Ongoing religious scandals

F12

recedite wrote: »

Nothing a bit of Viagra wouldn't sort out

That would indeed be an uplifting message from the Vatican, what with their sudden downturn and all.

Slogan: "Buy New Brand Viagra Vaticano, lifts you up when the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Amen".

robindch

The Dublin archdiocese releases figures which document that 98 of the 1350 priests who worked in Dublin over the last 70 years have been the subject of allegations of child abuse:

http://www.thejournal.ie/one-in-every-14-dublin-priests-accused-of-child-abuse-462621-May2012/

That's a rate of 7.2%, around one in every fourteen.

Cossax

robindch wrote: »

The Dublin archdiocese releases figures which document that 98 of the 1350 priests who worked in Dublin over the last 70 years have been the subject of allegations of child abuse:

http://www.thejournal.ie/one-in-every-14-dublin-priests-accused-of-child-abuse-462621-May2012/

That's a rate of 7.2%, around one in every fourteen.

I believe ISAW is doing something akin to this right now.

Hotblack Desiato

That's statistically significantly greater than 6.5%.

Edit: Damn you Cossax!!!

Delirium

No legal obligation to report abuse, bishops told

CHILD PROTECTION guidelines issued this week by the Italian Bishops’ Conference (CEI) conclude with an observation that there is no “juridical obligation” on bishops to report “illicit facts” to the police.

Basing itself on the legal terms of the 1929 concordat (renewed in 1984) between the Holy See and Italy, the document states: “Under Italian law, the bishop, given that he holds no public office nor is he a public servant, is not obliged to report illicit facts of the type covered by this document to the relevant state judicial authorities.”

The document was drawn up in response to a call last May by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) on every bishops’ conference to prepare its own guidelines document if it did not already have one.

Remarkably, the CEI, whose ultimate boss is Pope Benedict XVI, did not have such a document. More remarkably, the new guidelines indicate an apparent total failure to understand one of the most basic principles in combating paedophilia – the need to inform the relevant judicial or police authorities of individual cases.

Seth Brundle

Quelle surprise!
:rolleyes:

F12

koth wrote: »

No legal obligation to report abuse, bishops told

It reminds me of a particular episode of South Park, where these sorts of irrational and wilfully evasive arguments were being defended. Not for the faint hearted if you decide to watch it on YouTube, but this is the general blurb on the episode on Wikipedia LINK

recedite

robindch wrote: »

The Dublin archdiocese releases figures which document that 98 of the 1350 priests who worked in Dublin over the last 70 years have been the subject of allegations of child abuse:

http://www.thejournal.ie/one-in-every-14-dublin-priests-accused-of-child-abuse-462621-May2012/

The report also contains details of ten priests who it describes as serial abusers. One had 97 allegations against him. Five of the ten have been criminally convicted, and two are now deceased. Of the remaining three, one has been laicised and has no contact with the diocese. The other two are out of active ministry, and are being “supervised” by the diocese.

Why would the remaining three "serial abusers" be immune from prosecution?

MisterEpicurus

Not exactly shocking, tis to be expected from these goons I guess...

Vatican: Bishops don’t have to report child abuse to the police according to new guidelines
POSTED ON MAY 28, 2012

The Italian Bishop’s Conference (CIE) has issued guidelines on child protection that inform its bishops that they are ‘not obliged to report illicit facts’ of child abuse to the police.
The new guidelines were released recently after the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith advised every Bishop Conference to create a document covering Child Protection if they did not already have one.
One of the conferences that was void of such documentation was the CEI which works under Pope Benedict XVI.
In their new five page document which advised Italian Bishops on how to deal with paedophilia they failed to focus on one of the most important and obvious means of combating the crime – informing police authorities.
Instead the document read: “Under Italian law, the bishop, given that he holds no public office nor is he a public servant, is not obliged to report illicit facts of the type covered by this document to the relevant state judicial authorities.”
In response to the documentation US Abuse Victims’ Group Snap told the Irish Times: “Once again the Catholic Church hierarchy has missed the boat . . . These prelates had a chance to do more than the bare minimum and thus set a good example for their colleagues around the world by putting the safety of children first and foremost, but they chose instead to put the reputation of the church first.”

http://secular-europe-campaign.org/2012/05/vatican-bishops-dont-have-to-report-child-abuse-to-the-police/

fitz0

Thankfully, under Irish law, they do have to report it. If they don't, they are as bad as the child molester themselves.

