What sort of deal would stop the current industrial action/strikes?

rightwingdub

bryaner wrote: »

I know the unions leave little to be desired and fully understand that the PS needs a major overhaul and has done for some time, what i don't understand (1) how they can cut the tits out of people on 30k down who are the most needy (2) even with the PS being so inefficient they did not break the country (3) how so many people have fallen into the governments trap and jumped on board and help them drive the wedge between the two sectors, when it is biffo and bertie bonehead who have blown our billions of capital on serious waste and non functioning banks..

Bryaner, I'm strongly anti bankers myself also, I personally wish Anglo Irish Bank was razed to the ground in a controlled explosion after the building has been completely deserted, I can't believe what Alan Dukes came out with yesterday saying that the txapayer would be hit with a €20 billion bill if it went bust immediately.

In your 3 points that you've made many people on modest pay in the private sector have had to take pay cuts look at Cappoquin Chickens, a load of restaurant staff, hotel staff, if they were working in the private sector they would have no other alternative but to take pay cuts in order to hold onto the jobs, private sector practices need to apply in the public sector also.

Your 2nd point the public sector didn't cause this mess, however llok at benchmarking in 2003, existing work practices, massive increase in employment in the public sector during the boom years, Ireland has one of the highest public sector pay rates in the World that is completely unaffordable.


On your final point can you not understand why people in the private sector are peeved off at the actions of public sector workers, they have lifelong job security, great pensions and enjoy great pay, for crying out loud a hospital porter gets €27k per year, they would not get that in the private sector, cleaners get €25k per year for cleaning s**t out of a toilet. Also what did McLoone did about the waste in FAS, absolutely nothing funny he's very quiet about this, also David Begg on the board of the central bank, hmmmm he said nothing about Neary's disgraceful severence package, I wonder why?

changes

rightwingdub wrote: »

cleaners get €25k per year for cleaning s**t out of a toilet.

I wouldn't do it for that money

rightwingdub

changes wrote: »

I wouldn't do it for that money

Even if you were unemployed?

murf313

[/QUOTE]I went for an admin role back in 2004 there were over 60 applicants and the salary was about €25k per year.[/QUOTE]

if you had of got this job and were currently working in this position, would you not be fighting for you 25k pa?

Paulzx

rightwingdub wrote: »

Thats a bit extreme, .

Now that is something i never thought i'd see in one of your posts:D

murf313

danbohan wrote: »

no , let them go on strike , the army have no overseas operations at the moment let them shoot them off the streets !

so basically you are advocating that public servants should be shot on the streets?

some people are f*cked up........

changes

rightwingdub wrote: »

Even if you were unemployed?

If the bills were piling up i'd prob do it if there was no other way of making money. But there would be a mop in my hand and not a scrubbing brush:D

bryaner

rightwingdub wrote: »

Bryaner, I'm strongly anti bankers myself also, I personally wish Anglo Irish Bank was razed to the ground in a controlled explosion after the building has been completely deserted, I can't believe what Alan Dukes came out with yesterday saying that the txapayer would be hit with a €20 billion bill if it went bust immediately.

In your 3 points that you've made many people on modest pay in the private sector have had to take pay cuts look at Cappoquin Chickens, a load of restaurant staff, hotel staff, if they were working in the private sector they would have no other alternative but to take pay cuts in order to hold onto the jobs, private sector practices need to apply in the public sector also.

Your 2nd point the public sector didn't cause this mess, however llok at benchmarking in 2003, existing work practices, massive increase in employment in the public sector during the boom years, Ireland has one of the highest public sector pay rates in the World that is completely unaffordable.


On your final point can you not understand why people in the private sector are peeved off at the actions of public sector workers, they have lifelong job security, great pensions and enjoy great pay, for crying out loud a hospital porter gets €27k per year, they would not get that in the private sector, cleaners get €25k per year for cleaning s**t out of a toilet. Also what did McLoone did about the waste in FAS, absolutely nothing funny he's very quiet about this, also David Begg on the board of the central bank, hmmmm he said nothing about Neary's disgraceful severence package, I wonder why?

