Is it time to cull the welfare state?

stovelid

A good start would be if the people who detest social welfare could sign an affadavit saying they will never comproimise their principles by drawing it down, not matter what their personal circumstances are.

Truley

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

How about 'welfare recipient' tatooed across their foreheads? Oooh oooh we could have special communal areas for them to hang out! Away from the rest of us 'normies' as we will be known. And I suppose whe should have some sort of committee who makes the decisions on what 'treats' they are allowed have that week. A packet of rich tea this week I think ...

IrishManSaipan

hooradiation wrote: »

Come on, where the hell is it?

Or is it just another thread with un-sourced figures and the same boilerplate talking points like every other one of these cunting threads?

You are a very angry person, young hoor. I will post it up in due course.

DrumSteve

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

IrishManSaipan

DrumSteve wrote: »

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

This isnt an "all dolers are scroungers thread". This is a how the phuc can we continue to pay the welfare bill thread.

orourkeda

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I would like to start a discussion on the viability of the Irish welfare state if I may.

I believe as a country, we have two choices. Either enter debt enslavement for eternity or stand on our own two feet. The country is borrowing 500 million each and every week, just to keep the show on the road. The Department of Finance predicts it will take in 34 billion euro in tax revenue. My calculator says it wont break 29. This is simply unsustainable.

The sense of entitlement in this country is unbelievable. From farmers to bankers. From students to politicians. They seem to think the state is their personal cash cow.Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

Firstly, I think we can safely assume that you are not unemployed.

Secondly, what are are unemployed people supposed to live on and what have they been paying their taxes for.

Genuine people dont choose unemployment and fraudsters should be prosecuted. simple. How is someone supposed to stand on their own two feet if they have nothing to go to.

It's not much of a choice. We either balance the books or leave almost half a million people on the verge of homelessness or bankruptcy.

dvpower

__________ wrote: »

I would actually be in favour of the voucher system previously mentioned for dole recipients. But the question of which supermarket to award the contract to, and those raising their prices and creating unfair competition would potentially be an issue.

An alternative would be to supply the people directly with basic necessities sourced directly from the manufacturers. E.g. you go to the dole office each week and collect 1 loaf of bread, 2.5kg bag of potatoes, 500g butter, 1 pack of 4 toilet rolls, etc. Then maybe a small treat (something different) each week like a box of pringles one week, a packet of bourbon creams the next week, and so on.

Hands up. Whose for soup kitchens and workhouses?

DrumSteve

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

This isnt an "all dolers are scroungers thread". This is a how the phuc can we continue to pay the welfare bill thread.

having wasted 10 minutes of my life reading this thread i can see that the usual ****e was being bandied about including at 1 stage the need for a helicopter to hover outside and take them all out... i mean wtf?

I do agree with the initial sentiment though. The welfare situation needs to be looked at but in a way that isn't gonna ruin the the (non)working class.

dvpower

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

This always gets reduced to cutting payments for people on the dole.

Would people who advocate this also advocate cuts to other social welfate benefits like the state pension, child benefit, free travel for pensioners...

How about cutting other state provided benefits like free education, the health service...

While we're at it, should we cut tax reliefs like the PAYE credit?

stovelid

Also, the assumption that welfare needs to be looked at assumes that we pay taxes to directly beneift ourselves, rather than toward soceity in general. This doesn't take into account that many other taxpayers (like myself) don't actually mind paying for a welfare system.

Taking the point further, other citizens then have the right to take umbrage with their taxes being spent on things that opponents of the welfare system feel are necessary.

Dublin Hibby

FFS, anyone out there with an original thought. Do you really believe that the cost of the welfare state is responsible for the keek we find ourselves in.

Dont believe the spin, 54 billion put aside for nammby pammby NAMA, somewhere in the region of a further 300 billion in toxic debt hiding just over the horizon.

The govement want the moral majority to look upon welfare claimants and public sector workers as spongers, who are responsible in some way for the feckin mess they created.

