Ongoing religious scandals

Hotblack Desiato

Deep Denial Seminar Cancelled

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/seminar-in-dublin-church-on-tuam-children-s-home-cancelled-due-to-covid-19-1.4340503

The theme of the seminar was: “Do modern Irish historians exaggerate the role of the Catholic Church in independent Ireland” and speakers scheduled to take part included Brian Nugent, author of the book @Tuambabies: A critical look at the Tuam Children’s Home Scandal.

It challenges findings of local historian Catherine Corless concerning the Tuam Mother and Baby Home and those made there by the Mother and Baby Home Commission, published in its March 2017 interim report.

It found that “significant quantities of human remains” had been discovered there, in what appeared to be a sewage tank. The remains involved “a number of individuals with age-at-death ranges from approximately 35 foetal weeks to two to three years,” it said.

Mr Nugent was to speak on “Did home rule equal Rome rule in independent Ireland?” Another scheduled speaker was Eugene Jordan, author of False History Underpinning the Irish Mother and Baby Home Scandals. He was to give a talk on “The Tuam Children’s Home story, a failure of modern Irish historiography.”

The third scheduled speaker was Rory Connor, described as an “expert on various Commissions and Inquiries” as well as author of the irishsalem blogspot.com website. He was to speak on “False allegations of child abuse against the Catholic Church, including homicide”.

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

But, to be clear, ruling unanimously in Cardinal Pell's favour is not the same as ruling that his, or is probably, innocent; just that there is a significant possibility that he is innocent.

Innocent enough, and seemingly well enough at last, to return to Rome during a pandemic:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-pell-to-return-to-rome-this-week-74063

Catholic News Agency wrote:

Cardinal George Pell is set to return to Rome on Tuesday, his first time back in the Vatican since 2017, when he took a leave of absence from his role as prefect of the Vatican’s Secretariat for the Economy to travel to Australia. The cardinal is set to fly on Sept. 29, sources close to Pell confirmed to CNA on Sunday, following an initial report by Australian journalist Andrew Bolt in the Herald Sun newspaper.

Pell has been living in his former Archdiocese of Sydney since his acquittal by Australia’s High Court in April on charges of sexual abuse. [...]

Odhinn

The caste system, one of the great ills of the world

Protests have erupted in India over the death of a young woman two weeks after she was dragged from a field and allegedly gang-raped and tortured.
The 19-year-old was attacked while she was out cutting grass on 14 September in Hathras, a district in the state of Uttar Pradesh. The attackers allegedly pulled her into a field with her shawl, sexually assaulted her and tried to strangle her.

The woman was a Dalit, meaning she was from the lowest Indian caste. The suspects lived next door to her family and were from a higher caste.

The use of sexual violence as a tool of oppression against lower castes has been on the rise in India, particularly in Uttar Pradesh. Since September in the state there have been at last three other cases of young Dalit women and girls being raped and killed by upper-caste men. The youngest victim was three years old. Statistics show that each day in India at least four Dalit women are raped.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/29/protests-as-teenager-dies-two-weeks-after-alleged-gang-rape-in-india

Yellow_Fern

robindch wrote: »

Innocent enough, and seemingly well enough at last, to return to Rome during a pandemic:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-pell-to-return-to-rome-this-week-74063

Good for him.

Igotadose

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Good for him.

Yep, more chance at a bit more chicken little protected by the RCC.

Yellow_Fern

Igotadose wrote: »

Yep, more chance at a bit more chicken little protected by the RCC.

There is noone protected in the Vatican. That is conspiracy theory nonsense. He is a free man with no cases against him

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Innocent enough, and seemingly well enough at last, to return to Rome during a pandemic:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/cardinal-pell-to-return-to-rome-this-week-74063

Not sure how his travelling during a pandemic casts any light, one way or the other, on his innocence?

Australia is on Italy's equivalent of the Green List; travellers from Australia are generally permitted to enter Italy but must self-isolate for 14 days. It doesn't appear that Pell has been given special treatment to enable him to come to Italy.

John Hutton

Interesting development in the Pell case:

The barrister who led the defence of Cardinal George Pell says an international investigation should be launched into extraordinary claims that bribes were paid to influence the sexual assault case involving the senior Australian cleric.

Italian newspapers have claimed that Cardinal Giovanni Becciu, a rival of Pell, was suspected of paying €700,000 (A$1.1m) to an Australian witness in the case.