25k is quite easily obtained cleaning out jacks in the private sector I know people at it, as for pensions I'm not a believer in them as you have to live to them and I know way too many that have died before pension age I'd sooner spend it when I'm alive. Benchmarking I don't agree with but that was rubber stamped by bonehead bertie and his motley crew

And my point about the lower paid workers was to go handier on them and reef the fat cats

WalterMitty

i'd agree with a no strike clause in public sector. The government is not like any other employer, it is expected to uphold legislation and highest standards of industrial relations. The government of the day are only the representatives of the wider public not of some evil capitalist overlords. If the public sector extract massive wages from government as they did in the boom and demand to keep most of it in the bust they are hurting no one other than the wider public who will suffer through higher taxes and/or lower services.
You could still have dispute resolution mechanisms while having a no strike clause but strikes related to pay levels and pensions should be banned. If you dont like the pay/pensions/conditions then leave and cut your teeth in the private sector. I think the security of employment in public sector more than makes up for the inability to strike over pay/pensions.
Once a salary and pension package is enough to attract an adequete number of qualified people to any given post in public sector then that pay and pension package is enough. Currently most or almost all jobs in public sector could be filled by offering a much lower pay and pension package than exists now. Therefore the private taxpayer who ultimately funds the public sector is overpaying and needs to see cyts in overall cost. This is the logical conclusion of the market based approach that IRish people overwhelmingly voted for over past 2 decades as demonstrated by the parties they elected.

Smiegal

rightwingdub wrote: »

Make them sign a contract forbidding them to go on strike.

This thread seems to be descending into one which advocates Public Servants having no rights when it comes to labour relations.

Whether your pro-public sector or anti public sector or somewhere in between... anyone with a bit of sense could see that without unions the Public Sector would be at the mercy of every single budget going forward if they did not have the right that every other Citizen in this country have, with the exeption of Gardaí and The Army - two of the most ill-equipped organisations when compared to other countries.

2010 and Gardaí are only now implementing a national radio system - which at this stage is already superceded by most Western Countries. This was brought about by constant badgering by the GRA - simialar to Pepper spray, anti-stab jackets, better uniform, etc... Point being that all of this equipment should have been introduced years ago like other normal police forces, but because the Gardai, unlike their European colleagues, do not have any industrial rights what so ever, the Government did not have to do this... so it didn't. Thats why Unions are essential when dealing with this Government.

Count Dooku

Smiegal wrote: »

This thread seems to be descending into one which advocates Public Servants having no rights when it comes to labour relations.

Problem is that public servants have more rights then other workers.
Main difference between private sector workers and public servants is that if workers in private company will go for strike, then it will be problem of management, rather then customers of this company, which can switch to competitors during strike.
If public servants will strike, it will affect only general public, will not affect management at all and will slightly affect ratings of ruling party.

Smiegal wrote: »

Whether your pro-public sector or anti public sector or somewhere in between... anyone with a bit of sense could see that without unions the Public Sector would be at the mercy of every single budget going forward if they did not have the right that every other Citizen in this country have, with the exeption of Gardaí and The Army - two of the most ill-equipped organisations when compared to other countries.

So far everybody could see completely opposite.
Any invention, which could increase performance of workers, must be approved first by unions

Smiegal wrote: »

2010 and Gardaí are only now implementing a national radio system - which at this stage is already superceded by most Western Countries. This was brought about by constant badgering by the GRA - simialar to Pepper spray, anti-stab jackets, better uniform, etc... Point being that all of this equipment should have been introduced years ago like other normal police forces, but because the Gardai, unlike their European colleagues, do not have any industrial rights what so ever, the Government did not have to do this... so it didn't. Thats why Unions are essential when dealing with this Government.

If Gardai really wanted their new toys, could put more pressure on government without any strike.
For example by refusing interviews to newspapers, which will not publish everyday article about incompetent minister of justice, which doesn’t want to buy new equipment for gardai. Newspaper could only have official press releases and documents requested through FoI, but no hot information.