Goverment minister retires due to ill health payoff :

70,000 annual ministerial pension
45,000 annual TD pension
150,00 one off lump sum

FFS, cut these bastards pay and conditions before anything else

ricman

FOR a couple that has 2 kids the payment is too high,theres no point in working ,cos you get more on welfare,the payment should be 26k max if you have 2 kids.
AND theres people coming over here ,from england once a month collecting the dole.There needs to be more checks on rent allowance ,its too easy to defraud the system
THE CIVIL SERVICE PENSION is a form of welfare,the pensions are too high, there should be a law ,you can claim 1 pension thats it.
THE government is borrowing billions to pay out 4 pensions, its crazy economics.
THE pension system was designed when tax revenue was twice what it is now, ie 20billion, versus 50billion.
THERE should be a limit of 60k on anyone s pension from the government.

IrishManSaipan

stovelid wrote: »

Also, the assumption that welfare needs to be looked at assumes that you apportion your taxes to directly beneift yourself whch doesn't take into account that other taxpayers (like myself) don't mind paying for a welfare system.

Whether or not you mind your taxes being spent on welfare is irrelevant. The state is in financial ruin. It cannot afford to continue to pay the welfare bill.

See my signature. Add about 3.8 billion euro to that by the end of the year in form of interest payments. Thats about a grand interest on every man, woman and child. A millstone around their necks for ever.

Welcome to eternal debt enslavement.

dvpower

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

FFS, anyone out there with an original thought.

I think we're about to hear one:)

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Do you really believe that the cost of the welfare state is responsible for the keek we find ourselves in.

Its not 'responsible', but it is a major element of current expenditure and so a major element of our deficit

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Dont believe the spin, 54 billion put aside for nammby pammby NAMA, somewhere in the region of a further 300 billion in toxic debt hiding just over the horizon.

Yes. That's also a big problem
(where is that original thought)

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

The govement want the moral majority to look upon welfare claimants and public sector workers as spongers, who are responsible in some way for the feckin mess they created.

That's more of a rant than an original thought.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Goverment minister retires due to ill health payoff :

70,000 annual ministerial pension
45,000 annual TD pension
150,00 one off lump sum

FFS, cut these bastards pay and conditions before anything else

What? Thats it?
I thought we were going to get something original and it turned out to be just another daft rant against an ex-minister's payoff.

(Hint: Don't start your post with an insult, if you've got nothing much to add yourself.)

Dublin Hibby

DV, thanks for that. The idea is, stop believing the bull****.

Millicent

I actually have an idea for this thread. Hope it's on topic Irishman... :P

There is a mass of unfinished and unsold houses in this country, lying empty because the companies who were building them (and who helped the arse fall out of the market to begin with the unsustainable development) have gone belly up. A large contributor to the social welfare bill is rent allowance. Why not have the government buy up these vacant and finished properties at a greatly reduced cost, employ some of the unemployed construction workers to finish them (which would help fuel the economy as increased wage promotes increased spending) and clear some of the backlog of the council list? They could give these to rent allowance recipients at a low rate with the option to buy out the property when the market picks up and people get back on their feet.

This way, the government saves some of the cost of rent allowance and the bust companies can go some way to paying off their debts. Just an idea.

Elenxor

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

I would like to start a discussion on the viability of the Irish welfare state if I may.

I believe as a country, we have two choices. Either enter debt enslavement for eternity or stand on our own two feet. The country is borrowing 500 million each and every week, just to keep the show on the road. The Department of Finance predicts it will take in 34 billion euro in tax revenue. My calculator says it wont break 29. This is simply unsustainable.

The sense of entitlement in this country is unbelievable. From farmers to bankers. From students to politicians. They seem to think the state is their personal cash cow.Is it time to cull the welfare state? If not, how do we continue to pay for it?

How many Investment Bankers, Property Developers, TD's Ect., were on Welfare while this Country was being bankrupted?
None!!!! But blame the poor..why not! We don't have the B***s to to say it like it is!!!