Sadly ironic that an organisation that touts itself as morally guiding people should have such a skewed moral compass so as to allow this.

MisterEpicurus

fitz0 wrote: »

Thankfully, under Irish law, they do have to report it. If they don't, they are as bad as the child molester themselves.

Sadly ironic that an organisation that touts itself as morally guiding people should have such a skewed moral compass so as to allow this.

But surely they'll regard Canon Law above Civil Law? They've repeatedly made this crystal clear. If they placed the latter above the former, then surely it would undermine the concept of being a Catholic and adhering to their laws. They'll probably view this illegality as a morally unjustified secular law that they won't actually stick to.

And with the news coming out about the finance guy being sacked in the Vatican. It's amazing how quick they respond to financial dealings in the Vatican but frustratingly delay all correspondence with victims by their paedophilia ranks.

qrrgprgua

The Bishop quoted the Current Italian laws in place.. which don't oblige him..(Italian State law not canonic law) The bishops are not saying the won't report abuse.. Just that they laws should MAKE them. Abuse in Italy will be reported.

Bishops are committed to working with Authorities, But Italian law also has to be updated.

fitz0

Stop.

Just stop.

Don't you dare defend this. You can say all those nice words but history has shown us that the RCC hierarchy protect themselves. They spin their web of guilt and shame around the victims and relocate the offending 'shepards' so that their horrendous crimes aren't exposed.

If they were committed to exposing the rot in the church they would have recommended that bishops report abuse. Instead they highlighted the legal non obligation to report. Do you really think that sounds like they are encouraging the reporting of abuse?

Pwpane

Very poor reporting. Anyone have a link to the actual document?

All this says is that Italian law doesn't oblige bishops to report abuse. In Italy. Neither the Secular Europe Campaign article, nor the Belfast Telegraph article states that the Vatican does not oblige bishops to do so, so the headline seems to be false.

"If they were committed to exposing the rot in the church they would have recommended that bishops report abuse." Maybe they did. Neither site provides a link to the original document.

Don't be so keen to jump to the bait, look before you leap, and all that.

fitz0

In their new five page document which advised Italian Bishops on how to deal with paedophilia they failed to focus on one of the most important and obvious means of combating the crime – informing police authorities.
Instead the document read...

IF, in those 5 pages, they had recommended that abuse be reported, do you think it would be reported as a failure of focus?

Further reports.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0525/1224316664040.html

The document was drawn up in response to a call last May by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) on every bishops’ conference to prepare its own guidelines document if it did not already have one.

Remarkably, the CEI, whose ultimate boss is Pope Benedict XVI, did not have such a document. More remarkably, the new guidelines indicate an apparent total failure to understand one of the most basic principles in combating paedophilia – the need to inform the relevant judicial or police authorities of individual cases.

Instead, the CEI’s document reflects the extent to which some influential, often Italian figures in the Holy See, fail to understand the impact and significance of the clerical child sex abuse problem. The document does underline the “fundamental importance” of protecting minors while urging any bishop who is informed of an incident of sexual abuse to “make himself available to listen to the victim and his/her relatives”.

However, much of the five pages of guidelines are concerned with procedural norms based on the relevant CDF rulings or on canon law. It is only towards the end of the document that the CEI points out that, under Italian law, crimes related to “sexual violence, underage prostitution and child pornography” require preventative detention.

The Italian bishops concede that co-operation with civil authorities might be important: “In cases regarding this type of crime where an investigation is ongoing or where a penal proceeding [trial] has been opened according to Italian state law, the co-operation of the bishop with the civil authorities will prove very important, within the ambit of respective areas of competence and with respect for both state norms and those established by the concordat.”

The highlighted part is fairly telling. Only if there's already a case should they cooperate. But if the police don't know, there's no need to tell? But at least they'll “make [themselves] available to listen to the victim and his/her relatives”.

qrrgprgua

fitz0 wrote: »

Stop.

Just stop.

Don't you dare defend this. You can say all those nice words but history has shown us that the RCC hierarchy protect themselves. They spin their web of guilt and shame around the victims and relocate the offending 'shepards' so that their horrendous crimes aren't exposed.

If they were committed to exposing the rot in the church they would have recommended that bishops report abuse. Instead they highlighted the legal non obligation to report. Do you really think that sounds like they are encouraging the reporting of abuse?

