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Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

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    #302
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,870 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Going under Trinity would've been preferable.


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    #303
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Going under Trinity would've been preferable.

    You're right, they should have looked at putting Trinity on stilts


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    #304
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.


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    #305
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,681 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.



    Right and exactly how would our public transport system function if that were the case?


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    #306
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

    I used to think this way until I did an audit of the area and concluded that the only other way for people to legally cycle east-west through the entire Grafton Street / Temple Bar area would be via the quays or Cuffe Street. About 1km. Not practical or reasonable imo.


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    #307
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,870 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    AngryLips wrote: »
    You're right, they should have looked at putting Trinity on stilts

    That's not what I said, but feel free to misquote me. :rolleyes:


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    #308
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Those streets form part of a major pedestrian artery. General through traffic and cycling should be banned from College Green and Westmoreland Street as well as Lower Grafton Street and much of Dame Street.

    So cycling from Dublin 2 to Dublin 8 would become effectively impossible unless you fancy a cycle through the dual carriageways of the quays or cuffe st/kevin st which is like competing in the hunger games, only on a bike.


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    #309
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    cgcsb wrote: »
    So cycling from Dublin 2 to Dublin 8 would become effectively impossible unless you fancy a cycle through the dual carriageways of the quays or cuffe st/kevin st which is like competing in the hunger games, only on a bike.

    In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.


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    #310
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Right and exactly how would our public transport system function if that were the case?

    I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.


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    #311
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Middle Man wrote: »
    In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.

    You realise there are up to 11k journeys made on Dublin Bikes every day, right?


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    #312
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    AngryLips wrote: »
    You realise there are up to 11k journeys made on Dublin Bikes every day, right?
    Would you care to mention how many significant pedestrian journeys are made in Dublin's City Centre? Also, cycling campaigns do not appear too concerned with the number of motorists on roads in general when it comes to narrowing traffic lanes and removing left lanes and slips for the convenience of cyclists. So as a pedestrian, I say to you, GANGWAY!


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    #313
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Would you care to mention how many significant pedestrian journeys are made in Dublin's City Centre? Also, cycling campaigns do not appear too concerned with the number of motorists on roads in general when it comes to narrowing traffic lanes and removing left lanes and slips for the convenience of cyclists. So as a pedestrian, I say to you, GANGWAY!

    Part of the diffrence: http://www.humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-almost-everything.html

    Other parts of the diffrence is that cycling offers a transport option which covers distances way beyond what most people will walk, while still being sustainable, costing both the individual and the State a fraction of public transport or motoring, zero running emissions, hardly measurable running noise, and adding to engery security.

    We're also not taking about a pedestrian area -- that's not what College Green is.


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    #314
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    The pedestrian equivalent of the M50 is in my mind, the heavily walked route that joins the major shopping precincts of Henry Street and Grafton Street via O'Connell Bridge - College Green is part of that route.


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    #315
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Middle Man wrote: »
    In the shopping/cultural districts, the pedestrian is king - simple as! If it is good enough to inconvenience many motorists for the sake of a few cyclists, then it's certainly good enough to inconvenience a few cyclists for the sake of the massive volume of pedestrians on streets such as O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, College Green etc. There's nothing stopping you from dismounting and walking your bike through major pedestrian areas. After all, just as cyclists are vulnerable to motorists, pedestrians are vulnerable to cyclists.

    But there is no pressing need to inconvenience those cyclists. If all motor traffic is removed from College Green, there'll be plenty of space to accommodate cycling and a generous pedestrian plaza. Banning cyclists doesn't add any value.


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    #316
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    cgcsb wrote: »
    But there is no pressing need to inconvenience those cyclists. If all motor traffic is removed from College Green, there'll be plenty of space to accommodate cycling and a generous pedestrian plaza. Banning cyclists doesn't add any value.

    I suppose it gives a certain type of person the opportunity to sneer.


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    #317
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Middle Man wrote: »
    The pedestrian equivalent of the M50 is in my mind, the heavily walked route that joins the major shopping precincts of Henry Street and Grafton Street via O'Connell Bridge - College Green is part of that route.

    If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths and a larger percentage of the traffic light cycle given over to the green man lights.

    Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.


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    #318
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    monument wrote: »
    If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths...<snip>

    Well the following is what I said in post #310 in response to another post...

    I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.


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    #319
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,681 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    monument wrote: »
    If to give greater priority to people walking is your main goal then you should be arguing for wider footpaths and a larger percentage of the traffic light cycle given over to the green man lights.

    Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.

    I think a little less of the "noisy" and "polluting" comment about buses might be in order, monument.

    The current fleet are all to the highest available environmental specifications - the days of Dublin buses being excessively noisy and polluting are long gone.


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    #320
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ^I think he meant it more as a contrast with bicycles.


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    #321
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Well the following is what I said in post #310 in response to another post...

    I said general through traffic - not public transport! Of course, the Luas Cross City will be going through College Green - I have been screaming for this tram line for quite some time. Obviously, some bus services will also need to go through. However, the road would have to be reduced in width to allow for major footpath expansion.

