Now Pope linked to child abuse cover-up

OS119

Ultravid wrote: »

Like I said, even if this official version were true, would you accept it?

i would happily accept an explained version of events - so if the vicar general were to indicate the differing responsibilities of the various offices at the time, perhaps something about the particular personalities involved, and outline what happened in the case (and say what should of happened, and suggest why it didn't?), and indicate in specific terms why this particular case wouldn't have crossed Archbishop Ratzingers desk, then i'd happily accept that as the truth.

however, apart from the 'convenient' angle of the press release, there are two specific issues that i would suggest cause unease in this case: a) assuming this vicar general took the issue of child abuse seriously, i'd suggest that he'd have to be very confident in his judgement to make such a decision without even talking to his archbishop and other colleagues informally, and b) Pope Ratzinger has never in his clerical career, as far as i'm aware, had a reputation as a 'hands off', disinterested manager - indeed he is a very 'hands on' manager - so even if the issue was technically outside his duties and the responsibility of a more junior official, i'd be surprised if he didn't have at least an outline understanding of the situation.

Ultravid

OS119 wrote: »

Pope Ratzinger has never in his clerical career, as far as i'm aware, had a reputation as a 'hands off', disinterested manager - indeed he is a very 'hands on' manager - so even if the issue was technically outside his duties and the responsibility of a more junior official, i'd be surprised if he didn't have at least an outline understanding of the situation.

Says who? Where do you get your information?

Father Z knows Benedict personally and made this comment (emphases mine):

A few days ago a priest who once worked in the Washington DC nuntiature made the unfounded claim that Pope Benedict certainly was involved with the decisions about this abusive priest. That priest, Fr. Doyle, also said that Pope Benedict is a "micro-manager".

In turn, that same errant claim was picked up by Christopher Hitchens for a truly vile hit piece on Slate.

Fr. Doyle therefore did terrible damage to the Holy Father’s reputation.

First, anyone who knows anything about Joseph Ratzinger personally, knows that he is not a micro-manager. Quite the opposite is true. He is the supreme delegator. Furthermore, and this bears repeating, the role of the Vicar General in German dioceses includes most personnel decisions. There will be times when the chapter and ordinary are involved, but mostly the VG handles these matter. This would be particularly the case with then-Archbiship Ratzinger of Munich, who is not a micro-manager, but rather tends to delegate administrative decisions.

It perhaps may be claimed that the future Pope ought to have been more involved in this case because it was such a serious situation.

However, it is absurd to claim that the Pope was involved based on false judgments about the Pope’s management style coupled with a misunderstanding of the way German dioceses usually work.

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/03/how-to-write-a-news-piece-on-the-german-abuse-scandal-and-the-popes-involvement/

Irlandese

Silverharp2 wrote: »

what would be the consequences if it was proved that he knowlingly moved a priest?

Is that as in "shifted"??

Irlandese

Ultravid wrote: »

Says who? Where do you get your information?

Father Z knows Benedict personally and made this comment (emphases mine):



http://wdtprs.com/blog/2010/03/how-to-write-a-news-piece-on-the-german-abuse-scandal-and-the-popes-involvement/

There are a lot of rumours around Rome at the moment that Ratzinger was into "hands-on" on a lot of fronts or other parts.
yes, it is un-proven. Yes, it is rude and even vulgar to say it.
yes, it is most un-kind of me to repeat hearsay in this way.
Know what? i don't give a damn, seeing as we are talking about the person single-handledly most responsible for the vatican's policies and responses to the rape and murder of children by serving, protected priests, for almost twenty years.

Irlandese

darraghwhite wrote: »

This is my first ever post on Boards, I don't usually post but i'm so mad listening to the radio coverage today talking about whether cardinal sean brady should have contacted the police or not.... HE MADE THE VICTIMS SWEAR TO KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT!!!! When there's a bank robbery, do we question whether the getaway driver should have gone to the police if he had knowledge of a crime. Its ludicrous. And don't give me this "he was just a clerk taking notes" he was a 35 year old man with a doctorate in law, taking on a bunch of kids who had been raped and buggered by his colleagues and threatening them with hell and damnation if they grassed. I couldn't give a toss if he resigns I want him to go to jail, the church is a mafia and the sooner people wake up and see it the better!

Good man or woman, do not let that silly reply from whoever it was put you off.
Brady is an evil bastard and should be jailed forthwith for abetting paedofilia and investigated very very thoroughly.
His thinly veiled threat to the Pope re not resigning unless ratzinger himself asked him to was very telling re what involved priests, bishops and possibly a pope know about what their fellow paedofile facilitators were up to and could tell if their own position was outed.

Irlandese

raindog.promo wrote: »

Oops.

