Anglesea road anger

CramCycle

Cycling to work today at about 18:45, when a car tries to overtake me on a corner on Anglesea road only to come head on into a bus. This is the S-bend corner for those who know the road where if your coming from Donnybrook the road forks before going around the RDS So he has to swerve to avoid it. I slam on my breaks as soon as I realise whats happening and miss getting crushed by a meter or two.

I roar one obscenity, out of shock, and he carries on, seemingly not noticing. I arrive at the traffic lights before you enter Ballsbridge where he has rolled down his window to roar abuse at me. I pull up and then he continues to shout at me and then rev his engine and jump the clutch, pushing in on me. The light goes green, I shout "you can't overtake on a bend you idiot", and I cycle on.

At the second lights after Ballsbridge (the first crossroads) heading down Shelbourne Road, I see the chance to take his details. Pull in and scribble them down. He must have seen me as when the lights go green he swerves across a lane of traffic to park on the kerb/left hand lane at the crossroad. I push off and he jumps out of his car and shouts come hear to me you in a clearly agitated tone and tries to pull me off my bike/swings for me. I swerved as he reached for me (traffic is pretty slow, so not much danger, but still highly risky) and belted off. Shouted back at him, report to the Gardaí/other less pleasant obscenities etc. He was pretty short but somehow I didn't think being a macho man and cracking him one was the right way to go.

Got to work 3 minutes later and called Donnybrook Garda station and reported it all. Very nice Gardaí and very helpful. Contacted the district the guy is located in and are getting a Garda to call up to him this evening/tomorrow morning. Rang me back to inform of what was happening. Told me no details of mine would be released to him so I shouldn't worry. They also said they would ring me this evening to inform me of the warning and to see if this is a satisfactory response.

Here's my problem. I realise if I push it, it's my word against his. I could guess he's not the type of guy who'll be too bothered by the Gardaí calling round with my story (I am a foot taller than him and better built (and I ain't in good shape), he had no way of knowing I couldn't bury him). I have asked the Gardaí that he is cautioned and my details are kept on his file, in case anyone else reports his aggressive behaviour, so I can testify it is not a one off. My problem being how do I know the next guy he acts like an asshole to will report it, or even get the chance to if he runs them off the road.

Should I push it, create hassle for the guy and try to get points on his license/donation to the court poor-box or should I hope that the warning from the Gardaí will be enough?

How does this even work? Anyone with previous experience on going through the system.

dubmess

Good questions, sorry I've no advice to give but I'm very eager to hear people's opinions.

In my experience, I've generally felt there was no point, the couple of times I've reported it I've been told exactly that it's 'my word against his'. I'd love to know if this has changed in recent years as I've been intimidated awfully ( as recently as tonight by a wheel spinning Kerry reg'd driver all around Thomas st.(seriously, he was revving and pulling handbrakes for over a kilometre, while I was right behind him, on side streets, I almost got off and walked).

I've just always felt that someone on a bike is not taken seriously.:(

Lumen

dubmess wrote: »

I've just always felt that someone on a bike is not taken seriously.:(

What would you do if you were the garda?

It would be the same with a car. There was no actual harm done, and apparently no witnesses, so you're not going to get anywhere.

Perhaps the bus driver might remember the swerve.

Next time...



(joke)

blorg

This is the attitude of a small number of loon drivers, they screw up and it's your fault. He doesn't sound like the most rational of people. As to what you describe, his physically swinging for you/trying to push you off your bike is assault. Happened to me once in a road rage incident and the driver was prosecuted- but I had witnesses who were shocked by it and independently reported it to the gardai. Without witnesses it is your word against his.

Note it is important in any dealings with Gardai to tell them the whole story and leave nothing out. So detail any obscenities you used, if you banged on his car say this up front etc. Will look a lot better as to your honesty as they will come up from the other side.

Incidentally did you find having brakes on your bike helped in this case to avoid a collision? :pac:

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

As to what you describe, his physically swinging for you/trying to push you off your bike is assault.

"I push off and he jumps out of his car and shouts come hear to me you in a clearly agitated tone and tries to pull me off my bike/swings for me. I swerved as he reached for me".

So there was no contact, as I read it. How can it be assault?

Nearly seriously injuring then almost assaulting someone are considered lesser offences that actually lightly buffing someone's visage with a u-lock.

This is why it never makes sense to escalate these things. You can't predict how it will play out, or how it will look after the event.

If you'd have pushed him away, and he'd fallen on to a kerb, his story might have been:

"I was driving along, and this wobbly cyclist swerves out. I took evasive action and managed to avoid him, despite risking a collision with an oncoming bus (which could have killed me). I pulled over to see if he was OK, and he got really aggressive and shoved me back on to the kerb. I've had headaches and nightmares ever since, and I've just lost my job because I've been off sick. My wife has left me and I'm suicidal".

It's bull**** obviously, but who's to know? The only evidence would be his injuries.

blorg

Assault actually doesn't require contact, just the attempt. Throwing an egg at someone, that misses, is assault. Technically it's battery if there is contact.