    You can reduce the roadway, increase the footpath space, have a plaza taking up half of College Green and still fit a two-way cycle path and a tram/bus lane in each direction.


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    #322
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    I agree Foster Place should be opened up and the trees there removed. Also remove the trees around the Grattan statue. They're just messy looking. Far worse than the trees on O'Connell Street ever were.

    And the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.


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    #323
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Judging the way nearby former bank buildings have gone, the old parliament building could well end up as a shopping centre :pac:


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    #324
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    I agree Foster Place should be opened up and the trees there removed. Also remove the trees around the Grattan statue. They're just messy looking. Far worse than the trees on O'Connell Street ever were.

    And the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.

    Remove trees? Sure it's the trees and parks that people admire about Dublin. I once saw the parts of Brussels that had no trees - well, I say no thanks!!! I'm not a tree hugger, but I seriously appreciate the value of trees. I know people that would love towns to go back in time, but the first thing I notice about old urban photos is the lack of greenery - again, no thanks!


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    #325
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Remove trees? Sure it's the trees and parks that people admire about Dublin. I once saw the parts of Brussels that had no trees - well, I say no thanks!!! I'm not a tree hugger, but I seriously appreciate the value of trees. I know people that would love towns to go back in time, but the first thing I notice about old urban photos is the lack of greenery - again, no thanks!

    People also admire Dublin's history and architecture. I agree trees and greenery is an essential part of a healthy city. But that doesn't mean any old haphazard tree planting is a positive.

    The College Green trees were just lobbed in there and allowed to become overgrown and gnarled. Again, that's ok in some places, but here it looks shabby and doesn't enhance the area. The trees themselves aren't particularly attractive. That's my view.


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    #326
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Tree roots can undermine underground services and foundations so trees are monitored for potential damage they may cause. Trees don't last forever and the ones on CG will eventually have to be felled. Planting trees in urban areas these days is a lot more restrictive than say twenty years ago.


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    #327
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Aard wrote: »
    Judging the way nearby former bank buildings have gone, the old parliament building could well end up as a shopping centre :pac:
    I think it would be best served as an upmarket hotel. It always seemed to me to be somewhere that should be open for public access rather than an enormous private business building slap bang in (literally) the middle of the city.


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    #328
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    seamus wrote: »
    I think it would be best served as an upmarket hotel. It always seemed to me to be somewhere that should be open for public access rather than an enormous private business building slap bang in (literally) the middle of the city.

    ...or an iconic central library for Dublin City. Is the current library still in the ILAC? So Dun Laoghaire has the iconic modernist library and it would be great if the city had a classical equivalent - such would probably be comparable to the National Library on Kildare Street - that's an amazing building!


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    #329
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,870 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    the Bank of Ireland/Old Parliament should be a museum or conference venue - wholly wasted as a bank.

    The state should have got possession of that property while it was throwing billions at the bank.


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    #330
    paddyland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    monument wrote: »
    Arbitrarily calling for a ban on people cycling bicycles while keeping large, noisly, and polluting buses in place brings up questions of your motivates.
    You know that buses are not noisy or polluting any more, in the way they were in say the 1980s, when you smelt the fumes and saw the smoke before you saw the actual bus. Modern legislation has reduced that to a most reasonable minimum. Maybe not enough for you, sitting behind one on a bicycle, but very reasonably so, all the same. Legislation gets tighter every year.

    Are you sure you aren't having your own 'motivates' (sic) in portraying them as such?


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    #331
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    paddyland wrote: »
    You know that buses are not noisy or polluting any more, in the way they were in say the 1980s, when you smelt the fumes and saw the smoke before you saw the actual bus. Modern legislation has reduced that to a most reasonable minimum. Maybe not enough for you, sitting behind one on a bicycle, but very reasonably so, all the same. Legislation gets tighter every year.

    Are you sure you aren't having your own 'motivates' (sic) in portraying them as such?

    In this context I was highlighting the silliness of another poster wanting to ban bicycles but no buses. I was not suggesting to ban buses from College Green, just pointing out that issues with the other poster's suggestion.

    Compressed natural gas buses are cleaner. So are hybrids of different mixes. Trams have zero tailpipe emissions. While things have improved, diesel is still a dirty fuel which causes major health issues for residents and works in cities. Dublin is no exception.

    The stereotype of a cyclist getting all caught up from tailpipe emissions might be a prominent one, but research shows that people cycling have a lower exposure to harmful emission that drivers and passengers.

    Re noise: I've lived beside a major road for a while -- older buses which were still being phased out were clearly the worst but the noise of modern buses was still notable among other traffic.

    It must have been hell on earth living beside a major route before buses etc improved, but these are still issues which have major affects on people. Before stricker air quality emissions come into play, the EPA has already been warning that Dublin has breached or been near to breach the current air quality standards more than a few times in the past few year. They don't even test some of the most congested areas where focused emissions can have the worst affect.


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