Dublin Hibby

DV, i will start my posts as i see fit. It will provide you with the opportunity to cut them up and make yourself look clever. Your ideas for a fair and equal response to the current difficulties are?

When the money was in abundance the profits were "privatised", marginalised communities saw little or nothing of the Celtic tiger.

Now the country is bankrupt, the debt has been "nationalised"

The moral test of government is how it treats those who
are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight
of life, the aged; and those in the shadows of life, the sick, the
needy and the handicapped." Hubert H. Humphrey.

Instead our leaders blame and shame these sections of society.

Not much leadership being shown in relation to the above, instead we begin a process of blame and death by a thousand cuts. Ordinary citizens are following the spin and turning on each other, just what the Grunts in power want.

ScissorPaperRock

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Whether or not you mind your taxes being spent on welfare is irrelevant. The state is in financial ruin. It cannot afford to continue to pay the welfare bill.

See my signature. Add about 3.8 billion euro to that by the end of the year in form of interest payments. Thats about a grand interest on every man, woman and child. A millstone around their necks for ever.

Welcome to eternal debt enslavement.

We have no choice but to pay the social welfare. We need people to keep spending, and we need to avoid creating further class division.


To cover the bill we need to create jobs. I already said this but you haven't addressed it. Creating jobs means less people who require social welfare, and more revenue to be able to afford it. So more revenue is generated, and there are less people to hand it out to. Win win.

Kent Brockman

Defined benefit pensions are no longer viable. The company I work for was bought out a few years ago and this was the first thing that was changed, to defined contribution.
We fought tooth and nail to no avail. Makes sense though, money cnt be made appear from thin air and its our children and grandchildren who will carry the massive burden of trying to provide for those on defined benefit pensions.

(maybe this could be one of your 10 points? )

Dublin Hibby

As a non national, living in Ireland for the past 10 years i am astonished at the lack of any kind of co-ordinated response to the bull**** that is being spread across the mainstream of society.

I know there is a need for reform in the public sector and the attitude that "we are owed something". However, the current ijiots responsible for this would have a job organising a riot.

They made a berrtie blunt of it in the good times, what chance do they have in the bad times.

The lie that the banks need propping up to the tune of 54 billion is an absolute belter. In the USA over 100 banks have gone to the wall over the past 18 months, the USA is still there.


Use the 54 billion to stimulate the economy with national infrastructe programmes, by buiding roads, rail, schools etc.

I also like the posters idea about empty houses and them being used as a resource whilst making some money.

dvpower

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

DV, i will start my posts as i see fit.

You do that.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

It will provide you with the opportunity to cut them up and make yourself look clever.

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Your ideas for a fair and equal response to the current difficulties are?

I'm not looking for a fair and equal response. I'm looking for an effective response.
I don't care so much who got us into the current difficulties. If it would help lift the national mood, we could always take a few bankers and developers and hang them from the top of the portico of the GPO. So long as we can then move on and deal with the problem, namely the massive current account deficit.

What I think we ought to do:
Cut unemployment payments modestly, say 5%.
Cut long term unemployment payments by more, say 10-15%.
Cut pension payments modestly, say 5%.
Means test the medical card for pensioners.
Further cuts to public sector pay at the top levels.
Freeze public sector pay (including increments).
Massive reform program in the public services.
Privatisation program of many government services.
Cut numbers in the public sector.

dvpower

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

Use the 54 billion to stimulate the economy with national infrastructe programmes, by buiding roads, rail, schools etc.

The 54bn doesn't exist. It is borrowed.
Moreover, it is borrowed for the specific purpose of the banking sector bailout. It is not available for a stimulus package. If we went to the markets looking to borrow 54bn for a stimulus package, we wouldn't be able to raise it at the low rate that we are getting the NAMA money at.

hooradiation

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

You are a very angry person, young hoor. I will post it up in due course.

No you won't.
I doubt we ever see anything substantive from you.


Also, "young hoor"?
Does anyone want to translate that into English for me?