I agree 100% with the non-escalation.

dub_skav

blorg wrote: »

Assault actually doesn't require contact, just the attempt. Throwing an egg at someone, that misses, is assault. Technically it's battery if there is contact.

I agree 100% with the non-escalation.

would battery not be throwing loads of eggs

Lumen

dub_skav wrote: »

would battery not be throwing loads of eggs

Without milk and flour it's just badly attempted battery.

Civilian_Target

Good job keeping cool - it's difficult to do in those situations!

In hindsight, like Lumen says, the best thing would have been to note his plate, catch up with the bus driver, and then you have a case... but hindsight is 20/20. I think your best bet is to leave it here, he's an angry little ****, but you've done your duty by reporting it. If he gets in a real accident, your words will stand against him.

monument

blorg wrote: »

Assault actually doesn't require contact, just the attempt. Throwing an egg at someone, that misses, is assault. Technically it's battery if there is contact.

From another thread I posted in:

The 'Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997'.

LINK: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/...026/index.html

Which also includes the following:

28.—(1) The following common law offences are hereby abolished—
( a ) assault and battery,
( b ) assault occasioning actual bodily harm,
( c ) kidnapping, and
( d ) false imprisonment.

Does this not seem to be outside of your limited definition of assault?:

• "2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—
• ( a ) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or"

Jumpy

Regardless, I would say a warning normally, but with the attempt to remove you from the bike I would go further.

droidus

If you want to pursue it you could try Dublin Bus as they have cameras on board. Can you remember the time/bus number?

If you had your own helmet/bar cam the guy would probably be facing charges.

blorg

@Monument- fair enough, battery is replaced with "assault causing harm," battery was the common law term for this. Assault is still defined as to include attempted contact, if you just left in the second clause:

2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—

( a ) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or

( b ) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,

without the consent of the other.

...

Assault causing harm.
3.—(1) A person who assaults another causing him or her harm shall be guilty of an offence.

Peetrik

Lots of cameras about nowadays, always a chance one of them picked it up.

Always better to report it and have your version on file, rather then him reporting his own version and you having to defend yourself against it.

victorcarrera

I was clipped by a car 2 weeks ago but did not get any details.
At least you have something to go on.
Same old story of chancer motorist misjudging overtaking manoeuvre and nearly killing/injuring cyclist.
Anybody that ever threw their leg over a bike has experienced this.
OK no physical injuries means no prosecution on that front.
But what about Dangerous/Careless driving. I think the Dangerous driving is a criminal offence not a traffic offence.
Were you verbally abused in a public place? ( Up to 3 months in prison).
Did his actions or verbals indicate an incitement to violence?
Not sure if road rage is an offence in this juristiction or exclusive to the above.
I would insist the Gardai follow it up. It doesn't cost you anything if the state takes the case. You have to make a statement and sign it, otherwise nothing happens.
The way I see it is, a near miss in this situation has little or no affect on the motorist. "Ya, that was a close one but I got away with it." But it can percieved as a near death experience by a cyclist, significantly affecting their confidence and stress levels to a point where some will cease to cycle altogether. I think there is a case to be answered here.

tomasrojo

Very sorry to hear about this.

I had an incident where two guys in a people carrier (HSE workers) chased me into a newsagent, called me rather ripe names and hung around outside for about twenty mintues to see whether I'd come out. The reason for the chasing was because they'd attemped to undertake me and turn right across me I was turning right myself I loudly shouted at them as they were trying it (no obscenities).

One ended up on the caution register, but only for the name-callling, as I had a witness for that (the shop keeper). It didn't go to court, as the Gardai informed me that all they could prosecute for was the name calling, not the dangerous driving or the lurking outside.

Vélo

tomasrojo wrote: »

Very sorry to hear about this.

I had an incident where two guys in a people carrier (HSE workers) chased me into a newsagent, called me rather ripe names and hung around outside for about twenty mintues to see whether I'd come out. The reason for the chasing was because they'd attemped to undertake me and turn right across me I was turning right myself I loudly shouted at them as they were trying it (no obscenities).

One ended up on the caution register, but only for the name-callling, as I had a witness for that (the shop keeper). It didn't go to court, as the Gardai informed me that all they could prosecute for was the name calling, not the dangerous driving or the lurking outside.

Ah the good aul HSE, where would we be without them?:p

SerialComplaint

OP - Sorry to hear about your trauma. I've had some similar incidents on other roads with speed bumps, where the car accellerates madly to get past me, and then has to brake when he comes to the speed bump. Just FYI, if you have a phone with camera and voice recorder, it is usually a quick way of recording car reg and driver details, and maybe more.

You should definitely push this further. Go make a formal statement to the Gardai. If you bring a written outline of the incident with you, this will speed this up. This means that it's not just a case of the Garda calling to his door, he will need to go make a formal statement too, and will possibly even need to pay for a solicitor.

It will then be up to the Gardai or DPP to decide whether to prosecute or not, but this guy really needs to be taught a lesson, for the sake of the next cyclist he meets.

Traumadoc

Vélo wrote: »

Ah the good aul HSE, where would we be without them?:p

Paying for private care?