BTW, it is responsibility of top civil servants demand what their departments need from ministers. If minister refused request, they could always organize a leaks.

BeardyFunzo

my 2c about not allowing strike action in the public sector:

1. it seems that the threat of strike action, after weeks of work to rule, is the thing that got the unions and the government talking again, so say what you will, it's effective.

2. No strike action and you put the public service at the mercy of the minister for finance at every budget (and lord knows we've had some shady characters in that ministry).

3. When times get tough you get the Minister cutting wages and then you make public sector jobs unattractive. So lets take a group of public servants that I'd be familiar with, as an example- academics. A smart bunch generally and from my experience quite mobile (in an international sense). If you axe public pay low enough you'll basically have a brain drain from the country.

Those jobs would have to be replaced but because any established academic has buggered off the quality of our universities will suffer. If standards drop low enough then you can wave goodbye to every multinational in the country.

So yeah you could stop the public service from striking but in the long term it would be a bad bad idea.

(I'm not an academic btw.)

changes

BeardyFunzo wrote: »

2. No strike action and you put the public service at the mercy of the minister for finance at every budget (and lord knows we've had some shady characters in that ministry).

This is an important point, you wouldn't want a finance minister cutting your wages one year and then granting payrises in the run up to an election or on a good year.

Stability is much more important particularly for the lower paid, handing over a sizable portion of their pay for mortgage costs and bills.

astrofool

Brain drain isn't really a worry, as we pay our public sector more than most countries in the world. We could probably half the wages, and still have no problem attracting new people in.

It's also not like we have world leading people in each field due to this overpayment either.

dunsandin

changes wrote: »

Donegalfella who exactly have you appointed yourself to speak for? Thats your opinion.
I work in the PS and I am on the phones everyday. There is indeed sympathy from the public, certainly not everyone.
Nobody has given me grief over the work to rule but some have given their support.



Nobody dares speak their mind about the PS to their faces, they are too afraid of the repercussions - "hi MR/Mrs Tax disc issuer - I think you have a cheek, but can I please have my tax disc now? What that, my paperwork is not in order? Oh No!!!"
Extend that on to the nurse you depend on, the tax man, the vat man, the passport man, etc etc... But once again, they have a right to fight their corner-I don't agree with them on any level whatsoever, but each to their own.

dunsandin

astrofool wrote: »

Brain drain isn't really a worry, as we pay our public sector more than most countries in the world. We could probably half the wages, and still have no problem attracting new people in.

It's also not like we have world leading people in each field due to this overpayment either.

I agree fully. Brain drain!!!! Thats like saying if we didn't pay Pat Kenny what he gets, he would leave and go......Where? Can't see the uk or USA queing up to hire the plank, or our esteemed,blundering PS. (I have to tax one of the vans on monday, so better add that I think the lads and lasses in the car tax office do great work and are worth every penny, I think they are great, and damn the govt for daring to touch their no doubt meagre pay - they deserve double, no doubt, great alltogether. Especially the way they serve 3 customers before slamming down their little blind and going on their break, and the way there are 10 counters, and only three are open, despite the queue being 100 strong - but sure dont they deserve their breaks, and I love em, really....Whats that, I need a DOE on a 08, can't get a disc....Damn.

murf313

dunsandin wrote: »

I agree fully. Brain drain!!!! Thats like saying if we didn't pay Pat Kenny what he gets, he would leave and go......Where? Can't see the uk or USA queing up to hire the plank, or our esteemed,blundering PS. (I have to tax one of the vans on monday, so better add that I think the lads and lasses in the car tax office do great work and are worth every penny, I think they are great, and damn the govt for daring to touch their no doubt meagre pay - they deserve double, no doubt, great alltogether. Especially the way they serve 3 customers before slamming down their little blind and going on their break, and the way there are 10 counters, and only three are open, despite the queue being 100 strong - but sure dont they deserve their breaks, and I love em, really....Whats that, I need a DOE on a 08, can't get a disc....Damn.

boohoo you have a chip on your shoulder about there being a queue in the tax office. I was in supervalue yesterday and had to queue to buy my groceries but you dont hear people whinging about that.
People have every right to defend there pay and you would be doing the same if you were in the same position.
you cant just run around halving peoples pay.......