I appear to have stumbled into a religious or philosophical forum when I was actually seeking a politics forum.

No mate, this is what politics in Ireland today should be discussing.
The fact that we live in a theocracy as opposed to a democracy should interest anyone with any interest in politics.
But maybe you were trying to side-track us, father ?

goat2

ei.sdraob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/now-pope-linked-to-child-abuse--coverup-2098327.html

jesus christ :eek:

rotten to the core the Church is it seems

its all over the news now

is it only now you learned this
it is old news
pope must step down

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

Why must so much religiuous stuff be in this gobbly de gook nonsensical langauage ?

Yup, when I was at school "subsist" meant to "barely survive" or "eke out a meagre living".
I suppose you could say that somewhere in all that savagery, corruption, sadism, sexual depravity and murder, a modicum of christianity, whatever that is, may be eking out a small living ??

Irlandese

Outrage wrote: »

They're called the faithful. Honourable people who left their estates and established trust funds for the eternal mission of the Church.

I'm guessing you fit into the begrudger category then eh?

I would prefer to be a begrudger than a buggerer, if that helps??

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

69 wrote: »

I can't say I'm surprised, you don't get promoted to the top of any organization without knowing how it works from the bottom up.[/QUOTE

I think Ratzinger was more invloved in the academic side than in pastoral or parish work.

Actually, he was a major bully-boy in the system, for years. He was a particularly viscious head of the curia, the enforcement arm of the church and was responsible for vatican policies, responses to and containment of paedofile priests activities for many many years.
He is rumoured/alleged/suspected of being/thought to maybe be/whatever is safe to say/ also be an active or is it passive? member of the practicing and numerous homosexual wing of the clergy, if this is relevant??

Irlandese

zod wrote: »

.

Read more: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/299368,irish-victims-of-child-abuse-angry-at-vatican-response--feature.html#ixzz0i5GG0SI1

Oh yes, he has been well known as a particularly nasty piece of work for all of his working life. The fact that he is rumoured/suspected/hearsayed to be an active member of the wide homosexual grouping within the clergy is possibly relevant in all of this.

Carry

Irlandese wrote: »

There are a lot of rumours around Rome at the moment that Ratzinger was into "hands-on" on a lot of fronts or other parts.
yes, it is un-proven. Yes, it is rude and even vulgar to say it.
yes, it is most un-kind of me to repeat hearsay in this way.
Know what? i don't give a damn, seeing as we are talking about the person single-handledly most responsible for the vatican's policies and responses to the rape and murder of children by serving, protected priests, for almost twenty years.

Oh dear, you're really on a rampage here, Irlandese, considerung your amount of replies.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm basically on your side.

But you are wrong in that there are only "rumours" and it's still "unproven". And no, it's not vulgar to say it.

There is prove for so-called rumours, at least according to certain documents which are public in the rest of the world (according to trusted publications) but not in Ireland. Strange that, innit?
In this country nobody dares to tackle the pope Ratzinger himself, or the holy see as such.

It's difficult in a country which is brainwashed by history in believing that catholism equals freedom of mind and nationality. What a joke! And who wrote that history? Go figure.

Irlandese

Carry wrote: »

Oh dear, you're really on a rampage here, Irlandese, considerung your amount of replies.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm basically on your side.

But you are wrong in that there are only "rumours" and it's still "unproven". And no, it's not vulgar to say it.

There is prove for so-called rumours, at least according to certain documents which are public in the rest of the world (according to trusted publications) but not in Ireland. Strange that, innit?
In this country nobody dares to tackle the pope Ratzinger himself, or the holy see as such.

It's difficult in a country which is brainwashed by history in believing that catholism equals freedom of mind and nationality. What a joke! And who wrote that history? Go figure.

Thanks. I was on a roll there for a bit, ok. I usually tend to read more than write, hence my low numbers, but couldn't resist after watching some of the film clips and reading the articles cited, including about that smug bastard Brady. He is begining to remind me of that rat-faced weasel cathal daly, who really makes me want to believe only is so far as I hope he is burning nicely over a spit in hell. Jesus, look what a catholic education did for me? I have to get out the buddhist prayer mat again.......

Yup, we are a priest-ridden nation, ever since that alleged/no proof/assumed by the mad to be/don't believe a word of it/whatever is safe to say...viloent paedofile Archbishop/wizard-in-chief McQuaide was allowed to edit the draft constitution and design a lot of the state architecture by that creeping sorry allegedly/whatever is safe to say/actual bastard and serious guilt-trip, jesus-freak head-case De valera.

Agh, its good to get that off my chest first thing in the morning. Now we both have to worry about the opus dei computer geek-freaks who are going to be burrowing into boards.ie to find our addresses and start our own personal witch-hunts !! Got to run......