Seriously you have all types in the HSE ( inc. cyclists). So dont tar us all.

I had a similar incident coming down Clonskeagh road, some idiot in a golf tried to "scare" me with his golf.
Stopped when my brother caught up with us at the next traffic lights and took a few pics with his Iphone.

tomasrojo

I should clarify that I wasn't having a go at the HSE or its workers. I hope that was obvious. I just wanted to get across that it was really easy for the Gardai to find out who they were, and they still carried on like that.

CramCycle

I'm heading down to the station this evening to leave a statement and I'll mention the Dublin Bus camera. I didn't get a number on the bus and it was heading towards Donnybrook garage at the time so I'm not sure if they can narrow it down. That said I have a rough idea of a 15 minute window it would have arrived at the Depot so maybe they can have a go at figuring it out. Spent most of Saturday thinking of more manly responses then I took but, including the lock one, but I think I made the right choice.

I'll put up details of exactly what happens tomorrow then, so it might be of use to someone else in the future.

SerialComplaint

tomasrojo wrote: »

Very sorry to hear about this.

I had an incident where two guys in a people carrier (HSE workers) chased me into a newsagent, called me rather ripe names and hung around outside for about twenty mintues to see whether I'd come out. The reason for the chasing was because they'd attemped to undertake me and turn right across me I was turning right myself I loudly shouted at them as they were trying it (no obscenities).

One ended up on the caution register, but only for the name-callling, as I had a witness for that (the shop keeper). It didn't go to court, as the Gardai informed me that all they could prosecute for was the name calling, not the dangerous driving or the lurking outside.

Did you make a complaint to the HSE? If these guys were on duty driving a HSE car, it is fair game to complain to the employer as well.

tomasrojo

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Did you make a complaint to the HSE? If these guys were on duty driving a HSE car, it is fair game to complain to the employer as well.

Never contacted the HSE in any shape or form. Once I contacted the Gardai I figured I'd leave it to them. I think you're right though. In fact, I might have been better off contacting the HSE rather than the Gardai, in retrospect. But it's all in the past now. I was glad one of them went on the caution register anyway.

poochiem

sorry to drag off topic but what is the 'caution register'?

monument

blorg wrote: »

@Monument- fair enough, battery is replaced with "assault causing harm," battery was the common law term for this. Assault is still defined as to include attempted contact, if you just left in the second clause:

Yes, indeed it is. I was not trying to correct you on assault including attempted contact, the quoted parts are how I quoted them in another thread. Sorry about that.

blorg

monument wrote: »

I was not trying to correct you on assault including attempted contact,

Well that was basically my entire point, I was replying to Lumen who said that he didn't see that there was an assault as contact was not made, contact or no contact it was still an assault.

That battery has been renamed isn't really the key issue, I will be following your posts like a hawk from now on with my pedantometer :pac:

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Well that was basically my entire point, I was replying to Lumen who said that he didn't see that there was an assault as contact was not made, contact or no contact it was still an assault.

Indeed, I have since received a full briefing on Offences Against the Person 1997 or whatever it's called.

Also, apparently assault can be pursued through the civil courts if the gardai won't prosecute, although you'd need a few quid to attempt such a thing.

I don't really get the non-contact assault thing, stick 'n' stones and all that.

superrdave

@ OP - Your biggest problem is the fact that if he is prosecuted for one offence, there is no way a competent legal team would allow previous instances of offences (such as your complaint here) to be brought up, much like if you are on trial in front of a jury they are not allowed to hear about your previous convictions etc etc. of course, if he is reported loads of times, the guards may decide to prosecute him for one of them, but because they can't give evidence of previous occasions, only what he has actually been charged with, it seems kind of unlikely.

he does sound like a total tosser though.

monument

blorg wrote: »

Well that was basically my entire point, I was replying to Lumen who said that he didn't see that there was an assault as contact was not made, contact or no contact it was still an assault.

That battery has been renamed isn't really the key issue, I will be following your posts like a hawk from now on with my pedantometer :pac:

Thanks. I should note my pedantometer is used randomly, it's not targeted.

But feel to correct any of my posts. :pac:

tomasrojo

poochiem wrote: »

sorry to drag off topic but what is the 'caution register'?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/law_enforcement/adult-cautioning-scheme

In February 2006 a new scheme came into effect in Ireland as an alternative to prosecuting adults (that is, those over 18 years of age) for certain criminal offences. The scheme is called the Adult Cautioning Scheme and may be available as an alternative to prosecution where there is evidence that the person has committed the offence and where the prosecution of such an offence is not required in the public interest.

Another matter to be considered when looking at the public interest is the offender. It would seem appropriate, for example, that someone of mature age without any previous convictions would be dealt with effectively by way of caution and would be deterred from similar behaviour in the future.

A Garda Superintendent or a Garda Inspector who is acting as the Superintendent administers the Adult Caution. The caution takes place in a Garda station. You are required to acknowledge in writing that you agree to accept the caution and that you do not object to the fact that the caution will be recorded and will be made known to a court in the event of any subsequent conviction for any criminal offence.