Robert Richter QC said it was incumbent on Australian and international authorities to investigate the allegations.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/05/george-pells-lawyer-calls-for-investigation-into-claim-bribes-paid-to-influence-sexual-assault-case

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not sure how his travelling during a pandemic casts any light, one way or the other, on his innocence?

It seems unusual that, five years ago in 2015, a cardiologist declared that "due to a pre-existing heart condition [...] it is not safe for the 74-year-old cardinal [...] to make long haul flights." However, as we know, Pell's heart held out during a subsequent flight to Australia where he was convicted of historical child abuse, a conviction which was subsequently overturned for what seems to have been legal procedural reasons. The separate Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse found that Pell knew of clerical child sexual abuse, but that he failed to take adequate action to address it.

Rumor has it that Pell is returning to "clean out his apartment" - during a pandemic, why not have removers do it, as there can't be any rush after this length of time away? However, if that rumor is true, then it shouldn't be long before Pell returns once again to Australia, thereby avoiding the fate of Cardinal Law who famously remained in Rome following his flight from Boston after it turned out that he too, knew of clerical child sexual abuse and also failed to take adequate action to address it.

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

There is noone protected in the Vatican. That is conspiracy theory nonsense.

The Vatican pseudo-state does not do extradition. It is a safe haven for clerical criminal suspects.

He is a free man with no cases against him

There should be though - conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

But we could charge almost the entire Irish hierarchy with the same thing.

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

It seems unusual that, five years ago in 2015, a cardiologist declared that "due to a pre-existing heart condition [...] it is not safe for the 74-year-old cardinal [...] to make long haul flights." However, as we know, Pell's heart held out during a subsequent flight to Australia where he was convicted of historical child abuse, a conviction which was subsequently overturned for what seems to have been legal procedural reasons. The separate Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse found that Pell knew of clerical child sexual abuse, but that he failed to take adequate action to address it.

Rumor has it that Pell is returning to "clean out his apartment" - during a pandemic, why not have removers do it, as there can't be any rush after this length of time away? However, if that rumor is true, then it shouldn't be long before Pell returns once again to Australia, thereby avoiding the fate of Cardinal Law who famously remained in Rome following his flight from Boston after it turned out that he too, knew of clerical child sexual abuse and also failed to take adequate action to address it.

Yeah, but I'm still not getting it. Despite his cardiac condition, when he was accused Pell did in fact return to face charges and trial. There was no Law-like attempt to remain in Rome - no argument over whether he could or could not be extradited; he came straight home. So whatever else you can suspect accuse Pell of, you cannot really suspecct or accuse him of an attempt to evade justice. And, right now, he's not facing any charges; he has been tried and (eventually) acquitted. And, whether you think the acquittal was right or wrong, it's conclusive; he cannot be charged and tried again for an offence of which he was acquitted. So, whatever his reason for returning to Rome is, it's not that.

Mu guess is that it probably has more to do with Vatican politics than with actual or possible Australian charges. There's no realistic possiblity of his being reappointed to his old job (or any job) in the Vatican, but his long-standing adversary has just been disgraced and dismissed, and I suspect Pell wants to be on hand to do what he can to ensure that advantage is taken of this moment to make some fresh appointments that will be commited to financial clean-up rather than financial cover-up. (Which is what he was called to Rome for in the first place.)

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

So whatever else you can suspect accuse Pell of, you cannot really suspect or accuse him of an attempt to evade justice.

While he certainly appeared to be attempting to evade justice first time around, he did subsequently travel - unlike Cardinal Law - to face the music back home. His return to Rome, allegedly to clean out his apartment after some years absence, is unusual for an elderly person with an underlying health condition in the midst of a pandemic and given his previous reluctance to appear in court, one is naturally prompted to wonder why he'd undertake a risky journey - are there further charges waiting in the wings? Something else? Who knows. Anyway, should Pell return in due course to Australia, or further plausible reasons for travel emerge, those suspicions can be put away.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mu guess is that it probably has more to do with Vatican politics than with actual or possible Australian charges.

You may well be right there as reports are now emerging that one Cardinal Becciu, a man targeted by Pell during his attempt to tidy up Vatican finances and a man heavily involved in the purchase of high-end properties in London, used €700,000 of church funds to bribe witnesses in Pell's Australian trial with a view to securing Pell's conviction - and the disposal of a troublesome rival:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/sacked-vatican-cardinal-accused-of-bribing-witnesses-in-abuse-trial-of-rival-1.4372854

If the reports are accurate, it does suggest that, in the Vatican, politics are played for keeps.