Tigger

DrumSteve wrote: »

god forbid any of you should lose your jobs and draw the dole. Not everyone that is on it is a scrounger. a lot of good people were forced into this situation by forces outside their control.

so if you lose your job that one thing
its the ones that were already long term in feb 09 when the emergency budget came in that said in 10 months time , dec 09 the bonus week would not happen

10 months time and yet they were convinced that they'd be still on the dole cos otherwise iot wouldn't have affected them

i was ade redundant by this recession i had a job 2 weeks later. i didn't even bother signing on i just spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week honestly working to get a job
how any people on the dole can say they spen eevn 20 hours a week looking for work really looking networeking and trying to get work

i had a guy ij here one day
guy: hi i'm unemployed fot the last month due to redundancy have you any job i could do?
me: no sorry

guy: do you have any friends or do you know of anywhere that might give me a lead to getting a job
me : well if thats yer attitude here is a list of names email addresses and some phone numbers of people wh like grafters

a mate who has a shop rang me a week later telling me he'd took yer man on and that he was indeed a grafter

i hopnestly challange anyone who is being critical of the thinking here to tell me that more than 5% of the unemployed on job seekers take that attitude

punchdrunk

Tigger wrote: »

so if you lose your job that one thing
its the ones that were already long term in feb 09 when the emergency budget came in that said in 10 months time , dec 09 the bonus week would not happen

10 months time and yet they were convinced that they'd be still on the dole cos otherwise iot wouldn't have affected them

i was ade redundant by this recession i had a job 2 weeks later. i didn't even bother signing on i just spent 8 hours a day 5 days a week honestly working to get a job
how any people on the dole can say they spen eevn 20 hours a week looking for work really looking networeking and trying to get work

i had a guy ij here one day
guy: hi i'm unemployed fot the last month due to redundancy have you any job i could do?
me: no sorry

guy: do you have any friends or do you know of anywhere that might give me a lead to getting a job
me : well if thats yer attitude here is a list of names email addresses and some phone numbers of people wh like grafters

a mate who has a shop rang me a week later telling me he'd took yer man on and that he was indeed a grafter

i hopnestly challange anyone who is being critical of the thinking here to tell me that more than 5% of the unemployed on job seekers take that attitude

Tigger i admire your tenacity at finding a job,fair play to you

I also agree that long term unemployment is a huge problem,and that it along with people on disability benefits should be reviewed and assessed as to whether these people truly are seeking/are genuinely unable to work

but a major part of the problem is people had large mortgages,given by banks on the basis of the salaries they had,they had credit cards with limits through the roof,for alot of people going out and taking any job they can get simply isn't going to be enough to repay these debts any way you slice it

randylonghorn

moonpurple wrote: »

the army equestrian school

Off topic I know, but the army equestrian school has basically operated as a marketing unit for the horse-breeding industry in Ireland, and unlike most such more overt quangos has actually been reasonably effective as such. I wouldn't begrudge the spend on that, but I would question whether the state gets enough revenue back from that sector.

pickarooney wrote: »

A good oul' war should sort us out. Maybe against New Zealand.

Jeez, we'd be surrendering within days! We might manage the Faroe Islands ... :pac:

ricman wrote: »

THE CIVIL SERVICE PENSION is a form of welfare,the pensions are too high, there should be a law ,you can claim 1 pension thats it.
THE government is borrowing billions to pay out 4 pensions, its crazy economics.

Civil and indeed public servants only get one pension, what are you on about?

TD's and senators seem to get several all right, but it doesn't go down the line.

dvpower wrote: »

I thought we were going to get something original and it turned out to be just another daft rant against an ex-minister's payoff.

Why is it a daft rant? I've nothing against Martin Cullen, but why does he need a pension of €105,000? Why does anyone, TD, banker or candlestick-maker?

thetonynator

Dublin Hibby wrote: »

In the USA over 100 banks have gone to the wall over the past 18 months, the USA is still there.

.

Are there 100 banks in the USA???