Count Dooku

murf313 wrote: »

People have every right to defend there pay and you would be doing the same if you were in the same position.

Workers of aerlingus tried to defend their pay and everybody started to fly ryanair….
If it will be no competition in private sector, then greed of business owners will be multiplied by demands of their workers and even big salaries in public sector will be not big enough.
BTW, I agree that paramedics paid too low in comparison with pen or trolley pushers, but you by your strike will defend more higher paid public servants rather then your own pay...

murf313

Count Dooku wrote: »

Workers of aerlingus tried to defend their pay and everybody started to fly ryanair….
If it will be no competition in private sector, then greed of business owners will be multiplied by demands of their workers and even big salaries in public sector will be not big enough.
BTW, I agree that paramedics paid too low in comparison with pen or trolley pushers, but you by your strike will defend more higher paid public servants rather then your own pay...

have you not noticed that the frontline services have distanced themselves from the higher paid? dont get me wrong, i dont want to have to go on strike i accept that we all have to take the pain and i have done thus far. but i wont stand any further cuts to my pay. there are plenty of places where savings can be achieved without touching pay.
morale is very low in the emergency services at the minute.....

BeardyFunzo

dunsandin wrote: »

I agree fully. Brain drain!!!! Thats like saying if we didn't pay Pat Kenny what he gets, he would leave and go......Where? Can't see the uk or USA queing up to hire the plank, or our esteemed,blundering PS.

Wow. Way to take two words of my post, strap them onto a bad analogy and run with it. Magnificent.

Firstly I was referring to actual brains, you know, PhDs and professors. People with talents and actual skills wanted by other institutions in other countries. Pat Kenny isn't wanted anywhere else in the world- he's a purely Irish phenomenon and you're right, he wouldn't translate to anywhere else in the world.

Take your professor or phd though- a talent in science or whatever will see them pick up jobs across the world. the UK has 15 times the population of Ireland, the USA 100 times. There are plenty of jobs available to these people across the world. You could have large portions of our established academia up and leave if they don't like they way things are going.

dunsandin wrote: »

I have to tax one of the vans on monday, so better add that I think the lads and lasses in the car tax office do great work and are worth every penny, I think they are great, and damn the govt for daring to touch their no doubt meagre pay - they deserve double, no doubt, great alltogether. Especially the way they serve 3 customers before slamming down their little blind and going on their break, and the way there are 10 counters, and only three are open, despite the queue being 100 strong - but sure dont they deserve their breaks, and I love em, really....Whats that, I need a DOE on a 08, can't get a disc....Damn.

https://www.motortax.ie

dunsandin wrote: »

Last edited by dunsandin; Today at 00:02. Reason: Crappy grammar, ignorance and excess bile

Would hate to have seen what you had written before the edit.

BeardyFunzo

astrofool wrote: »

Brain drain isn't really a worry, as we pay our public sector more than most countries in the world. We could probably half the wages, and still have no problem attracting new people in.

Sure you could get people in but would they be good people? The answer to that is no, they wouldn't be.

astrofool wrote: »

It's also not like we have world leading people in each field due to this overpayment either.

Yes we do. You just don't know them because the sciences aren't exactly front page news.

Count Dooku

murf313 wrote: »

have you not noticed that the frontline services have distanced themselves from the higher paid?