Cabaal

I am shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!

It's almost as if they care about religion more then actual children

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/c-of-e-bishops-should-lose-responsibility-for-safeguarding-children-says-inquiry

C of E bishops should lose responsibility for safeguarding children, says inquiry

Damning report says church protected its reputation above its ‘explicit moral purpose’

Yellow_Fern

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The Vatican pseudo-state does not do extradition. It is a safe haven for clerical criminal suspects.

Not true. There have been times when it is was accused but it turned the process was just being slow. I can think of no one who is evading justice there.

Poor Pell, even cardinals plotted against him.

Peregrinus

Cabaal wrote: »

I am shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!

It's almost as if they care about religion more then actual children

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/c-of-e-bishops-should-lose-responsibility-for-safeguarding-children-says-inquiry

Surely the accusation here is that they care about their reputation more than they care about their religion?

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

While he certainly appeared to be attempting to evade justice first time around, he did subsequently travel - unlike Cardinal Law - to face the music back home. His return to Rome, allegedly to clean out his apartment after some years absence, is unusual for an elderly person with an underlying health condition in the midst of a pandemic and given his previous reluctance to appear in court, one is naturally prompted to wonder why he'd undertake a risky journey - are there further charges waiting in the wings? Something else? Who knows. Anyway, should Pell return in due course to Australia, or further plausible reasons for travel emerge, those suspicions can be put away.

I dunno. To have such suspicions at all, you have to postulate "further charges awaiting in the wings". Bzzzt! Occam's razor infringement! Plus, you also have to discount or disregard real evidence, which is that Pell's established form is not to use residence in Rome as an attempt to avoid facing charges. So I'd say we don't have to wait for any further developments to put those suspicions away; we can put them away right now because, so far, they appear to be wholly baseless. And I say this as someone who is - ahem - not a fan of Pell's.

robindch wrote: »

You may well be right there as reports are now emerging that one Cardinal Becciu, a man targeted by Pell during his attempt to tidy up Vatican finances and a man heavily involved in the purchase of high-end properties in London, used €700,000 of church funds to bribe witnesses in Pell's Australian trial with a view to securing Pell's conviction - and the disposal of a troublesome rival:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/sacked-vatican-cardinal-accused-of-bribing-witnesses-in-abuse-trial-of-rival-1.4372854

If the reports are accurate, it does suggest that, in the Vatican, politics are played for keeps.

I think we knew that already!

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not true. There have been times when it is was accused but it turned the process was just being slow. I can think of no one who is evading justice there.

Here's an example

http://archiwum.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/158234

“Archbishop Wesolowski is a citizen of the Vatican, and Vatican law does not allow for his extradition,” a statement from the Holy See clarified.

This bulls**t citizenship of this pseudo-country is granted on the basis of holding a "holy office".

Dominica and Poland both wanted to extradite him, he died safely in his bed in the Vatican.

robindch

Peregrinus wrote: »

I dunno. To have such suspicions at all, you have to postulate "further charges awaiting in the wings". Bzzzt! Occam's razor infringement!

Not really. Pell could as well, after all, just be tired of all the negative media attention he's getting in Oz and wants to pass some or all of his remaining time on earth in the relative, and more clerically-appealing, peace of Rome.

The stated main reason that he's there just to pack up his stuff - well, maybe he'll do that too, but I rather doubt it's the main reason.

Peregrinus

robindch wrote: »

Not really. Pell could as well, after all, just be tired of all the negative media attention he's getting in Oz and wants to pass some or all of his remaining time on earth in the relative, and more clerically-appealing, peace of Rome.

Mmm. Pell pretty much disappeared off the media radar here shortly after his acquittal and release (which of course was widely covered). He's being much more noticed now that he's gone back to Rome, and he's being noticed in the Italian media rather than the Australian. (Of course, that could fade away pretty quickly too.)

robindch wrote: »

The stated main reason that he's there just to pack up his stuff - well, maybe he'll do that too, but I rather doubt it's the main reason.

I don't really buy the "pack up my stuff" explanation, to be honest. I think it's most likely to be connected with Vatican politics, but my favoured explanation B would be similar to yours. He's 79, not in great health, doesn't have a job and has decided he prefers to spend his retirement in Italy. He famously has many professional relationships, but no close friends and I suspect, with no job to do, and having been advised to keep a low profile, he's quite lonely. There'll be a better support network for him in Rome than in Sydney.