Maybe 100 bank branches:P

randylonghorn

thetonynator wrote: »

Are there 100 banks in the USA???

Maybe 100 bank branches:P

According to the FDIC, there were 8,430 FDIC-insured commercial banks in the United States as of August 22, 2008.

Gannicus

I tell you all. I have the answer right now simple easy steps...

1. tighter means testing: you live with ma and da, no kids, €50 a week no more.
2. all recipients do charity work 15-20 hours a week in a hospital or cleaning our streets. make the country a little nicer and ease the strain of the medical profession. if you don't show up you don't get paid like a real job. anyone under 25 does one night over the weekend.
3. caught fiddling the welfare the baillifs show up and repo you're stuff.
4. work placement. fás find you a job you dont take it or last more than a year in it ie get sacked or quit (excluding redundancies). you don't get welfare for 12 months after then you go back to the job queue in fás and start again.
5. 3 tax brackets 20% 40% and for those over €200k a year 55%
6. rent allowance 50% of the rent for the year not 75% (depending on local council) stop people getting gafs just because they have a kid(s) when they can clearly stay at home.
7. medical card. subscriptions charge €5.
8. let them take a language class. increase our abilities to compete in a worldwide market. we have the worst rate of multilingual people per capita in europe.

Son Of A Vidic

We might be better of 'culling' the bankers, since their criminal incompetence put us all in this hole.

Alessandra

If we sack all the Government I think we'd probably be grand. An anarchic state would probably be better than what we have currently in place.

Pherekydes

You're worried about some people who are living hand to mouth?

HELLO! Sean Fitzpatrick borrowed 70 mill and he ain't paying it back.

Big Steve

Big Steve wrote: »

I have the answer right now

Ah, in fairness now... You don't.

Grimreaper666

The economy needs to be stimulated to get things rolling again, be a further cut in VAT or whatever, we can see the difference it made recently when everyone flocked up north to do their shopping and our shower just stood and watched businesses go out of business and rattled on about patriotic duty and the like, instead of trying to save what they had. I'd sooner get something back in taxes than nothing back if nothing's happening. It's such a big deal when they announce a hundred jobs but are nowhere to be found when a thousand jobs are lost.
It would be a big help if our government did a decent weeks work for a very decent weeks pay and expenses. A five day working week with clock in, clock out, like the rest of us mere mortals would be a good start, production related pay would be another good one. They should be leading by example. And the idea of f*cking off for a month or two at Christmas, summer and two whole weeks for Paddys day beggers belief!!!! We need a decisive government to lead by example not a bunch of part timers on the take at every available opportunity and tipping off their buddies what and what not to get involved in. It really is no wonder we're in such a mess but most of it stems from the top down.
Business should be encouraged and helped along instead of being harassed by revenue, people out of work should be encouraged to set up their own businesses and helped along the way. There's no doubt people are getting too much money on welfare and that hole in the economy needs to be plugged no doubt. To get the economy rolling again is the key to our success and the
easiest quickest way to do this is to drop the VAT/tax rate, pretty soon people would be flocking here to buy stuff which would stimulate tourism, retail, air traffic etc. etc and get the whole economy rolling again.

dvpower

randylonghorn wrote: »

Why is it a daft rant? I've nothing against Martin Cullen, but why does he need a pension of €105,000? Why does anyone, TD, banker or candlestick-maker?

Because cutting the pensions of ministers will save only pennies compared to the c.€20bn current account deficit that we are running. These calls are just a distraction from the real issues.

(But I do agree that minister's pensions are too generous).

randylonghorn

dvpower wrote: »

Because cutting the pensions of ministers will save only pennies compared to the c.€20bn current account deficit that we are running. These calls are just a distraction from the real issues.

(But I do agree that minister's pensions are too generous).

I could be facetious and say "look after the pennies and the pounds euros will look after themselves".

But actually, this issue is a lot more important than that.

It's about a concept called "leading by example", a concept our politicians have never heard of.