And then David Begg did everything that this distancing didn’t affect higher paid servants at all.
Do you remember that initial ICTU proposal was about equal sharing pain between higher paid and lower paid workers through equal number of unpaid days independent from pay scale ?
I afraid that lower paid workers have been betrayed twice – by government and by union leaders, but they are turning anger on general public, rather then on their real enemies
Union leaders will use anger of lower paid to reverse cuts on higher paid
Do you think that anybody will see strike of management and other fat cats from public services? This is why unions must keep lower paid PS workers angry, otherwise it will be too easy implement cuts on higher paid

murf313

Count Dooku wrote: »

And then David Begg did everything that this distancing didn’t affect higher paid servants at all.
Do you remember that initial ICTU proposal was about equal sharing pain between higher paid and lower paid workers through equal number of unpaid days independent from pay scale ?
I afraid that lower paid workers have been betrayed twice – by government and by union leaders, but they are turning anger on general public, rather then on their real enemies
Union leaders will use anger of lower paid to reverse cuts on higher paid
Do you think that anybody will see strike of management and other fat cats from public services? This is why unions must keep lower paid PS workers angry, otherwise it will be too easy implement cuts on higher paid

what do you propose lower paid public servants do then?

Mal-Adjusted

rightwingdub wrote: »

seize all financial assets held by the trade unions

that's right, because we live in a despotism. :rolleyes:

danbohan

murf313 wrote: »

boohoo you have a chip on your shoulder about there being a queue in the tax office. I was in supervalue yesterday and had to queue to buy my groceries but you dont hear people whinging about that.
People have every right to defend there pay and you would be doing the same if you were in the same position.
you cant just run around halving peoples pay.......

of course you cant go around halving peoples pay especially PS !, what the govt should be doing is halving the number of public servants and privatizing services like road tax etc

murf313

danbohan wrote: »

of course you cant go around halving peoples pay especially PS !, what the govt should be doing is halving the number of public servants and privatizing services like road tax etc

if your not going to come up with a sensible solution why bother posting at all?
so, who is going to do all the extra work when you have sacked 150,000 people???
get real will ya...........

Count Dooku

murf313 wrote: »

so, who is going to do all the extra work when you have sacked 150,000 people???
get real will ya...........

Do you think that all services are really critical for functioning of state?
Do you think that country can afford a lot of luxuries, like 800 quangos ?
Have a look how many department received increase of funding for 2010 and tell me how many are really critical for proper functioning of state(except Social and Family affairs)
Why not simply cut salaries in those departments, rather then pay a fortune as retirements packages for managers?



source - page 7

If you want protect fat cats, because your union leaders fooled you by “workers solidarity”, then don’t complain that when people will fight back, it will hit you as well

If public sector wants to fight against public as single unit, where hard working lower paid workers will protect their higher paid and less critical for society colleagues, then people can start fight back by generalizing between lazy overpaid and hard working underpaid

doc_17

danbohan wrote: »

privatizing services like road tax etc

They should be abolishing road tax altogether! They tax us based on the type of car we buy and they stick in a carbon tax to tax us based on how much we drive. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

But privatise it? no way.

doc_17

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you think that all services are really critical for functioning of state?


If public sector wants to fight against public as single unit, where hard working lower paid workers will protect their higher paid and less critical for society colleagues, then people can start fight back by generalizing between lazy overpaid and hard working underpaid

Good point. Too many pencil pushers who have this belief that they are entitled to do nothing and still get paid and not enough frontline staff, teachers, nurses and gardai to do the real work (such as reading x-rays). get rid of all the quangos. let the TDs do the work. I am a public servant and will defend the essential areas but if we don't separate the wheat from the chaff we all pay.

murf313

Count dooku you are the only one who seems to put forward logical arguments. Everyone else is just ranting about halving pay etc.
I think you are dead right, there is no need for half these quangos and some people are grossly overpaid. But can you see my argument?? I am only defending my pay and conditions when most of these misinformed eejits are saying I'm lazy etc and don't deserve the pay I do get!

danbohan

murf313 wrote: »

if your not going to come up with a sensible solution why bother posting at all?
so, who is going to do all the extra work when you have sacked 150,000 people???
get real will ya...........

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

doc_17

danbohan wrote: »

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

:rolleyes:

BeardyFunzo

danbohan wrote: »

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

Change the record man, you're boring me. If you can't add something serious to the conversation please think about maybe not adding anything at all.

BeardyFunzo

danbohan wrote: »

privatizing services like road tax etc

What you essentially mean here is handing over the roads to private business and tolling every road in the country.