Hotblack Desiato

Doesn't have a job :pac:

I doubt he's signing on for the non-contributory pension.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Doesn't have a job :pac:

I doubt he's signing on for the non-contributory pension.

I don't imagine he's materially deprived. But he has no occupation. And for a man who has no family life and no friends, having no occupation would be pretty stressful.

John Hutton

I'd say there are two reasons he has gone back to Rome. Firstly, Rome is very much the centre of his faith, its a very spiritual place, I believe there is an element of pilgrimage involved.

Also, we need to remember that he was charged with basically sorting out Vatican finances and rooting out corruption. For various reasons - the fallout from which is still unfolding, not least the sacking of that other Cardinal - he was obstructed, abused, denigrated and stymied. It now looks like his work in this area is coming towards a conclusion, and vindication. Why wouldn't he want to be there to see it?

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't imagine he's materially deprived. But he has no occupation. And for a man who has no family life and no friends, having no occupation would be pretty stressful.

He's 79. Hardly anyone who's 79 is not retired. And plenty would be unmarried/separated/widowed (widowered?) and not have much in the way of close friends either.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

He's 79. Hardly anyone who's 79 is not retired. And plenty would be unmarried/separated/widowed (widowered?) and not have much in the way of close friends either.

I'm not saying his situation is unique; I'm just saying it's his situation.

Igotadose

+1 with dominatrixes(trices?), on an altar, in the church, with the priest. Filled out my RCC bingo card this morning!
Next card starting with "Priest was replacement for one previously removed due to minor-abuse sex scandal."


https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_828bb53e-09ad-11eb-9c98-fbed3af1d69a.html

Hotblack Desiato

Hey at least it's consenting adults this time.

The charge seems like bullsh!t to me, seems to be a peeping Tom's charter!

Those newfangled cheapo stained glass windows with lots of relatively large plain colour panes are too easy to see through

robindch

Igotadose wrote: »

+1 with dominatrixes(trices?), on an altar, in the church, with the priest.

Priest: What must I do to atone for this grievous sin, your worship?
Bishop: I'm going to whip you because you've been a bad priest, haven't you?
P: Yes, I've been a terrible priest and I deserve the very worst punishment, my Lord.
Bishop takes out his cat-o-nine-tails.
P: Safe word is "John Waters"
B: This is the church, laddie. We don't use safe words.
<Whipping starts>

Hotblack Desiato

Irish Times finally reporting on the death of a former Gonzaga principal, who had been facing child sexual abuse charges:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/abuse-allegations-against-ex-principal-of-gonzaga-deeply-disturbing-1.4402719

He died over three weeks ago, and The Sun reported on it on the 18th October, why the delay I wonder?

https://www.thesun.ie/news/6036338/dublin-ex-principal-dead-five-sex-assault-claims/

It's a full seven years since he was summonsed while trying to leave the country. The justice system in this country is a joke :mad:

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Irish Times finally reporting on the death of a former Gonzaga principal, who had been facing child sexual abuse charges:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/abuse-allegations-against-ex-principal-of-gonzaga-deeply-disturbing-1.4402719

He died over three weeks ago, and The Sun reported on it on the 18th October, why the delay I wonder?

https://www.thesun.ie/news/6036338/dublin-ex-principal-dead-five-sex-assault-claims/

It's a full seven years since he was summonsed while trying to leave the country. The justice system in this country is a joke :mad:

Don't disagree with anything Hotblack says, but am I the only person who is struck by the fact that the headline and the first two paragraphs of this story refer to the guy's connection with Gonzaga, and you have to get to the third paragraph before you discover that the charges against him actually relate to his time at Greendale Community School?

What's the message here? That the possibility that Gonzaga boys might have been iin contact with an abuser is more newsworthy than what seems to be been actual abuse at a less socially exclusive school?

ohnonotgmail

Peregrinus wrote: »

Don't disagree with anything Hotblack says, but am I the only person who is struck by the fact that the headline and the first two paragraphs of this story refer to the guy's connection with Gonzaga, and you have to get to the third paragraph before you discover that the charges against him actually relate to his time at Greendale Community School?

What's the message here? That the possibility that Gonzaga boys might have been iin contact with an abuser is more newsworthy than what seems to be been actual abuse at a less socially exclusive school?

There is a later story in the Sun that says that two of his accusers are from his time in Gonzaga