Irlandese

Carry wrote: »

Oh dear, you're really on a rampage here, Irlandese, considerung your amount of replies.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm basically on your side.

But you are wrong in that there are only "rumours" and it's still "unproven". And no, it's not vulgar to say it.

There is prove for so-called rumours, at least according to certain documents which are public in the rest of the world (according to trusted publications) but not in Ireland. Strange that, innit?
In this country nobody dares to tackle the pope Ratzinger himself, or the holy see as such.

It's difficult in a country which is brainwashed by history in believing that catholism equals freedom of mind and nationality. What a joke! And who wrote that history? Go figure.

oN THAT LAST NOTE, MAKE SURE YOU WIPE ALL DETAILS OFF YOUR PROFILE AND ELIMINATE ALL LISTS ETC. LIKE I DO. I WAS TOLD ABOUT THE INTEREST OF CERTAIN GROUPS IN IDENTIFYING PEOPLE WHO THINK LIKE WE DO. WE ARE PERHAPS NOT ALL THAT FAR FROM THE INQUISITION IN HOLY IRELAND.

anymore

.I am and have been as critical of ratzinger as anyone, but talk about rumours is b/s. On that kind of suggestion people should put up or shut up.

goat2

anymore wrote: »

Even an RTE religous correspondent on tonight's news said that Bernard Law had been promoted to the vatican, so this new ' fall guy' can expect something as well.

if all i read here come true that pope was in that deep, it is crazy
mad, mind boggling, shocking,
have we got anyone in the top branch with a clean slate

Irlandese

anymore wrote: »

.I am and have been as critical of ratzinger as anyone, but talk about rumours is b/s. On that kind of suggestion people should put up or shut up.

Most days I would agree with you.
But when we are talking about powerful clerics who protect priest rapists and threaten children who try to report the abuse with all sorts of dire consequences if they don't shut up and move on, then, no, I do not agree.
ratzinger's personality, personal behaviours and performance as a paedofile facilitator and victim bully puts him way out there as fair game.

Irlandese

goat2 wrote: »

if all i read here come true that pope was in that deep, it is crazy
mad, mind boggling, shocking,
have we got anyone in the top branch with a clean slate

One of the worrying aspects of the vast numbers of paedofile abusers in the church and the fact that they were protected and moved around so quickly, indicates that the rings of priests, bishops and perhaps higher ups involved were operating in similar ways to the researched behaviours of other more recognised paedofile ring systems. In effect, they were clearly very numerous and they helped each other to gain positions of increasing power within their respective systems.
Given too the long history of this kind of sexual deviance and violence within the catholic church, world-wide, the perpetrators have risen to the highest power levels at country and vatican levels in that system.
So, I am afraid, we cannot really say that there is any level in the RC Church that is un-tainted by paedofilia and it's protection and promotion.
Sadly, recent press reports from the US and Germany show that the current Pope too has clearly much responsibility in at least facilitating paedofilia, if not more, through his various senior-level roles, over more than twenty years.

Hagar

Write to your TD and ask them if they running the country or letting the Church do it. Tell them if they don't do the job you'll vote for someone else who will.

Other than taking some positive action like that we are just talking in circles here.

Irlandese

69 wrote: »

Write to your TD and ask them if they running the country or letting the Church do it. Tell them if they don't do the job you'll vote for someone else who will.

Other than taking some positive action like that we are just talking in circles here.

Trouble is that all our major political parties are complicit, for years in this conspiracy against the concept of a free democracy. SF are also just as bad, taking the Adams family incest cover-ups as a clear example of where they stand on paedofilia.

It is time to ask people to subscribe to a new party of clean people committed to seperating church from all aspects of state and empowering secular alternatices to all of our corrupt theocratic systems. A big task, but worth starting on. The young hold the key. We older generations are too abused and intimidated by the church and all it's bullies and co-conspirators.

Hagar

What cover up are you talking about? Gerry took the child to th police and reported what happened.

thebman

It seems more and more like Sin City is based on Ireland TBH.

Irlandese

69 wrote: »

What cover up are you talking about? Gerry took the child to th police and reported what happened.

Ha ha. Thanks for that.
I needed a good laugh just now.
Good one. "Gerry brought the kid to the cops" !
Ha ha ha ha ha ha..........stop it will ya?
be careful where you try jokes like that up north.
They haven't gone away you know.
well, apart from Liamy anyway.........

The Raven.

There are several articles in today’s Indo about clerical abuse. It is amazing the sheer volume of complaints that are emerging. The Pope must be reeling from the shock of knowing that all of this is coming to the attention of the world at large, as new facts are being revealed on a daily basis.

This is a particularly sad one about an Italian school for vulnerable little deaf boys.

The sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church came to the Pope's doorstep last night as a group of victims appeared on Italian television to claim that two dozen priests had for decades abused children at a school for the deaf in Verona.

Three former pupils of the Antonio Provolo school who spoke on RAI, the state broadcaster, confirmed allegations made in a signed statement last year by 67 former students who described a regime of sexual abuse, paedophilia and corporal punishment from the 1950s to the 1980s. They said that 24 priests and lay brothers from the Company of Mary order were involved…

Among the accused is Monsignor Giuseppe Carraro, who was Bishop of Verona from 1958 to 1978, and who the local diocese has sought to have beatified. Gianni Bisoli, one of the victims, told the Associated Press last year that Bishop Carraro, who died in 1981, had molested him five times.

And they want to make this evil child molester a saint!!

Pope hit by abuse claims in Italian school


Pope will force Brady to resign
About time too!

Three allegations overseen by Pontiff during church career
Three scandalous cases

Stunning flood of claims held in secret diocesan archive
A shocking archive of abuse claims in Cloyne

bruce arnold: church must respect state law ahead of its own rules
‘Two laws operating in the State’

The secret scandal-hit Magee will take to grave
The ‘’Jewel in the Vatican Crown', ‘more Roman than the Romans’, ‘now disgraced’.

Where's Jakkass at? I'm surprised he's not here fighting the pope's corner.

Byron85

These people are so far removed from normal society it's almost hard to believe.

Diarmuid Martin asks Catholics to stay

Sunday, 28 March 2010 14:23
Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin has asked Catholics who are considering leaving their church because of the clerical child abuse crisis to join in taking responsibly for it from within.
Noting that these were not easy days for him personally, he underlined that the many believers who wished to journey together on the path of renewal would inevitably be embarking on a way of the cross.
He also warned a congregation at the Dublin's Pro-Cathedral that their church would be not be reformed by protestations from non-believers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0328/abuse.html

So, he's asking innocent, albeit gullible people, to take responsibility for crimes they didn't commit and then at the end he is effectively saying that if you don't believe in his particular God, you don't get to have a say in how the church should be fixed; if it is fixable at all I might add. :mad:

The Raven.

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

These people are so far removed from normal society it's almost hard to believe.

So, he's asking innocent, albeit gullible people, to take responsibility for crimes they didn't commit and then at the end he is effectively saying that if you don't believe in his particular God, you don't get to have a say in how the church should be fixed; if it is fixable at all I might add. :mad:

Diarmuid Martin ought to quit while he is ahead. He was doing fine for a while, but this kind of talk puts him back in the realms of clerical chicanery and blame switching. He is asking them to 'to join in taking responsibly for it from within'? Does he realise what he is asking? I don't know what happened in Rome, but he seems to have changed a bit since he returned.


PS. I did a spell-check on this post and Diarmuid came up as 'Dairymaid' !

Hagar

Irlandese wrote: »

Ha ha. Thanks for that.
I needed a good laugh just now.
Good one. "Gerry brought the kid to the cops" !
Ha ha ha ha ha ha..........stop it will ya?
be careful where you try jokes like that up north.
They haven't gone away you know.
well, apart from Liamy anyway.........

Clip from recent appearance on Late Late Show. He was far more honest and forthcoming than any cleric I have seen interviewed.

Don't let your politics blinker you from the truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQa_z6WJxdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4-BGX4OIw4

anymore

Irlandese wrote: »

Most days I would agree with you.
But when we are talking about powerful clerics who protect priest rapists and threaten children who try to report the abuse with all sorts of dire consequences if they don't shut up and move on, then, no, I do not agree.
ratzinger's personality, personal behaviours and performance as a paedofile facilitator and victim bully puts him way out there as fair game.

I see absolutely no reason why criticising him for his actual actions isnt sufficient to condemn him without any vague 'hint hint' suggestions or innnuendos. Dont you ?

anymore

Irlandese wrote: »

69 wrote: »

Write to your TD and ask them if they running the country or letting the Church do it. Tell them if they don't do the job you'll vote for someone else who will.

Other than taking some positive action like that we are just talking in circles here.

Trouble is that all our major political parties are complicit, for years in this conspiracy against the concept of a free democracy. SF are also just as bad, taking the Adams family incest cover-ups as a clear example of where they stand on paedofilia.

It is time to ask people to subscribe to a new party of clean people committed to seperating church from all aspects of state and empowering secular alternatices to all of our corrupt theocratic systems. A big task, but worth starting on. The young hold the key. We older generations are too abused and intimidated by the church and all it's bullies and co-conspirators.

I have seen the email and replies one colleague wrote to three Euro Tds asking them to speak out at the time of the Cloyne scandal last year and they all refused. The asy way to get irish politicians to shut up is to ask them to speak out publicy on this issue.