borrow 500 million per week, pay out nearly a billion each week in welfare and balance the books?

A few years ago the states tax intake was 48 billion. By the end of next year it will be half that, if not worse. Ireland is still in ostrich mode.

Are you another one who subscribes to the belief that the state has an infinite capacity to pay the welfare bill?

We each paid taxes of €15,000000/anum? Sh1t I'm totally checking my payslip in future!

IrishManSaipan

Millicent wrote: »

Why have you not considered my point? That we are generally wasteful in office and in our services? Why not call the government to task for its sheer disregard for efficiency and proper money management? And why not have them reduce all their benefits while we're at it? Christ knows, they really don't need it all.

I want to concentrate on one topic, for now. I plan to start a thread containing my ten point plan over the next week or so.

southsiderosie

Millicent wrote: »

Why have you not considered my point? That we are generally wasteful in office and in our services? Why not call the government to task for its sheer disregard for efficiency and proper money management? And why not have them reduce all their benefits while we're at it? Christ knows, they really don't need it all.

But the government is never really punished by voters for its behavior in office. FF has led the government over 70% of the time since the 1930s. So why in the world would they care about being accountable? People will vote for them anyway.

And let me note, I'm not aiming this comment at you; I'm just amazed that the current government is still in office, and that the Irish public has generally swallowed what they've been given without making too much of a fuss. No fuss = no reform.

Millicent

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I want to concentrate on one topic, for now. I plan to start a thread containing my ten point plan over the next week or so.

But this is the topic- how to counteract the deficit in revenue as opposed to the growing welfare bill. I'm offering a solution that does not penalise those who can't afford it and which could go a long way to saving the country the money it desperately needs.

IrishManSaipan

squod wrote: »

We each paid taxes of €15,000000/anum? Sh1t I'm totally checking my payslip in future!

I suggest you invest in a new calculator.

Four goes into forty eighth, twelve times. Not fifteen.;)

Millicent

southsiderosie wrote: »

But the government is never really punished by voters for its behavior in office. FF has led the government over 70% of the time since the 1930s. So why in the world would they care about being accountable? People will vote for them anyway.

And let me note, I'm not aiming this comment at you; I'm just amazed that the current government is still in office, and that the Irish public has generally swallowed what they've been given without making too much of a fuss. No fuss = no reform.

This is exactly my point! (Thank you for picking up on it.:) ) If this were France, perhaps, or many other European countries, there would be riots by now. It just amazes me that none of the reports in the press of wastefulness really started 'til after the recession was in full swing. Why as a country do we not demand that our politicians and senior civil servants me accountable to us?

It's too easy to scapegoat people who had no part in bringing around the near collapse of the economy and it achieves nothing.

squod

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I suggest you invest in a new calculator.

Four goes into forty eighth, twelve times. Not fifteen.;)

What percentage of the population is over eighteen? New calculator IrishManSaipan?

BigEejit

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Is there an Irish version of this. :eek:

Before and after the Bail outs :eek:

Christ on a stick that is scary. Notice the third number in at the top, national debt per taxpayer $114k.

Pity the Irish one is apparently just trying to line up private businesses to either get Ireland out of the shíthole it is in, or more likely completely finish it off.

It would be interesting the see the Irish national debt per taxpayer.

IrishManSaipan

BigEejit wrote: »

It would be interesting the see the Irish national debt per taxpayer.

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_deb_ext_percap-economy-debt-external-per-capita

This was during the "good times".

Liamario

It's always the people on their high horses who have never been in the situation that have such radical ideas. You make it sound so easy.... you're damn wrong

BigEejit

W
T
F

How the hell did that happen? I'm gobsmacked by that....

And it also says Irelands external debt is 1.8 trillion dollars .... why does the Irish one say €78 billion. Is that just since this morning or something?

punchdrunk

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

The welfare state is dead, we are just flogging its dead carcase.

Why should the working man get up each morning, subsidise the banker in the merc, the doler next door having his daily lie in and the hungover student who is sauntering home after p*ssing some of his grant money up against the wall?

After all this hes lucky if he has the price of a beve.

I have no idea who you are,but I hate you

IrishManSaipan

Liamario wrote: »

It's always the people on their high horses who have never been in the situation that have such radical ideas. You make it sound so easy.... you're damn wrong

Sound.

How are we going to continue to pay the ever expanding welfare bill?

Millicent

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Sound.

How are we going to continue to pay the ever expanding welfare bill?

Am I gonna have to start quoting myself?

IrishManSaipan

BigEejit wrote: »

W
T
F

How the hell did that happen? I'm gobsmacked by that....

And it also says Irelands external debt is 1.8 trillion dollars .... why does the Irish one say €78 billion. Is that just since this morning or something?

The IFSC would account for 30% of the external debt figure.

Millicent

Millicent wrote: »

Am I gonna have to start quoting myself?

It would appear, yes.

IrishManSaipan

Millicent wrote: »

It would appear, yes.

If you feel your off topic issues are being ignored, fire up a thread.:)

Millicent

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

If you feel your off topic issues are being ignored, fire up a thread.:)

I am not off topic. You asked did people think the welfare system should be cut to save the country money and I proposed a more realistic way to save money that would not impact the people on welfare who are genuine cases. You then asked other people for ways to cut the shortfall in revenue versus welfare payouts without discussing my point.

I'd say that's fairly on topic, no?

ScissorPaperRock

This whole neo-liberal agenda is not really relevant now. More to the point is the fact that wherever the policies of such an agenda have been implemented, they have resulted in greater divisions between the rich and the poor. That's the last thing the country needs.

Maybe, when we're back on our feet, we can start asking questions about how to better spend public money, including welfare. But right now cutting social welfare off is not feasible.

What we really need to be looking at is whether the government's job creation policies are working. This is what matters now, we need to create jobs.

I for one believe that the government is entirely incompetent in this regard. Focusing efforts and investment towards select few multinational corporations isn't a development policy, it's a joke. These companies can pack up and leave at any time - amongst countless other reasons.

Instead of having a bunch of headless chickens all cooped up in Dublin planning all the regional development policy the government needs to decentralise. Give real authority and powers to local and regional bodies who are aware of local and regional resources, and who can bring people, businesses, educational institutions etc together, to spark indigenous Irish industries, that through networking and coordination are capable of competing in global markets.

This is what needs to happen, but the current government is incapable of this kind of planning.

nazman

cull is a very poor choice of words.
means kill, animal connotations.
lets not kill the poor and use them for meat.
let's make some changes instead.

IrishManSaipan

nazman wrote: »

cull is a very poor choice of words.
means kill, animal connotations.
lets not kill the poor and use them for meat.
let's make some changes instead.

I agree, it was a poor choice of wording on my part.

My point still remains.

How are we going to continue to pay the welfare bill?

Any ideas, Nazman?