They want people to take pay-cuts and pay pension levies, to work until they're 68, to generally "tighten their belts" as Haughey famously appealed for in his day (probably while wearing a Charvet shirt!).

Yet they award themselves a pension of €105,000 p.a.?

And allow their idiot pals in the banks who dumped us in all of this to retire with golden handshakes and pensions which make even minister's pensions look like a kid's pocket-money?

And they are surprised that people are grumbling?

dvpower

randylonghorn wrote: »

I could be facetious and say "look after the pennies and the pounds euros will look after themselves".

Yes. That would be facetious.

randylonghorn wrote: »

And they are surprised that people are grumbling?

No. And in my experience, grumbling doesn't work.

Truley

Big Steve wrote: »

2. all recipients do charity work 15-20 hours a week in a hospital or cleaning our streets. make the country a little nicer and ease the strain of the medical profession. if you don't show up you don't get paid like a real job. anyone under 25 does one night over the weekend.

So people have to work for 20 hours a week for less than min wage. Do they get the same rights/entitlements as someone in a 'real job'? What about the people that profit from their work? What about in cases of unfair treatment or harrassment, they can't leave their 'job.' So what you're suggesting is essentially slavery :eek:

Greyfox

Truley wrote: »

So people have to work for 20 hours a week for less than min wage. Do they get the same rights/entitlements as someone in a 'real job'? What about the people that profit from their work? What about in cases of unfair treatment or harrassment, they can't leave their 'job.' So what you're suggesting is essentially slavery :eek:

Actually it would work out at more then the minimum wage! I think making people on the dole work between 10 - 15 hours a week would be a brilliant idea, although making them work one day a week would probably be more realistic, it certainly makes a lot more sense then giving somebody €200 for sitting at home scratching their ar**, the people who profit from it with be ourselves when we have cleaner streets and hospitals etc

Of course they would have rights just like real employees, if they don't like their job they can get assigned somewhere else. Even if they just had to work one day a week it would make sure that those not actively seeking work (the minority I know) would work that bit harder trying to find work

randylonghorn

dvpower wrote: »

No. And in my experience, grumbling doesn't work.

I suspect it will work this time round when it comes to the polls.

Dumb as we seem to be in this country when it comes to voting the same old hacks in, I doubt they will survive this time.

Dublin Hibby

The leadership issue is at the heart of the grumbling, what right minded person would willingly accept major cuts to their income, when the ones making the cuts are at the hurry up with the same money.

nachoman

ejmaztec wrote: »

Firing squads down the dole office, mass sterilisation, Zyklon B, more Zyklon B, mass Easter crucifixions..........................................

many laughs

nachoman

Mrmoe wrote: »

I agree with certain points that you are making. The way things are at the moment the government is more likely to screw things up than to get an efficient voucher system operating. There might be a lot of loop holes in the system but I think it could be better than the system we currently have. You could even make it a reward based system. If you do a course or some other type of training you could be allowed additional vouchers.

The type of vouchers I would envision would be fairly unrestricted vouchers with the exception that alcohol and tobacco products could not be purchased. These are luxury items as far as I am concerned. With regard to embarrassment , this can be a good thing. It might eventually drive them to go and find work.

For people looking to take up a hobby they can do so if they budget their resources. What about all the people who work who would also like to take up photography but can't afford that snazzy new SLR digital camera? Should people who are unemployed get an automatic right to training or equipment that employed people do not?

Whatever, points people have to make in this forum joking or serious, the inevitable is going to happen in December 2010 and that is that the Dole will be reduced to about 150 euro a week.

old_aussie

People should be required to work for their dole.

Xiney

old_aussie wrote: »

People should be required to work for their dole.

Doing what, exactly?

Something that someone else should be getting paid to do, thus putting them on the dole because their job has been taken over?

Or would you have them building famine roads and the like?

moonpurple

you think the dole is the problem

the problem is the absence of an election to clear what

gene kerrigan described as

'a cabal of self regarding underachievers'
:cool: