Ongoing religious scandals

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It isn't true to claim to present the scandal as the church vs progress.

Also not true. Enrollment is below 90% and at secondary level it is below 50%. Disinformation not cool. 2

Sources

1 John Charles McQuaid: Ruler of Catholic Ireland’ by John Cooney, page 272
2 https://www.education.ie/en/statistics/

The reports from the department of education relating to enrollment state that the majority of schools are of Catholic denomination and ethos at 89.4%, and they have seen the largest absolute increase in enrollment increasing by 42,000 since 2008

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It isn't true to claim to present the scandal as the church vs progress. Most of the gains in mother and child mortality occurred years and years before the the scheme that replaced the mother and baby scheme eventually.

The only reason people see it as a church vs progress narrative is because the chattering classes establishment was increasingly against the catholic church by that era. We know by the 1960s they were predominantly against the church.1




It is ahistorical to claim think 1950s Ireland was a theocracy when it was a democratic republic when no less than five parties and independents existed in the 1950s Dail.



Also not true. Enrollment is below 90% and at secondary level it is below 50%. Disinformation not cool. 2

Sources

1 John Charles McQuaid: Ruler of Catholic Ireland’ by John Cooney, page 272
2 https://www.education.ie/en/statistics/

One page in a secondary source is not the stunning argument you think it is, regardless of how well regarded that book is it remains one person's interpretation. Although I do appreciate that you footnoted. I'm a big fan of footnotes.

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

One page in a secondary source is not the stunning argument you think it is, regardless of how well regarded that book is it remains one person's interpretation. Although I do appreciate that you footnoted. I'm a big fan of footnotes.

It is based on a survey data conducted i the 1960s published in the book, not just a scholar making an opinion

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is based on a survey data conducted i the 1960s published in the book, not just a scholar making an opinion

It is one historian's interpretation of a primary source - which given your use of the singular appears to be one survey. An opinion is exactly what it is. Albeit a learned one.
In and of itself it is a secondary source and not the proof positive you are presenting it as.
Nor could a single survey (if it is a single survey) be considered as a definitive indication of societal mores.

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It isn't true to claim to present the scandal as the church vs progress. Most of the gains in mother and child mortality occurred years and years before the the scheme that replaced the mother and baby scheme eventually.

The only reason people see it as a church vs progress narrative is because the chattering classes establishment was increasingly against the catholic church by that era. We know by the 1960s they were predominantly against the church.1




It is ahistorical to claim think 1950s Ireland was a theocracy when it was a democratic republic when no less than five parties and independents existed in the 1950s Dail.



Also not true. Enrollment is below 90% and at secondary level it is below 50%. Disinformation not cool. 2

Sources

1 John Charles McQuaid: Ruler of Catholic Ireland’ by John Cooney, page 272
2 https://www.education.ie/en/statistics/

One of the most disingenuous, utter rubbish posts I've ever seen on Boards.

I'm not engaging with this tripe.

Hotblack Desiato

Notwithstanding the above, you have made a false accusation of providing disinformation against me.

The information I provided is factually correct in relation to the number of primary schools under Catholic Church control.
I did not mention numbers enrolled.
I did not mention secondary schools (but if you want to play that game, don't count the ETB joint patronage schools as non-catholic, either)

I request that you withdraw this scurrilous accusation forthwith.

Yellow_Fern

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is one historian's interpretation of a primary source - which given your use of the singular appears to be one survey. An opinion is exactly what it is. Albeit a learned one.
In and of itself it is a secondary source and not the proof positive you are presenting it as.
Nor could a single survey (if it is a single survey) be considered as a definitive indication of societal mores.

It is a secondary citation of a primary source.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Notwithstanding the above, you have made a false accusation of providing disinformation against me.

The information I provided is factually correct in relation to the number of primary schools under Catholic Church control.
I did not mention numbers enrolled.
I did not mention secondary schools (but if you want to play that game, don't count the ETB joint patronage schools as non-catholic, either)

I request that you withdraw this scurrilous accusation forthwith.

The correct number is below 90%. You are exaggerating to bolster your secularists are the persecuted narrative

Bannasidhe

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It is a secondary citation of a primary source.

It is still a secondary source which is what I said.
And a citation of a primary is merely mentioning such a thing exists - it is the historiography equivalent of a retweet in that it does not indicate agreement or approval.

Lookit - you made a claim and footnoted as if this was some QED moment. It wasn't. You footnoted to one secondary source - this is not proof of the validity of your argument.

I'm not sure if you have visited this forum before but we tend towards the requiring a higher standard of evidence.
If you have some kindly share it, but please don't insult the intelligent of people here by trying to position one citation in a secondary source as the final word.

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The correct number is below 90%. You are exaggerating to bolster your secularists are the persecuted narrative

Provide a proper citation then, not a link to a homepage of a website with thousands of documents.

Bannasidhe

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I request that you withdraw this scurrilous accusation forthwith.

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

. You are exaggerating to bolster your secularists are the persecuted narrative

MOD

Can you both please dial down the tetchiness a notch and keep this discussion the right side of civil?

Engage in a battle of statistics all you wish (with correct citations to back up your point obvs) but the spluttering outraged demands for retractions and the petulant digs at whole groups of people stop now.

Thanking you.
Usual caveats about replying to warning in thread apply.

Hotblack Desiato

Archbishop of Canterbury issues 'personal apology' over charity abuse

The Archbishop of Canterbury has issued a "full personal apology" to the survivors of abuse by former barrister John Smyth QC in the 1970s and 80s.

Smyth, who died aged 77 in 2018, violently beat boys who attended Christian summer camps.

Justin Welby said: "I am sorry this was done in the name of Jesus Christ by a perverted version of spirituality and evangelicalism."

Survivors who recently met Mr Welby welcomed him "taking responsibility".

In a statement issued by Lambeth Palace, the archbishop said: "I continue to hear new details of the abuse and my sorrow, shock and horror grows.

"The Church has a duty to look after those who have been harmed. We have not always done that well."

He said the Church's safeguarding team will investigate every clergyperson which they suspect "knew and failed to disclose the abuse".

The usual "we're sorry, mistakes were made, etc." although you won't be catching the catholic church doing the bolded bit any time soon, they know where that would lead

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Also not true. Enrollment is below 90% and at secondary level it is below 50%. Disinformation not cool.

Just in case anyone is still interested I went to quite a bit of trouble to dig out the actual facts and have posted them in the school patronage thread here.

Yellow_Fern

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Archbishop of Canterbury issues 'personal apology' over charity abuse


The usual "we're sorry, mistakes were made, etc." although you won't be catching the catholic church doing the bolded bit any time soon, they know where that would lead

They have done that loads of times though.

Hotblack Desiato

Those protestants, up to no good as usual

I think your reaction would be rather different if it was the RCC saying that.

Seth Brundle

Vatican sued over street art stamp

A street artist from Rome has sued the Vatican for apparently using her poster art image of Christ for its Easter 2020 postage stamp without her knowledge or approval.

Alessia Babrow’s lawsuit issued in a Rome court last month accuses the Vatican City State’s telecommunications office of wrongfully profiting off her creativity and violating the original intent of her artwork.

Babrow glued a stylised image of Christ she had made on to a bridge near the Vatican one night in early 2019.

A year later, she was shocked to learn that the Vatican had apparently used a reproduction of her image, which featured her hallmark heart emblazoned across Christ’s chest, as its 2020 Easter postage stamp.

The lawsuit, which is seeking nearly 130,000 euros (£112,000) in damages, said the Vatican never responded officially to Babrow’s attempts to negotiate a settlement after she discovered it had used her image without her consent and then allegedly sold it.
...

“I thought they were acting in good faith, that it was true they were looking for me, like had been written in the papers,” she said.
“Only it seems it wasn’t that way because they never wanted to meet with me.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/vatican-sued-over-street-art-stamp-1132318.html

Hotblack Desiato

The Altar Boys: Horrific abuse and cover-up in Australia’s Catholic Church

Irish people will find much familiar in Australian journalist Suzanne Smith’s account of the decades of horrific sexual abuse perpetrated by priests and Marist brothers in the New South Wales diocese of Maitland-Newcastle. There’s the flagrant sadism meted out by clerics to children in their care and the long-running cover-up by a church that chose to move known offenders to new parishes rather than take punitive action. Many of the protagonists – abusers, facilitators, survivors and victims alike – have Irish names; the local Catholic community, mainly concentrated in the mining and industrial city of Newcastle, were largely the descendants of immigrants from Ireland, as well as Scotland and the north of England.

You wonder if this familiarity, not to mention the similarity to other abuse scandals elsewhere, might hinder Smith’s chances of getting the attention of readers in this part of the world. But the Australian story was in some respects even more egregious than the church’s cover-up in Ireland, in that it went on for much longer, even after cases of abuse were matters of public record. Smith, herself a lapsed Catholic and who reported on many of the cases in her time as a journalist for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, notes that Ireland’s bishops issued guidelines in 1996 for allegations of sexual abuse to be referred to the police. The church in New South Wales, by contrast, would continue to fudge the issue for another decade, even persuading the police to agree to a compromised system of referrals of crimes known as “blind reporting”, where names of victims and other vital details were withheld.

The church, under Bishop of Maitland-Newcastle Michael Malone, would make noises about having reformed while continuing to prevaricate, promote known offenders and treat one whistle-blowing priest, Glen Walsh, himself a victim of abuse, with unconscionable cruelty, even as his health failed.

Walsh is one of three figures Smith centres her narrative on. All were altar boys and pupils at Catholic schools in Newcastle. Walsh’s schoolmate Steven Alward would later become a journalist and colleague of Smith’s at ABC; much to his later regret, he wrote a reference letter for his former teacher Fr John Denham in 1997, no doubt swayed by Denham’s apparent open-mindedness on gay rights. Denham would become known as the most notorious abuser of all the New South Wales clerics, being convicted on multiple counts of rape and abuse. Steven Alward was himself abused by another priest, something he kept hidden until late in life.

The third boy, Andrew Nash, killed himself aged 13 in 1974 after being abused by Br Coman Sykes; Nash’s family suffered further when three Marist brothers from his school turned up at the house soon after his death, asking if he had left a note. Pupils at the school were repeatedly told by teachers that Andrew’s suicide was a freak accident or a “prank gone wrong”.

Much of the exposure of the abuse in the Maitland-Newcastle diocese was the work of local newspaper the Newcastle Herald, particularly reporter Joanne McCarthy. This was all the more remarkable, given a brother of the paper’s editor-in-chief Roger Brock was a chief target of the investigation (though charged with 22 child sex offences in 2008, Fr Peter Brock never stood trial before he died six years later). It was a rare breach in the institutional tightness that protected abusers in the church, who had links with figures in government, business, academia and even New South Wales Rugby League.

The extent of the abuse was staggering and the human cost massive. About 964 Catholic institutions in Australia are believed to have been implicated and it is estimated that at least 60 of the victims took their own lives, including Fr Glen Walsh in November 2017, and Steven Alward, weeks before he was due to marry his long-time partner, Mark Wakely, in 2018.

There continued to be a notable lack of contrition shown by both the abusers (from his jail cell, John Denham would decry an anti-Catholic witch hunt led by the Newcastle Herald and the “virago” Joanne McCarthy) and the church itself. Glen Walsh was never forgiven for reporting paedophile priest Jim Fletcher to the police in 2004; until his death he was perennially denied a ministry and treated as a pariah. At a Chrism Mass in Newcastle in March 2015, he was taunted and verbally abused by other priests, and even his meeting with Pope Francis at the Vatican a year later appears, in Smith’s telling, to be an elaborate attempt at witness interference, ahead of his testimony in the trial of Archbishop of Adelaide Philip Wilson, charged with failing to report Fletcher’s crimes.

Since the acquittal on appeal last April of Cardinal George Pell on charges of sexual abuse, Australia’s Catholic Church has further retreated into a persecution complex, and you wonder how much introspection it has really undergone as a result of the decades of harm it inflicted on so many of its faithful.

Odhinn

An indigenous nation in Canada says it has found 751 unmarked graves at the site of a former residential school in Saskatchewan.


The Cowessess First Nation said the discovery was "the most significantly substantial to date in Canada".

The Marieval Indian Residential School operated from 1899 to 1997 in the area where Cowessess is now located in southeastern Saskatchewan.


It was one of more than 130 compulsory boarding schools run by the Canadian government and religious authorities during the 19th and 20th Centuries with the aim of assimilating indigenous youth.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592243

Akrasia

Odhinn wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592243

Pure evil. They were up to this all over the world. How could anyone stay a Catholic after all of this has come out

Igotadose

Akrasia wrote: »

Pure evil. They were up to this all over the world. How could anyone stay a Catholic after all of this has come out

Tragic, but how different than the Mother and Baby homes in Ireland? Which was much more recent (not that that excuses anything), and has a fair number of defenders here in Ireland if you look at the thread here as any indication.

Yellow_Fern

Akrasia wrote: »

Pure evil. They were up to this all over the world. How could anyone stay a Catholic after all of this has come out

Not really. The children were highly unlikely to murdered. You should wait for the facts to come in really. The order involved apologisd in 1991 and paid compensation back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laXT6DekrmU

robindch

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

The children were highly unlikely to murdered. You should wait for the facts to come in really

The fact of 751 graves has been established, which is why today:

Trudeau doesn't rule out criminal probe of indigenous school graves

https://news.yahoo.com/trudeau-doesnt-rule-criminal-probe-190256442.html

Yahoo wrote:

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau apologized Friday for "harmful government policies" and did not rule out a criminal probe after hundreds of unmarked graves were discovered at a former indigenous residential school in western Canada.

The public mea culpa for the policy of indigenous assimilation and other historical wrongs comes one day after the Cowessess First Nation said it had found at least 751 unmarked graves at the former Marieval Indian Residential School in Saskatchewan province. It was the second such discovery in less than a month.

"This was an incredibly harmful government policy that was Canada's reality for many, many decades and Canadians today are horrified and ashamed of how our country behaved, about a policy that ripped kids from their homes, from their communities, from their culture and their language and forced assimilation upon them," Trudeau told a news conference in Ottawa.

[…]

Yellow_Fern

robindch wrote: »

The fact of 751 graves has been established, which is why today:

Trudeau doesn't rule out criminal probe of indigenous school graves

https://news.yahoo.com/trudeau-doesnt-rule-criminal-probe-190256442.html

They found graves

• They have not found mass graves,
• They have not found evidence of crime
• They have not found evidence of bodies or deaths been hidden

Igotadose

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

They found graves

• They have not found mass graves,
• They have not found evidence of crime
• They have not found evidence of bodies or deaths been hidden

So, not as bad as in Tuam, eh?
Give them time. At least the order in CA has committed to sharing whatever information they have, not like I expect there to be much.

Hotblack Desiato

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not really. The children were highly unlikely to murdered. You should wait for the facts to come in really. The order involved apologisd in 1991 and paid compensation back then.

Well that's ok then :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

Trudeau doesn't rule out criminal probe of indigenous school graves

Why not here?

Tuam is a crime scene.

It's 2021 and the Gardai are still in thrall to the catholic church.

Yellow_Fern

Igotadose wrote: »

So, not as bad as in Tuam, eh?
Give them time. At least the order in CA has committed to sharing whatever information they have, not like I expect there to be much.

They news about this back 1991 and they apologised and paid compensation back then. No order in Ireland is known to be withholding records knowingly. I cant rule out some files are lost somewhere hidden but there are no known cases

Odhinn

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not really. The children were highly unlikely to murdered. You should wait for the facts to come in really. The order involved apologisd in 1991 and paid compensation back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laXT6DekrmU

Nobody has mentioned murder, save you yourself.

eire4

Odhinn wrote: »

Nobody has mentioned murder, save you yourself.

Projection maybe?

Bannasidhe

eire4 wrote: »

Projection maybe?

Mod.

Now now. No need for that. We do not as per the Charter "impute antisocial motives to other posters" in this forum.

Thanking you

Odhinn

Yet more graves

A First Nations community in western Canada has discovered the remains of nearly 200 people on the grounds of a former residential school, adding to the growing tally of unmarked graves across the country.

The school opened in 1890 and became an industrial school in 1912. According to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it was the site of recurring outbreaks of influenza, mumps, measles, chicken pox and tuberculosis. In 1969, the federal government took over the operation from the Catholic church and shut it down.
Thousands of children attended St Eugene’, including 100 from the Lower Kootenay Band.
It was run by the Catholic Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate, which operated 48 schools, including the Marieval Indian residential school at Cowessess First Nation in Saskatchewan and the Kamloops Indian residential school.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/30/canada-first-nations-unmarked-graves-indigenous-residential-school-british-columbia