Hold on... Stop what?? Defend what?? What are you angry against? I just translated what the current civil Italian law says.. The Church in Italy has said that Italian law should be updated to force abuse to be reported that's all.

recedite

qrrgprgua wrote: »

The Church in Italy has said that Italian law should be updated to force abuse to be reported that's all.

There is no mention of that in the article. If they are in favour of mandatory reporting, why not go ahead with it now by themselves?
Anyone with any sense of common decency would report child abuse immediately. They would not need to be compelled by the law.
All they are doing there is reassuring themselves that they are still covered by a loophole in the law which gives them immunity from prosecution for failure to report, in Italy, for the moment.
Their exact words;

“Under Italian law, the bishop, given that he holds no public office nor is he a public servant, is not obliged to report illicit facts of the type covered by this document to the relevant state judicial authorities.”

qrrgprgua

recedite wrote: »

There is no mention of that in the article. If they are in favour of mandatory reporting, why not go ahead with it now by themselves?
Anyone with any sense of common decency would report child abuse immediately. They would not need to be compelled by the law.
All they are doing there is reassuring themselves that they are still covered by a loophole in the law which gives them immunity from prosecution for failure to report, in Italy, for the moment.
Their exact words;

Yes.. And it needs to be updated... Church is not saying they are not reporting abuse.

Of course abuse should be reported,, italian law should not exempt the church... Which is what the bishops are saying.

fitz0

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Hold on... Stop what?? Defend what?? What are you angry against? I just translated what the current civil Italian law says.. The Church in Italy has said that Italian law should be updated to force abuse to be reported that's all.

I am angry with apologetic niceties regarding this latest failure on the RCC's part to address a major issue. Given their horrific record of NOT reporting abuse both by their clergy and within their parishes, how can you assert that abuse will be reported. The bishops report (or at least every news item on it as I can't find the report itself) mentions nothing about encouraging or mandating reporting of abuse.

The current Italian law may state something but clearly a church that claims moral superiority should explicitly say that the law must be informed of wrongdoing. The bishops only concede that the authorities must be cooperated with in an ongoing investigation. That reads as though if an investigation hasn't been opened that the authorities do not have to be informed.

One would think, off the back of the recent damning reports in Ireland alone, that they would be doing everything they could to stamp this out. But again they have failed to address the issue directly, only pointing out that they don't have to.

recedite

qrrgprgua wrote: »

italian law should not exempt the church... Which is what the bishops are saying.

Again, they are not saying that. Stop trying to muddy the waters.

Sonics2k

qrrgprgua wrote: »

Yes.. And it needs to be updated... Church is not saying they are not reporting abuse.

Of course abuse should be reported,, italian law should not exempt the church... Which is what the bishops are saying.

That's not what they're saying at all.

It's just another way the RCC will get out of not reporting abuse. It's not as if they have a great track record for reporting these incidents after all.

Seth Brundle

IT SAYS much about innermost Holy See perceptions that one unnamed Vatican monsignor yesterday told Turin daily La Stampa that the crisis undermining the governance of the Catholic Church “in many ways is much worse than the storm prompted by the sex abuse crisis”.
<snip>

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0530/1224316915130.html

I presume they regard it as "much worse" because child rape wasn't too much of a concern to them!

qrrgprgua

recedite wrote: »

Again, they are not saying that. Stop trying to muddy the waters.

Then believe what you like.. As usual the English speaking world takes a sentence out of context, translates it and fires it back.

why bother with a discussion if you want to hold your point of view no matter what facts a presented.

ShooterSF

qrrgprgua wrote: »

why bother with a discussion if you want to hold your point of view no matter what facts a presented.

indeed.

Kivaro

From the NY Times:

Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan of New York authorized payments of as much as $20,000 to sexually abusive priests as an incentive for them to agree to dismissal from the priesthood when he was the archbishop of Milwaukee.

A spokesman for the archdiocese confirmed on Wednesday that payments of as much as $20,000 were made to “a handful” of accused priests “as a motivation” not to contest being defrocked. The process, known as “laicization,” is a formal church juridical procedure that requires Vatican approval, and can take far longer if the priest objects.

Jesus wept.

Newaglish

Kivaro wrote: »

Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan

gooby pls

coffee_cake

Newaglish wrote: »

gooby pls

aktuly is dolan

Hotblack Desiato

fitz0

Hotblack Desiato

Dagnabbit.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/dolan

Get off my lawn!