Remember the M50 toll booths?

changes

danbohan wrote: »

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

Thanks for making another short silly statement.
At least now when i see your name i can just pass your post and read the next. Nothing sensible to read there....next....

murf313

danbohan wrote: »

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

why dont you throw yourself off the top of your stairs, phone 999 for an ambulance and then you will see how much work i can do in an hour!
im going to stop feeding the troll now.......

rightwingdub

[/QUOTE]

if you had of got this job and were currently working in this position, would you not be fighting for you 25k pa?[/QUOTE]

I would be realistic and educated enough to know that I'd regard government pay cuts as the lesser of two evils compared to an IMF style pay cut of at least 30%, a lot of public sector workers are completely out of touch with financial reality.

I would also walk through a picket line as I would be completely opposed to industrial action.

dunsandin

murf313 wrote: »

if your not going to come up with a sensible solution why bother posting at all?
so, who is going to do all the extra work when you have sacked 150,000 people???
get real will ya...........

The only getting real is this - we have the population of Birmingham and a public sector that could service half of europe. 300,000 to look after our needs? A public servant for every fifteen people - I want my tax disc delivered, my consultant to do house calls and the road sweepers to do my hoovering in that case, sure they only have 14 others to look after, I can have 1 for 24 days of the year all to myself. Get real will ya.

dunsandin

BeardyFunzo wrote: »

Change the record man, you're boring me. If you can't add something serious to the conversation please think about maybe not adding anything at all.

Oh yeah, since the go slower began, the whole country has ground to a halt!!! Nobodys noticed your go slow, we expect nothing but slowness anyway, its just more of the same. Go slower why dont ye, we wont notice that either, we all dread having to deal with the PS anyway, because at the best of times it is just one thing - - - S L O WWWWW.

paraletic

the question raised "What sort of deal would stop the current industrial action/strikes?" isn't even being discussed, it's become private v public once again.
imo if the cuts were done fairly i could take them, (ie cutting all ps pay across all sectors isn't fair, but then they still raise the NAMA chaps pay from 100k to 175k - that is just not fair)

danbohan wrote: »

well the works not been done now , most public servants do less work in a week than people in private sector do in 1 hour , obviously you are one of them ,

You don't seem too bright so i won't be too harsh....
every one has the right to put their point of view across on this forum, but, where do you get your figures from?


I've said it before:
If you don't know what your talking about, then keep it to yourself.

murf313 wrote: »

why dont you throw yourself off the top of your stairs, phone 999 for an ambulance and then you will see how much work i can do in an hour!
im going to stop feeding the troll now.......

maybe some one will push him!

murf313

I would be realistic and educated enough to know that I'd regard government pay cuts as the lesser of two evils compared to an IMF style pay cut of at least 30%, a lot of public sector workers are completely out of touch with financial reality.

I would also walk through a picket line as I would be completely opposed to industrial action.

do you actually really believe this? so if you were on 25k you would be happy to take MORE cuts (i say more because everyone has accepted the present ones)? even though the fat cats are getting away with murder and laughing all the way to the bank??
The imf dont even come into this btw....

id love to see you cross a picket line......

Welease

murf313 wrote: »

do you actually really believe this? so if you were on 25k you would be happy to take MORE cuts (i say more because everyone has accepted the present ones)?

Really? I was under the impression the current actions were as a direct result of the previous cuts.. Have the unions got it wrong?

rightwingdub

murf313 wrote: »

do you actually really believe this? so if you were on 25k you would be happy to take MORE cuts (i say more because everyone has accepted the present ones)? even though the fat cats are getting away with murder and laughing all the way to the bank??
The imf dont even come into this btw....

id love to see you cross a picket line......

I've walked through a picket line before, I'd do it again no problem listening to my walkman. Well the ECB and the international financial markets are calling the shots on the Irish economy, if the government caves into the trade unions then it will be more difficult for the Irish government to borrow on the market as Interest would increase substantially. The Germans are peeved off about bailing out the Greeks, can't see them willing to tolerate an Irish bailout, they'd let the IMF take over Ireland.

murf313

Welease wrote: »

Really? I was under the impression the current actions were as a direct result of the previous cuts.. Have the unions got it wrong?

i presume you are not familiar with negotiation tactics......

unions say we want pay cuts reversed, govt says no way but we promise not to cut them in next budget if you accept reform, unions say ok that will do....
(along those lines anyway...)

murf313

I've walked through a picket line before, I'd do it again no problem listening to my walkman.

yeah id say your mr. popular alright......

Welease

murf313 wrote: »

i presume you are not familiar with negotiation tactics......

unions say we want pay cuts reversed, govt says no way but we promise not to cut them in next budget if you accept reform, unions say ok that will do....
(along those lines anyway...)

Don't presume anything, if you have a question ask me.

Ok, so the current industrial action is about something that might/might not happen in the future (and that the government has made no indication about)?

To state that the majority of the PS/Union have accepted the pay cuts is wrong, and not backed up by the reality of the current industrial actions in place (and projected escalations). Have a look at the Unions web sites..

Paulzx

Welease wrote: »

Don't presume anything, if you have a question ask me.

Ok, so the current industrial action is about something that might/might not happen in the future (and that the government has made no indication about)?

To state that the majority of the PS/Union have accepted the pay cuts is wrong, and not backed up by the reality of the current industrial actions in place (and projected escalations). Have a look at the Unions web sites..

The unions sat on their hands and done nothing after the pension levy was applied and before the paycuts were announced even though they knew they were coming. They have been instructed by their members to ensure no further paycuts are applied. The actions that are ongoing at present are as a result of all that has gone before and the knowledge that the only way to avoid further paycuts is to basically get their retaliation in first.

As has been said before most of us will accept what has already been taken from us but we will not accept another pay cut. The present strategy is geared towards this and not restoration of previous cuts irrespective of what union officials are saying publicly. Its called negotiation

murf313

Welease wrote: »

Don't presume anything, if you have a question ask me.

Ok, so the current industrial action is about something that might/might not happen in the future (and that the government has made no indication about)?

To state that the majority of the PS/Union have accepted the pay cuts is wrong, and not backed up by the reality of the current industrial actions in place (and projected escalations). Have a look at the Unions web sites..

if you look at the bigger picture you will see that the current action is about preventing further paycuts.
fair enough, the unions are saying its about reinstating paycuts but the dog in the street knows that isnt going to happen.

Pharaoh1

To get back to the original question I think that a few fundamentals would need to be addressed for the public to be generally satisfied. Here's 3.

1. We need to move to a situation where govt employees are properly paid for the work they do - not underpaid or overpaid. Some type of fair comparison system to be used where there are valid comparisons with the private sector and also taking into account rates of pay in other countries. Whether this is done by freezes, increases or cuts is really not the big issue as long the goal is achieved. I appreciate that this is not an exact science and if an independent survey in 2-3 years time showed that there was still say a 5% premium for working in the PS then we would at least be on track.

2. Pensions are a big issue. Eg I personally don't believe TD's are overpaid. But the problems arise when you look at the pension benefits they receive. We need to decide whether
(a) The amount of pension benefit (over and above the basic state pension) a govt employee receives should be contributed by that employee over their working life (similar to a standard DC scheme)
or
(b) the value of the pension is not contributed to in full and is merely a subscription allowing entry to the scheme which means that the taxpayer makes up the difference. (sort of similar to funded DB schemes)
Pre pension levy (b) was the case and I suppose its introduction was an attempt to move towards (a) but I think it is a bit of a mess and may be an unfair burden in some cases

3. I don't like the phrase "making the public service work more like the private sector" and recently I've had the assistance of excellent, efficient govt. employees but I've also seen some absolutely shocking and wasteful practices. I don't think most people expect perfection all the time from any organisation but I think any objective observer would conclude that there needs to be much improvement. Maybe "transformation" will move us towards this particular goal.

97i9y3941

if they are really "poor" wouldn't they go off and get another job,or is it the 9-5 routine that they would miss?..